Magic Physics and Golems

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:53 pm

Another way to look at it could be that the different axis are power sources. In real life, wind, water, burning minerals, or nuclear can all create electricity. In D&D conguration and evocation seem to have some effects that are the same, in the ability to damage targets. Techincally you could use evocation to create a fireball, conjuration to conjure something that is hot, summon something that breathes fire. Different ways to achieve the same outcome.

It might be that dirtamancer uses power in matter in order to create a gollem, and dollamancy uses power from motion or energy in order to achieve the same effect. Some things only matter can do, some things only motion can do, some things only life can do, but some of the effects that the axis do could be the same.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:43 am

Lilwik wrote:Things people say are the only reliable sources for this sort of thing. If we only see magic doing a thing, that evidence is so indirect that it is practically useless. All it tells us is that magic can do a certain thing, but not why magic can do that thing. It doesn't tell us which axis or element that ability comes from. The only way to answer why questions like that is to have it explained to us by casters.
If that were really true, then they would never disagree on things, and there wouldn't be debates in the magic kingdom at all. The casters wouldn't be wrong, or unsure. It's one thing for us to see a first person perspective relayed to us by narration, but another thing entirely to assume that them making theories up without testing is some how valid just because they are casters. They don't know how their magic works. It's a fact of the setting. That's why scientists like Isaac exist. It's why Sizemore can't explain Dirtamancy to other Stuffamancers, and why he has unprovable theories about decryption. It's why he isn't a master yet. He doesn't know how Dirtamancy works either.

Shai_hulud wrote:I can't see a reason why blending elements would annoy Olive, and she was clearly annoyed. Surely she denied that Matter and Motion could be used to create units that had Life and Maxwell was trying to prove her wrong. It would be foolish for her to deny that casters whose disciplines normally aren't thought to include Life could use Life magic, since everyone knows that casters can cast outside of their disciplines, and that would have nothing to do with the supremacy of Life magic.
That isn't what I said. I said she seemed to be bothered by bleeding of discipline functions, I.e. creating consciousness without using a life spell. Not that they were creating a living unit by using Life magic. Why would that ever bother her? It wouldn't prove her theories wrong.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Another way to look at it could be that the different axis are power sources. In real life, wind, water, burning minerals, or nuclear can all create electricity. In D&D conguration and evocation seem to have some effects that are the same, in the ability to damage targets. Techincally you could use evocation to create a fireball, conjuration to conjure something that is hot, summon something that breathes fire. Different ways to achieve the same outcome.
So like the difference between chemical furnace and an induction furnace?
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:27 pm

Well, as for applying force when they hit something, it's basically that they would continue doing the reshaping thing, and would move your face (or whatever) out of the way to allow for the reshaping, just like a dirtamancer might push someone or something out of the way when reshaping dirt underneath them.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:19 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:They don't know how their magic works. It's a fact of the setting. That's why scientists like Isaac exist.
They still know far more than we know, and probably more than we will ever know, even if they aren't always right. They pop with more knowledge than we will ever know, and accumulate more from there. If you had a caster in the room with you right now, would you try to figure out how magic works by having that caster perform magic and examining its effects, or would you ask the caster questions? Magic may be impressive to see, but it is totally opaque about its inner workings.

Shai_hulud wrote:I said she seemed to be bothered by bleeding of discipline functions, I.e. creating consciousness without using a life spell.
For there to be a debate on that foundation Maxwell must have held the position that consciousness was created without using a Life spell. Neither of them had the position that Life is a vague classification and that the spell probably had a little bit of Life in it, such as by Life and Motion actually overlapping. Instead Olive rejected the idea that the golems were really alive, and apparently she was right.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:24 pm

