Magic Physics and Golems

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:57 pm

So. Pretty bored of reading people talking about Free Will™ at this point. Lets talk about something else instead... Golems and magitech science! I wanna hear your theories about how golems work. Here's mine:

So there are 3 kinds of golems so far. They are all animate, but only two of them have Motion. Two are Erf magic, but one is Fate magic. I'm going to ignore Hat Magic golems for the moment (the reason for which will become clear at the end).

We have several pictures of dolls and dirts. The thing that strikes me most immediately is that all dolls we have seen have either been made from flexible materials, or have had joints. The dirtamancy golems don't. Even in the new erfabet art, we can see the dirts don't have working articulation, but the dolls do. On top of this, one of the disciplines next to Dollamancy on the chart, Croakamancy, seems to work by using magical locomotion to enhance muscles as seen here:
But the craft of the Croakamancer was to understand the body's condition, its functions, its strengths and weaknesses. The Croakamancer could conserve the fuel of the body by focusing her juice upon the mechanisms of its movement, repairing and augmenting them with magic.
My theory is thus; that the so called G-Strings function in both Dollamancy golem bodies, and certain uncroaked like the skeletons, as a synthetic muscle system. When the strings contract, they pull on the "skeleton" of the unit providing mechanical means of motion. This is why the Dolls must have joints if they aren't made of flexible materials.

On the other hand we have the jointless Dirtamancy golems. Dirtamancy is Erf magic, which in Book 0 is partially explained here:
This thread was being drawn up by the system of the world. Thinkamancers knew it as a "Grandiocosmic string." Its numbers were being shaped and guided by the firmament, by what magic theorists called the Erf Axis.
I propose that whatever mechanical force is moving the Dirt golems, the enchantment isn't the G-String based muscles of a Doll, but instead has something to do with the "firmament" and in fact has no direct analog to a musculature system. Further support of this theory is the fact that unlike any dolls scene so far, the crap golems appear to be completely amorphous, held in their shape by magic rather than any rigidity.In addition, this rock golem appears to be healed in such a way that it's body is mearly being held in shape, but the arms still move without joints. I further propose that this same "kind" or class of enchantment is also behind the hat golems, rather than Hat Magic having a unique form of animation for it's golems.Which is all to say, I have no idea how the dirts are moving, but am betting it's a mechanism that doesn't require actual working joints. The biggest problem with this theory is we have never seen a dirt golem (other than the tin golem) in Xin's art style.

The only unit not taken into account with this theory is the tchotchke. And currently we don't really know what they are.

So, this is my crazy theory about how the golems work in-universe. You like it? If not, what's yours?

Edit*
Added more Dirtamancy golem thoughts.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:00 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I propose that whatever mechanical force is moving the Dirt golems, the enchantment isn't the G-String based muscles of a Doll, but instead has something to do with the "firmament" and in fact has no direct analog to a musculature system. Further support of this theory is the fact that unlike any dolls scene so far, the crap golems appear to be completely amorphous, held in their shape by magic rather than any rigidity.
It's impossible to say anything with certainty, but from what we know it seems to me that you probably have it backward. It's the dirt golems who are moved by magic, with magic standing in for their muscles. The fact that Dirtamancy golems are amorphous indicates that they have no real muscles and only magic could be moving them, with the magic functioning as a substitute for muscles. I wouldn't be surprised if Dirtamancy golems deteriorate like uncroaked if they don't get repeated juice from a Dirtamancer the way normal units need upkeep; since Stuffamancy is not Motion magic, only a continuous supply of juice can allow it to move and they probably can store juice in their bodies.

On the other side we have Motion magic which can create moving things without continuous juice. Croakamancy seems to concern itself with all of the bits of the croaked unit, probably including muscles. We have no indication that the muscles are unnecessary, so I expect that uncroaked use their muscles just like any other unit. Dollamancy seems to be able to create all sorts of crazy moving units that probably use artificial joints and some sort of artificial muscle the way croakamancy uses real joins and real muscles. I wonder what is required to maintain dolls, since they have no Life I expect they don't need upkeep like an ordinary unit.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:06 pm

I think you are putting too much real world thought into this. Erfworld doesn`t have physics, just things happening because some rule says so. It is more equivalent to a virtual reality world where everything is perception, then a world where forces of nature have any sort of cause and effect. In some sort of online game your character does not move because of muscle joints pushing the character forward. It moves because you pushed the up arrow, and the computer translates that into showing visual movement that looks like walking. Erfworld is similar, only you have thoughts instead of a keyboard. What happens in erfworld is based on a rule book, and not physics.


