Book 2 – Page 112

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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:27 pm

ftl wrote:That plan has a major weak point though - wanda herself. For it to work, she has to travel all across her empire every turn.It's not impractical for someone with access to a few casters - maybe a predictamancer, or lookamancer - to set an ambush for her somewhere along the dwagon relay.

Not easy by any means. But it only takes one successful trap to set the whole empire crumbling. Someone with a second arkentool could do it.


Corpse caravans. New pops' first orders are to report to Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:30 pm

drachefly wrote:Corpse caravans. New pops' first orders are to report to Wanda.

Not a bad idea. It'd be slower, and means there would be more units alive at a given time, so the cost would be higher on upkeep, but otherwise effective.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:45 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:As for razing Spacerock, we know that Parson could do that on his turn for sure, but we don't know if he can do that off turn or not. I'd guess not, to prevent a side razing a city just before an enemy they know can beat them shows up at their doorstep.
Why would you guess that something prevents that? Nothing prevents people from doing that in real life. Erfworlders have always been shown to have great freedom within their own city, even when it's not their turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:47 pm

0beron wrote:
drachefly wrote:Corpse caravans. New pops' first orders are to report to Wanda.

Not a bad idea. It'd be slower, and means there would be more units alive at a given time, so the cost would be higher on upkeep, but otherwise effective.

Not much slower, if the only places you pop units that can't be relayed are close to Wanda herself. Those that can't be relayed by dwagon on account of not knowing how to ride or being heavy can probably be relayed by steamboats (or not?). And of course there's always popping non-speaking units for rations to cover upkeep, which does not so far as we know hit any diminishing smuckers limit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:34 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:As for razing Spacerock, we know that Parson could do that on his turn for sure, but we don't know if he can do that off turn or not. I'd guess not, to prevent a side razing a city just before an enemy they know can beat them shows up at their doorstep.
Why would you guess that something prevents that? Nothing prevents people from doing that in real life. Erfworlders have always been shown to have great freedom within their own city, even when it's not their turn.

Mostly because you would run into situations where an enemy is about to capture a poorly defended city, and then you would suddenly raze it to deny it to them. This would make ever capturing a city very difficult, and from what we've seen of Erfworld, it seems like capturing and razing enemy cities is a main form of income. I mean, if you could raze cities off turn, then all you'd have to do is have six scouts surround every city you own, then if any of the scouts dies, just raze the city to deny it to the enemy. Now, you wouldn't do this with your main cities of course, but it would be a great way to handle small cities that you would otherwise occupy with a relatively token force.

Of course, this may be a case of no one has come up with that system because erfworlders seem gifted with a lack of out-of-the-box thinking. And there are of course drawbacks, because you might end up having to raze the city to deny a force that was so small you'd have been able to fight them off otherwise, but overall it seems like a reasonable strategy for a side like Haffaton that is large and needs to maintain cities with minimal defensive troops. So, not like I have any proof or anything, just more of a feeling.

Edit: Oh, and to prevent Wanda being ambushed - place a single uncroaked unit (scout) on each hex of the Dwagon flight paths. If any of the units are killed, you know that path is potentially unsafe.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:22 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:And there are of course drawbacks, because you might end up having to raze the city to deny a force that was so small you'd have been able to fight them off otherwise, but overall it seems like a reasonable strategy for a side like Haffaton that is large and needs to maintain cities with minimal defensive troops.
Haffaton wouldn't be a large side for long if they surrender every city site immediately to any force that approaches, even friendly forces that have no intention of attacking. Remember that unled units will attack any unallied units they encounter. Even if they manage to successfully hold on to the city site without the benefit of defensive walls, I'm certain that rebuilding a city costs much more than the shmuckers that you get from razing it, so that strategy would probably be hugely expensive.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby davidj » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:02 pm

LordAcme wrote:They actually can wait for GK's turn tomorrow. Bodies that have been moved are considered trophies and don't depop (Book 0). They'll decay, but that doesn't appear to be a consideration because of Decryption.


Checkov's gun suggests that having this rule means Parson's going to use it....maybe? I didn't think of it yesterday.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:08 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:And there are of course drawbacks, because you might end up having to raze the city to deny a force that was so small you'd have been able to fight them off otherwise, but overall it seems like a reasonable strategy for a side like Haffaton that is large and needs to maintain cities with minimal defensive troops.
Haffaton wouldn't be a large side for long if they surrender every city site immediately to any force that approaches, even friendly forces that have no intention of attacking. Remember that unled units will attack any unallied units they encounter. Even if they manage to successfully hold on to the city site without the benefit of defensive walls, I'm certain that rebuilding a city costs much more than the shmuckers that you get from razing it, so that strategy would probably be hugely expensive.

Scouts have been shown to be able to avoid the auto attack thing, otherwise they'd be quite useless at scouting if they just died any time they found any sort of units. And the scout, if placed right at the hex border with the city for example, would likely be able to get some form of intel report on enemy numbers or intent before being found and croaked (if the force is hostile). Like I said, this could lead to problems with losing cities to otherwise fightable enemies, but given the non-existent level of defense in Haffaton cities, that doesn't seem like a serious loss. And razing a city and then rebuilding it is alot cheaper than having an enemy capture a city, raze it, then you still have to rebuild it. At least you get some portion of the cost recouped by razing it yourself, not to mention denying the enemy those funds.

So yeah, not a perfect system, but potentially exploitable, especially by someone like parson (Thinkamancer makes the scouts able to give instant reports. If he gets a Predictamancer to help him out, she could tell him if a city will be attacked or not, then preemptively raze it, etc.) So, it might or might not be allowed, but my gut says it wouldn't be, though we really don't know.
davidj wrote:
LordAcme wrote:They actually can wait for GK's turn tomorrow. Bodies that have been moved are considered trophies and don't depop (Book 0). They'll decay, but that doesn't appear to be a consideration because of Decryption.

Checkov's gun suggests that having this rule means Parson's going to use it....maybe? I didn't think of it yesterday.
It's already been used by Wanda in Book 0.
Last edited by Taikei no Yuurei on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:19 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Scouts have been shown to be able to avoid the auto attack thing, otherwise they'd be quite useless at scouting if they just died any time they found any sort of units.
Does anyone remember approximately where that was shown? Book 1, Page 40a, Klog #4 seems to say that it's not true. "Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:26 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Scouts have been shown to be able to avoid the auto attack thing, otherwise they'd be quite useless at scouting if they just died any time they found any sort of units.
Does anyone remember approximately where that was shown? Book 1, Page 40a, Klog #4 seems to say that it's not true. "Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals."

Book 2, Page text 56
But now Rachel was gone, and there was no-one to tell her what to do. Scouts don’t autoengage if they can hide, and she could hide really, really well. Better than she could fight. So...she should do that, right? Made sense. Made perfect sense.


Also, additional proof in Book 0 page 5, where the scout that Wanda spotted didn't engage the Goodmitton stack. It theoretically could have been a Warlord, but using a Warlord for scouting seems.... highly expensive.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby LordAcme » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:26 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Scouts have been shown to be able to avoid the auto attack thing, otherwise they'd be quite useless at scouting if they just died any time they found any sort of units.
Does anyone remember approximately where that was shown? Book 1, Page 40a, Klog #4 seems to say that it's not true. "Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals."


Book 0, Wanda's first combat action - a scout watched her and her bro ride by.
Book 2, the scout Archon disguised as a chimney explicitly states the rule in her own head.
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