Lilwik wrote:If you had a caster in the room with you right now, would you try to figure out how magic works by having that caster perform magic and examining its effects, or would you ask the caster questions? Magic may be impressive to see, but it is totally opaque about its inner workings.
You're... kidding right? I would do fucking science to it! We already know the casters have only the barest understanding, and if they were generating an effect not covered by their senses they wouldn't be able to tell. That's why there is a debate about whether Matter casters summon or create. They don't know. I'm not sure how else to state this. That's why I'm using the narrator as the only objective source of info. G-strings are real. They're waves in the firmament. These waves are made of "numbers." It's like you're saying I have eyes, so therefore I have an education in optics, and furthermore no blind alien scientists could ever figure out what a photon is, so they should just give up and ask me (It's threads from the sun god's hair for the record). :|

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Well, as for applying force when they hit something, it's basically that they would continue doing the reshaping thing, and would move your face (or whatever) out of the way to allow for the reshaping, just like a dirtamancer might push someone or something out of the way when reshaping dirt underneath them.
So exactly like the T-1000 then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf2dn3m7yPU NSFW(violence) See when you said stop motion, it made me think you were implying that the matter actually disappears and new matter is conjured on the other side in a thin layer. I take it that's not what you meant at all?

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Another way to look at it could be that the different axis are power sources. In real life, wind, water, burning minerals, or nuclear can all create electricity. In D&D conguration and evocation seem to have some effects that are the same, in the ability to damage targets. Techincally you could use evocation to create a fireball, conjuration to conjure something that is hot, summon something that breathes fire. Different ways to achieve the same outcome.
Err wait. Doesn't summoning just pass the source off to something else? That still didn't explain how the critter can breath fire in the first place (tongue based evocation somatic gestures?). Sorry, just nitpicking from boredom. (Or no, gastrointestinal flammable gas conjuration!)
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:52 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I would do fucking science to it!
Magic in Erfworld seems to be largely a mental process, determined by the mind. Juice isn't something that can be weighed and it seems to have no volume. The majority of the science you could do to magic would be in asking the caster questions in much the same way that psychology is studied, because the majority of the experience of magic is something that only the caster experiences, such as the special senses that go along with being a caster. If you don't ask questions you would be limited to crude measurements from instruments like FMRI scanners.

Shai_hulud wrote:We already know the casters have only the barest understanding,
Where do we know that from? They act like the know magic quite well. Parson has recognized that Erfworlders are weak at science, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Erfworlders are wrong about the things that they seem to know; it just makes them poorly equipped to discover new things. Do you really suspect that the knowledge that units have when they pop may contain lies? Is there something you can cite that clearly shows ignorance of magic?

Shai_hulud wrote:It's like you're saying I have eyes, so therefore I have an education in optics, and furthermore no blind alien scientists could ever figure out what a photon is, so they should just give up and ask me
If you were an Erfworlder then you really would have a guaranteed education that was given to you when you popped. I expect Erfworlders aren't popped with educations about optics, but casters are certainly popped with educations about magic and they have each done far more magic than we will ever witness. Unless there is some indication that the popped knowledge can be wrong, we'd be foolish to ignore it when we have so few ways to investigate magic.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby drachefly » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:02 am

A medieval engineer would have had the barest understanding of statics or dynamics, but they could still aim a trebuchet or build a cathedral (aiming a trebuchet is not simple).
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:46 am

Lilwik wrote: Unless there is some indication that the popped knowledge can be wrong, we'd be foolish to ignore it when we have so few ways to investigate magic.