And dirtamancy is defined as being Erf magic. That dose not need to mean it only does erf magic, only that it mostly does erf magic. It seems that casters are mostly inside one axis or another, but can do other magic in order to fit their theme. There for you have weird stuff happening, like dollamancers being able to enchant all clothing types except for a hat, and hat magicians cannot have you pull messages out of a shoe. But using normal fantasy terms dollamancers would probably be called item enchanters, which does fit the fate magic theme. And hat magicians would be conjurors , which does fit erf magic. But then in Erfworld the castors are given silly themes, and then the theme defines more what they can do then the axis of magic.

So dirtamancers primarily do erf magic. They create permanent cities, and create permanent tunnels. They change terrain. These are the key uses of a dirtamancer, and therfore it makes sense to say their discipline is in the erf magic axis. But creating golems, particularly crap golems, sounds like fate magic. That is probably what it is.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:25 pm

Sir_Dr_D wrote:I think you are putting too much real world thought into this.
There's no such thing as thinking too much about Erfworld. It is one of those stories that rewards you for thinking.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Erfworld doesn`t have physics, just things happening because some rule says so.
The real world has that too; that is the foundation of physics as a field of study.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:In some sort of online game your character does not move because of muscle joints pushing the character forward.
I wonder if a wounded unit with damaged muscles or joints would agree with you about how Erfworld works.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:And dirtamancy is defined as being Erf magic. That dose not need to mean it only does erf magic, only that it mostly does erf magic.
Erf is an axis, and the meaning of the axes is still rather mysterious. In this case it makes more sense to look at the elements which are better understood and we know pretty well that magic doesn't stray from its elements. Olive considers magic without Life to be strictly inferior and not because those disciplines have only a small amount of Life; she was certain that non-Life magic could never create a living Unit, and in the end it seemed she was correct. So instead of thinking of Dirtamancy as limited to Erf, think of it as limited to Matter.

Edit: The page I am thinking of is this one: Book 0, Episode 56. Now that I read it again, I'm not so sure I understand elements as well as I thought I did. For one thing, the elements are called axes, which makes six axes in total, to my surprise. Another thing is that Maxwell was the one bringing golems to life and that somehow proved something about Life magic not being special, when we know that Thinkamancy is Life magic. As I should have realized, magic in Erfworld is always more complicated than I think it is.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:55 pm

Dirtamancy is defined as being on the Matter axis (or what ever the term is) and on the Erf axis. Yet animating golems would take motion, and fate , similar to a dollamancer. The primary responsibility/essense of a dirtamancer is terrain manipulation , which is what puts it on the erf/matter axis. To try to find reasons why everything that a dirtamancer does is matter but not motion, will lead to a lot of contradictions. It makes the most sense to say that Dirtamancy is limited to plays on the word 'dirt'. The axis's seem like just rules of thumb guidelines

We dont know a lot about injury rules yet in erfworld. In real life most injuries would have the person fight worse. In most games people fight at full capacity until their hitpoints reach 0. I am assuming Erfworld works similar to these games, but their is no proof either way. We know that units limbs can get decapitated. But the rest of their limbs still work at full functioning. Which is not how it works in real life at all. Units don't bleed, which implies a circulatory system is not needed. Which implies muscles don't work the way they do in real life. Organs in a body have about as much use, as all the empty buildings have in an erf city. They are there to simulate real world concepts, in a game like fashion. What matters in erfworld is what the game rules say. There is no cause and effect phsyics. Only simulations.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:12 pm

Lilwik wrote:It's impossible to say anything with certainty, but from what we know it seems to me that you probably have it backward. It's the dirt golems who are moved by magic, with magic standing in for their muscles. The fact that Dirtamancy golems are amorphous indicates that they have no real muscles and only magic could be moving them, with the magic functioning as a substitute for muscles. I wouldn't be surprised if Dirtamancy golems deteriorate like uncroaked if they don't get repeated juice from a Dirtamancer the way normal units need upkeep; since Stuffamancy is not Motion magic, only a continuous supply of juice can allow it to move and they probably can store juice in their bodies.

