Book 2 – Page 108

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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Doctor Foreman » Mon May 06, 2013 8:51 am

Cnor wrote:
Doctor Foreman wrote:
Cnor wrote:Do we know if the Turnamancy that Charlie pulled actually affected turn order or not? It seems like the same effect could have been achieved by pulling GK's turn to a place in the order that he found more advantageous, rather than just ending it...


That would probably be an unwise move as it would give GK one and a half turns in the day (seeing as they already had a chunk of one turn).


Remember, though, the corollary to... Rule 13, I think?... is that creating additional problems generates additional business. So, if Jetsone and co. take them out, great! Goals served! If not, they've now hired him and have additional issues to deal with in the form of GK getting another turn and things being a mess because all of a sudden they're going at a different time.


I doubt Charlie would prioritize extra business from Jetstone over crushing Gobwin Knob, nor risk Parson getting an extra turn in the day should he somehow evade the assassination attempt.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Kreistor » Mon May 06, 2013 9:37 am

On the subject of the Doombat:

It is unlikely the Doombat counts as an "enemy" unit, or it must in some way not count towards many things. A Scout is useless if it cannot go undetected. Since the Doombat Scout is in Battlespace, the mere failure of Turns to be simultaneous when enemy units are in close proximity destroys the capacity of Scouts to sneak in and do their job. You know that a Scout is present when your Turn is separate, so you search for him until he's dead. You've gto all the time in the world. The only way for Scouts to be effective is if they do not trigger different Turn order when they are secretly inside Battlespace.

Consequently, I think that we can presume that at some point, Rob will make the Rules of Scouts (and how they affect Turns and Hex occupancy) clear later. There must be Rules on them he has not revealed, simply because we know they must not give themselves away in the first place.

[Edit: added brackets to ease reading of one sentence.]
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Urf » Mon May 06, 2013 9:54 am

Yes! Exactly. The ending of turn brings on Night, but the lack of information regarding "Night" turns it into a Schrodinger Catbox. Can Night be shortened to occur in a moment?

And now that GK owns the hex, can the RCC close their turn TWICE, seeing as they're now the challenger.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby effataigus » Mon May 06, 2013 10:21 am

0beron wrote:...
When Efbaum was taken by Faq, Olive was shackled (in the airspace), but not in such a way as to prevent her from flying on her broomstick. The question becomes whether the shackles fail to prevent flight or failed for Olive since she is not typically a flying unit (unlike a bat).

I'm guessing Bunny's loyalties are no more divided than Maggie's, which is to say that they may be strongly divided.

The main reason Bunny cannot solve this problem for Parson is that it doesn't really fit with the story. Parson has only himself to blame for his current problems, so he's got to solve them himself.

Finally, as many of us have pointed out, Parson doesn't have to be terribly creative yet. Dwagons can take to the sky. If the infantry can get on their backs, great. If not, then he can cast the scroll on them. If the scroll can only target one thing, then send the infantry to DIAF (they're goners either way). Bingo... alone in the Garrison. Turn, and make a new side and a new portal (if the summoning spell lets him).

This is assuming there are no special rules for founding a new side that do not also apply to re-founding a side that used to exist.

IIRC, Transylvito goes before every side with a known turn order except Charlescomm. However, they are currently allied with the RCCII, and go on Jetstone's turn. Nobody knows for certain whether Kingworld truly ended, or just moved, GK's turn. Stanley did say "ended," but who really knows.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby 0beron » Mon May 06, 2013 11:27 am

vintermann wrote:One possibility I just thought of: Charlie is a carnymancer.
It has been confirmed in Book 0 that Charlie is indeed a Carny by origin.

effataigus wrote:When Efbaum was taken by Faq, Olive was shackled (in the airspace), but not in such a way as to prevent her from flying on her broomstick. The question becomes whether the shackles fail to prevent flight or failed for Olive since she is not typically a flying unit (unlike a bat).
Ah yes, thanks for that reminder. I'm assuming Olive's capacity to retain flight was due to a combination of 2 factors. 1) She was flying using an item rather than an innate special, and 2) she is an enemy commander on-turn, so something like the fugitive rules apply.

effataigus wrote:IIRC, Transylvito goes before every side with a known turn order except Charlescomm. However, they are currently allied with the RCCII, and go on Jetstone's turn. Nobody knows for certain whether Kingworld truly ended, or just moved, GK's turn. Stanley did say "ended," but who really knows.
Yes, I just can't remember whether they only allied with the RCC on this turn, or if the alliance is older than that. Because if the alliance was made on this turn, then they still would have gone early, and would not presently be on-turn. As for what Kingworld does, I think it makes sense that it ended turn. I imagine it'd be hard to trick a Ruler's Natural Thinkamancy even for Charlie, and also like a previous post pointed out, delaying GK's turn would actually benefit them since they'd get a turn and a half basically.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby drachefly » Mon May 06, 2013 3:13 pm

mroozee wrote:I suspect the bat survived by flying; putting it somewhere in Jetstone's Airspace and once the Garrison fell, the bat would be captured automagically.