Ok I see the problem. I'm including popped information as info relayed to us through them by an objective source (the titans?) I'm not including things that they say are true, but we have no proof that they really actually popped knowing instead of say, learning it in the magic kingdom (which is filled with idiots canonically.) So yes, I agree that Wanda can sense and cause pain, but we also know that the way she probably does that given current information is by manipulating neurons. The same goes for Shockamancy. Falling counts as shockamancy according to whom? Jack, who is brain damaged, and got his "higher" education in a crazy bubble kingdom. Wanda herself never claims her direct damage spells are shockamancy, I think, until after she visits the magic kingdom. The only thing we have actually seen Shockamancy do, is lightning bolts and stun spells, and maybe the flash. We have heard plenty of non shockamancers say they are doing shockamancy, but until we get a text update where Rob gives us first person sensory data about it like dirtamancy, thinkamancy, foolamancy and croakamancy, I'm going to assume that despite their claims, the only thing we can reliably state as non shockamncers is that they can totes shoot lightning and stun people. As far as I'm concerned, it's the only reasonable way to make educated guesses about the physics and powers of the setting. I'm not saying that they are completely wrong about everything, I'm saying they are wrong about advanced details of their own and other branches of magic. Just look at the number of people who refuse to even talk to Wanda because she is a croakamancer. You can't really try to say that any of them really know how her magic works. I'm in agreement that they have super senses and that the chart is probably constructed in universe based on comparing those senses (Predictamancers and Thinkamancers both having "intuition" for instance) but how often do they actually sit down and try to work it all out? The answer appears to be almost never.

The above is why I've literally got a chart right here at home with lines drawn between each discipline and those lines covered in shared senses/powers like matter conjuring, higher dimension senses, blindness, mental spaces, electricity powers etc. to examine correlation and similarities between magic types. But anything that isn't certain, or actually seen by the reader, doesn't go on the chart yet no matter how many people in or out of universe say it's the truth. Just look at how people on the forums thought that foolamancy was image magic, and now we have Jack diving into peoples hallucinations. Holograms don't go on the chart next to foolamancy anymore, but weird mental powers do now (or to be more precise, the image power was clarified with further details.) We also know thinkamancers use something called "thinkspace." Therefore 2/3 of eyemancy is at least partly mind magic. Resulting prediction: lookamancy will be part mind magic too. Findamancy, flower power, and hat-magic all either teleport or see other dimensions and are all Erf Life magics. Prediction: lookamancy will involve higher spatial dimensions in some way as part of it's mechanism. If these are both true, the chart can probably make other useful predictions too, like the Periodic table of elements.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:26 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm not saying that they are completely wrong about everything, I'm saying they are wrong about advanced details of their own and other branches of magic.
But you don't actually know that and ignoring one of our few sources of information is probably going to prevent you from ever getting a complete picture of how magic works in Erfworld. Unless you have actual reasons to think that a particular Erfworlder is misinformed or lying about a particular subject then you should assume that information supplied by Erfworlders is accurate, because otherwise you have no hope of properly understanding Erfworld.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:29 am

So yeah, bored of where this discussion went. Back to the original topic.

So been thinking about the name Komatsu, and the amorphous golems. You suppose you could have the sludge golems crawl into tubes and function as living hydraulic fluid? You know, make some nice construction equipment? Could he make lubricants that apply themselves to parts when needed?
Also notice how he is lifting those rocks on this page in panel 10. Do you suppose there are floating islands like in Avatar? Or just floating rocks? Maybe Sizemore could animate the terrain or architecture. After all, some mountains are scaled, others are slain.
Your thoughts?
Last edited by Shai_hulud on Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:21 pm

Thread Croakamancy!
So, we now know that Dirtamancy can sense a sensory and response network inside of a Cities structures. My new theory is that Dirtamancy Golems are using the same mechanisms as those that make a City function, but in much finer detail than the structures of a city. Tiny pressure sensor Traps wired to a central "brain" act like a sense of touch on an organic hand. (If you linked a Dirtamancer and a Croakamancer, could you Uncroak a Razed City?) This "brain" then sends signals to an unknown mechanism in the body, which either causes the rock or metal of the body to change, or triggers a mechanical part like a piston. This is what provides the unit with it's locomotion. The Golem is thus pretty much a stone robot. Or perhaps to put it another way, the difference, in Dirtamancy, between a Golem and an item or structure is that the Golem can move.
Problems:
I have no idea how this would work with an amorphous structure like a Crap Golem. But then I have no idea how a magic T-1000 would work either.
I also have no idea what's generating and storing the "Move" points, which opens all sorts of weird scenarios, like Dirtamancy vehicles and mount relays.

Your thoughts?
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