On the other side we have Motion magic which can create moving things without continuous juice. Croakamancy seems to concern itself with all of the bits of the croaked unit, probably including muscles. We have no indication that the muscles are unnecessary, so I expect that uncroaked use their muscles just like any other unit. Dollamancy seems to be able to create all sorts of crazy moving units that probably use artificial joints and some sort of artificial muscle the way croakamancy uses real joins and real muscles.
Interesting theory, but then I must ask, if the uncroaked only use muscle systems for locomotion... then how do the skeletons move?

Sir_Dr_D wrote:I think you are putting too much real world thought into this.
Keep in mind that I'm one of the people who messes around with redstone in minecraft, though never to this degree.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Erfworld doesn`t have physics, just things happening because some rule says so.
This not only isn't true, it in fact has been an actual plot point. I.e. dwagon drops only work because things "fall" as a rule/physics property. Rob has also listed several other aspects of the settings physics, which might become important later. And even if they don't, why wouldn't you spend your free time thinking up how to build magical kill bots?

Lilwik wrote:Erf is an axis, and the meaning of the axes is still rather mysterious. In this case it makes more sense to look at the elements which are better understood and we know pretty well that magic doesn't stray from its elements. Olive considers magic without Life to be strictly inferior and not because those disciplines have only a small amount of Life; she was certain that non-Life magic could never create a living Unit, and in the end it seemed she was correct. So instead of thinking of Dirtamancy as limited to Erf, think of it as limited to Matter.
Sizemore doesn't think that this is true. See here. Quoted relevant text:
Touching the spade to the grass of Portal Park put Sizemore directly in touch with Erfworld. He sensed the physical world in deep, primal ways which he found difficult to convey to other casters. Even Changemancers and Dittomancers would stare at him blankly when he described it, though they too practiced forms of Stuffamancy.


Lilwik wrote:Edit: The page I am thinking of is this one: Book 0, Episode 56. Now that I read it again, I'm not so sure I understand elements as well as I thought I did. For one thing, the elements are called axes, which makes six axes in total, to my surprise. Another thing is that Maxwell was the one bringing golems to life and that somehow proved something about Life magic not being special, when we know that Thinkamancy is Life magic. As I should have realized, magic in Erfworld is always more complicated than I think it is.
I think the logic was that Maxwell wasn't claiming that he was bringing the golems to life, only that he was boosting the casters (Barton & Komatsu) intellect to the point that they could do it. The fact that the golems stopped working was what allowed Olive to claim the link did more than increase smarts/caster rank.
Anyway, part of the reason that a was thinking about this was the fact that starting to think about terrain as bodies in different positions is something that Sizemore thinks might help him become a master dirtamancer. And that got me thinking about what, exactly, the difference between the two main golem/elements/axes types might really be.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Dirtamancy is defined as being on the Matter axis (or what ever the term is) and on the Erf axis. Yet animating golems would take motion, and fate , similar to a dollamancer. The primary responsibility/essense of a dirtamancer is terrain manipulation , which is what puts it on the erf/matter axis. To try to find reasons why everything that a dirtamancer does is matter but not motion, will lead to a lot of contradictions. It makes the most sense to say that Dirtamancy is limited to plays on the word 'dirt'. The axis's seem like just rules of thumb guidelines

We dont know a lot about injury rules yet in erfworld. In real life most injuries would have the person fight worse. In most games people fight at full capacity until their hitpoints reach 0. I am assuming Erfworld works similar to these games, but their is no proof either way. We know that units limbs can get decapitated. But the rest of their limbs still work at full functioning. Which is not how it works in real life at all. Units don't bleed, which implies a circulatory system is not needed. Which implies muscles don't work the way they do in real life. Organs in a body have about as much use, as all the empty buildings have in an erf city. They are there to simulate real world concepts, in a game like fashion. What matters in erfworld is what the game rules say. There is no cause and effect phsyics. Only simulations.
Almost everything here is either unsupported by evidence in setting, or is actually contradicted by the text. No time right now to go through everything here.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:55 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I must ask, if the uncroaked only use muscle systems for locomotion... then how do the skeletons move?
Good point. Considering that, I'm sure that Croakamancers are able to animate croaked units in much the way Dollamancers can animate lifeless materials. I still think that Croakamancers use the muscles of a unit when they can be repaired enough to function, but that's not the only trick that Croakamancers have.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Dirtamancy is defined as being on the Matter axis (or what ever the term is) and on the Erf axis. Yet animating golems would take motion, and fate , similar to a dollamancer.
The fact that Dirtamancy can animate golems seems to prove that wrong. All we really know about dirt golems is that they are moving dirt of various kinds, and we all agree that moving dirt is the core feature of Dirtamancy. The fact that Dirtamancy doesn't have Motion isn't evidence that the dirt doesn't move; instead we need to take it as a clue about the meaning of the Motion element of magic and what it implies about a discipline that has it. It raises a question about the nature of magic in Erfworld: What is the difference between the motion caused by Dirtamancy and the motion caused by Dollamancy? I don't know the answer, but there must be one since they both cause motion but only one of them is Motion magic.

Similarly, what is the difference between units created with Fate magic and units created without Fate magic? Popping seems to be some sort of natural Fate magic, so I might expect all magically created units to be Fate magic, except that we know this isn't true. Fate magic disciplines that we know can create units: Dollamancy and Croakamancy. Erf magic disciplines that we know can create units: Dirtamancy, Flower Power, Hat Magic. Numbers magic disciplines that we know can create units: Dittomancy. We know that Dittomancy units are very temporary, but Croakamancy units are also temporary. Flower Power seems to be able to create units just as real as popped units, but it might be limited to plants that already exist in the terrain.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:To try to find reasons why everything that a dirtamancer does is matter but not motion, will lead to a lot of contradictions.
That sounds like defeatism to me. In time of war that might be called treason.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:In real life most injuries would have the person fight worse. In most games people fight at full capacity until their hitpoints reach 0. I am assuming Erfworld works similar to these games, but their is no proof either way.
See Book 0, Episode 47 for proof that injuries work like real life to some degree.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Units don't bleed, which implies a circulatory system is not needed.
Combat isn't nearly as messy in Erfworld as it is in real life. I strongly suspect that all croaking is violent and the only way a unit can die nonviolently is disbanding. So even though units have blood, they don't bleed because it is impossible to bleed to death, even from internal injuries, and the concept of infection probably doesn't exist. If you survive a battle neither croaked nor incapacitated, then there is no chance of croaking later from your wounds.
Sir_Dr_D wrote:Which implies muscles don't work the way they do in real life. Organs in a body have about as much use, as all the empty buildings have in an erf city.
That is not implied. It might be true, but it's speculation unless you can cite evidence.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:38 pm

Lilwik wrote:Good point. Considering that, I'm sure that Croakamancers are able to animate croaked units in much the way Dollamancers can animate lifeless materials. I still think that Croakamancers use the muscles of a unit when they can be repaired enough to function, but that's not the only trick that Croakamancers have.
Oh sure, sure. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Dollamancers can also make things like motors, comms (that really let you hear allies!), and springs (that really shoot arrows like real life!), just like I would bet money that Croakamancers can create Frankenstein monsters and cyborgs. I was just saying that muscle stuff to contrast the dolls with the skeleton warriors to help explain my line of thinking.

Lilwik wrote:What is the difference between the motion caused by Dirtamancy and the motion caused by Dollamancy? I don't know the answer, but there must be one since they both cause motion but only one of them is Motion magic.
This is about what I was thinking.

Lilwik wrote:Croakamancy units are also temporary.
Well... except they can be "repaired." And that's only at the novice level.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:To try to find reasons why everything that a dirtamancer does is matter but not motion, will lead to a lot of contradictions.
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=410

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Which implies muscles don't work the way they do in real life. Organs in a body have about as much use, as all the empty buildings have in an erf city.
Olive's poison caused death via organ failure by destroying the nerves in Atoms heart, and Wanda was described as having to reconstruct neurons and attach them to muscle tissue in order to make his limbs move again.

Lilwik wrote:and the concept of infection probably doesn't exist.
Nope, Wanda says that there is such a thing as disease here:
Wanda did not reply, but didn't think she needed to. Love, as a force of nature, was something she knew almost nothing about. What little she'd heard and read of it was baffling and contradictory. It seemed like a disease one could catch. There were different kinds, and they made you strange in different ways, often involving Loyalty. The disease was going around. Perhaps Larry had been infected, and probably Tommy had, but Wanda didn't think Olive had it.


This. This is how I imagine Wanda making the uncroaked dance. Is it weird that I think that makes her kind of hot?
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:10 am

Shai_hulud wrote:Well... except they can be "repaired." And that's only at the novice level.
Even with a Croakamancer repairing them they can't last forever. I can't think of a page to cite for that, but I'm sure it's been made clear at some point.

Shai_hulud wrote:Nope, Wanda says that there is such a thing as disease here.
Yes, that's well spotted. Thank you for the correction; I had completely forgotten about Tommy's very peaceful croaking, which proves my attempt at simplification was foolish. We've never seen any instances of disease, but I expect that if Flower Power can poison people then there is probably some discipline of magic that can spread infectious diseases. I guess that it might be Healomancy.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:09 pm

Or Date-a-mancy ;)
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:20 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Or Date-a-mancy ;)


Gross, but funny. But I think one of the advantages of living in Erfworld, is it is free of that sort of disease. No need to worry about any consequences. ;)
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Sir_Dr_D wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Or Date-a-mancy ;)


Gross, but funny. But I think one of the advantages of living in Erfworld, is it is free of that sort of disease. No need to worry about any consequences. ;)
Pretty sure there's Date-a-mancy disease. See this quote from Wanda again:
Wanda did not reply, but didn't think she needed to. Love, as a force of nature, was something she knew almost nothing about. What little she'd heard and read of it was baffling and contradictory. It seemed like a disease one could catch. There were different kinds, and they made you strange in different ways, often involving Loyalty. The disease was going around. Perhaps Larry had been infected, and probably Tommy had, but Wanda didn't think Olive had it.
Not sure why you think love is gross. You were talking about the love bug, right? ;)
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:56 pm

So I read this during my lunch break, and have been thinking about the dirtamancy golems since, and I think I have a solution, reasoning, or theory as you like. Dirtamancy can move things, but cannot make things that move of their own accord since dirtamancy doesn't touch in motion at all. Sizemore can of course move dirt around, but that isn't Motion, that is simply movement. Sort of like how a spell that might create an anvil over someone's head has it fall because of gravity, because of movement, but not because it has Motion of its own.

How then does a dirtamancy move? How does it move itself without Movement? It is the same way that it is created in the first place. You must realize that a stone golem for instance is not something that is carefully sculpted by hand with painstaking work, then animated. Instead it is formed from the stone itself, given shape by magic and the caster's will. And it is that gift of shape, of Stuff made real, Stuff aligned with Erf that allows for movement. When a golem moves its arm, it is not truly moving the arm, instead it is changing its shape so that its arm goes from one position to another in series until it has reached its desired position. Think of it like the individual frames of animation in a cartoon. The character didn't -actually- move from one frame to another, the character was simply drawn in a slightly different position, and a fast series of those changes creates the illusion of movement. Similarly, the stone golem doesn't actually move from one position to another, but instead readjusts its shape, just as happened when it was first created, so that it reaches its desired position. A limit to how much it can adjust its form, and how quickly, is what limits the speed of golems and prevents them taking forms that we wouldn't recognize as 'the same'.

Anyway, that's just my thinking on the subject. Actually, instead of animation, think of it as claymations. The clay figures aren't moving themselves, they don't have Motion, but they certainly appear to be moving, because an outside force (magic in the case of golems, modelers or whoever in the case of claymations) is changing their shape.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:02 pm

And just to point out again, there is no proof that dirtamancers have no access to motion. At most we have a chart, that Parson wasn't even sure was accurate, that classifies dirtamancers of being on the matter axis. In real life , psycology is classified as being in the arts, yet so much of it sounds like science. Science and engineering have so many parallels, etc. Nothing says the classification is perfect. At most it may mean that dirtamancers specialize in the matter axis. And since erfworld caster types seem to be based on puns, and have access to abilities that don't seem related to each other (such as hat magicians being able to put enchanments on hats that seem identicale to dollamancer enchanments, or turnamancers being able to make wheel boats) , it is a valid theory.

It can be fun to make up theories on why cloth golems are considered motion but rock golems are not. And the theories on this thread have been quite good. I can add another one. It might mean that rock golems are not full units, and only work as accessories to a dirtamancer. If a side loses their dirtamancer all the golems may become inert. Or it might mean that rock golems cannot cross hex boundries and are connected to the hex they were made in.

But I am going to go with the theory that rock golems involve motion. And Dirtamancers primary responsibility of manipulating terrain being so heavy into the matter axis, is the reason dirtamancers are classified into it.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:22 pm

I don't know, I like the idea of rock golems punching people stop motion style. :D
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:34 pm

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Nothing says the classification is perfect.
The whole conflict between Olive over the golems who acted like people suggests that the classification is perfect. It would have been meaningless if the Life classification of magic were fuzzy, so at least the Haffaton casters thought that classification was perfect, and that suggests that they all might be perfect.

We have nothing similar in the story suggesting the classifications aren't perfect, so I strongly suspect that they are perfect classifications that are based on the underlying structure of magic in Erfworld until we see evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:21 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Anyway, that's just my thinking on the subject. Actually, instead of animation, think of it as claymations. The clay figures aren't moving themselves, they don't have Motion, but they certainly appear to be moving, because an outside force (magic in the case of golems, modelers or whoever in the case of claymations) is changing their shape.
See, that's what I thought too at first. Kind of like the T-1000 from the terminator movies. But then I had trouble reconciling how they appeared to be applying kinetic force during their attacks, as seen here and here. Can you think of a way to explain this? At least the T-1000 extending blades from it's body clearly applied force, which is what lead to my amorphous matter theory for the crap golems.
Lilwik wrote:[The whole conflict between Olive over the golems who acted like people suggests that the classification is perfect. It would have been meaningless if the Life classification of magic were fuzzy, so at least the Haffaton casters thought that classification was perfect, and that suggests that they all might be perfect.
Well they didn't. That's why they were arguing in the first place. That's why I'm mostly trying to use things we have seen or gotten from a narrator, not things people say. It's why I'm still not convinced that "damage" like falling and hitting your head is really shockamancy. We've only seen/[i] them use lightning and mental shock effects.
Lilwik wrote:We have nothing similar in the story suggesting the classifications [i]aren't perfect, so I strongly suspect that they are perfect classifications that are based on the underlying structure of magic in Erfworld until we see evidence to the contrary.
Well... Moneymancy can create troops and matter, or at least they appear to. Maybe they just summon it?
Edit* minor edits. Oops ninda'd
Last edited by Shai_hulud on Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:59 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Well they didn't. That's why they were arguing in the first place.
What they were arguing about was the relative powers of the various elements of magic, not whether they could be blurred together. See Book 0, Episode 56:
Wanda: "That the axis of Life was not special. That it held no particular supremacy over the Motion or Matter axes."
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:06 pm

Right... but we've never seen a Life spell that effects meat, brains, and organics yet. I think their debate is more about "what's thought" than about units being "alive." It was more that the units could think that was bugging her as a hippie. She seems to think Life spells control thought and others, while they can create bodies, couldn't make a mind. And thus why she seems to be so smug that his death caused them to stop thinking. Creating thinking units without life would be blending them as far as she thought. Maxwell disagreed. And he was wrong. Also he died.
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Re: Magic Physics and Golems

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:21 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:That's why I'm mostly trying to use things we have seen or gotten from a narrator, not things people say.
Things people say are the only reliable sources for this sort of thing. If we only see magic doing a thing, that evidence is so indirect that it is practically useless. All it tells us is that magic can do a certain thing, but not why magic can do that thing. It doesn't tell us which axis or element that ability comes from. The only way to answer why questions like that is to have it explained to us by casters.

Shai_hulud wrote:Creating thinking units without life would be blending them as far as she thought.
I can't see a reason why blending elements would annoy Olive, and she was clearly annoyed. Surely she denied that Matter and Motion could be used to create units that had Life and Maxwell was trying to prove her wrong. It would be foolish for her to deny that casters whose disciplines normally aren't thought to include Life could use Life magic, since everyone knows that casters can cast outside of their disciplines, and that would have nothing to do with the supremacy of Life magic.
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