Remind me - was Olive captured automagically?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Mikalyaran » Mon May 06, 2013 3:46 pm

Hi guys and gals. Haven't posted in a while but I just went through and re-read from start to finish! Reminded me why I love this comic so much. I forgot how many time Parson's mentions this being like the Wizard of Oz for him. I think our writer might like that story :)

I was curious if anyone had discussed/considered that the Arkensdish might allow Charlie to scry another dimensions and that is how he recognizes slang/netspeak. Issac saying that the Arkendish was the greatest tool of observation in the text update where he finds maggie's message is what got me thinking. Any thoughts?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby 0beron » Mon May 06, 2013 4:43 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:I was curious if anyone had discussed/considered that the Arkensdish might allow Charlie to scry another dimensions and that is how he recognizes slang/netspeak. Any thoughts?

It's a possibility that has definitely been discussed before. No real way to prove it at this point, until we know more about the Dish and know conclusively where he came from.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon May 06, 2013 5:05 pm

I agree that Parson does seem to have the mechanical ability to get all other GK units out of the garrison, which should allow him to turn into a barbarian and capture the city, turning all the GK units into prisoners, allowing him to found a side. However, it is not a small detail that this would require ordering the decrypted soldiers standing next to him, who just fought alongside him and screened pew-pew for him, to run through fire.

Psychologically, it would be easier for him to make Antium the ruler of the new side and have everyone surrender (not turn) to Antium. This might even fit with his natural thinkamancy better, since everyone but Antium would remain a GK unit, and Antium's survival would depend on ransoming Parson back to GK. (I hope this would still be recognized as lateral thinking even though it's been discussed here.)

I'm envisioning Parson running back into the MK and saying, "Spacerock is an inferno. King Antium has formed an alliance with Gobwin Knob. In return, I agreed to fetch Sizemore and Wanda to save his city and side." (Spacerock maintaining independence from Jetstone ironically depends on hosting a GK decrypted army.)

drachefly wrote:Remind me - was Olive captured automagically?

Yes, she was. The complication for Faq was that prisoners who are commanders can make escape attempts.

I don't recall where I got this impression, but I have the impression that prisoners are subject to their captor's orders, with unclear limitations.

Kreistor wrote:On the subject of the Doombat:

It is unlikely the Doombat counts as an "enemy" unit, or it must in some way not count towards many things. A Scout is useless if it cannot go undetected. Since the Doombat Scout is in Battlespace, the mere failure of Turns to be simultaneous when enemy units are in close proximity destroys the capacity of Scouts to sneak in and do their job. You know that a Scout is present when your Turn is separate, so you search for him until he's dead. You've gto all the time in the world. The only way for Scouts to be effective is if they do not trigger different Turn order when they are secretly inside Battlespace.

Consequently, I think that we can presume that at some point, Rob will make the Rules of Scouts (and how they affect Turns and Hex occupancy) clear later. There must be Rules on them he has not revealed, simply because we know they must not give themselves away in the first place.

[Edit: added brackets to ease reading of one sentence.]

Since battlespace is dependent on upcoming interaction (via natural predictamancy), not proximity, it could be that a hypothetical fireproof doombat could have ended up in the battlespace precisely because of being the last RCC2 unit in the garrison, when it otherwise would have remained outside the battlespace. This would still require scouts to be an exception in the sense that a scout seeing something wouldn't trigger battlespace, whereas a non-scout seeing a scout or being affected by a scout would.

In this particular case, I imagine the doombat croaked or took to the air before Clonely croaked, so if it is alive, it became a prisoner. Via the example of Faq, prisoners are probably a known exception to the rule Charlie summarized.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby auraseer » Mon May 06, 2013 8:16 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Psychologically, it would be easier for him to make Antium the ruler of the new side and have everyone surrender (not turn) to Antium.

It's an interesting idea, but Antium has the same problem Parson does. If he wants to make a new side, he will have to turn barbarian first, and then he can't claim the capitol because the GK units will be enemies in his hex.

If Parson can turn barbarian and also contrive to have all other units in the hex go barbarian at the same time, that would remove the necessity of having the other units die or leave. The capitol would be claimable. But odds of that appear pretty small, because it appears to take something special to turn one of the Decrypted.

Then again... what if Wanda goes barbarian? If Parson leaves GK, Maggie will presumably know about it on her mental status display, and she can tell Wanda in person without having to use a (blockable) Thinkagram. Wanda could go barbarian and take all the Decrypted with her, which would then free Parson to claim the capitol. Odds are again low, but man, wouldn't Stanley throw a fit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby tgriff02 » Mon May 06, 2013 8:27 pm

effataigus wrote:For the current or former WoW players among us... Parson is screaming in raid chat to wipe it up so he can feign death and rez.



THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is AWESOME! It hadn't occured to me, becuase i"m not seeing the mechanics of how to pull it off, but that an awesome theory, lol. :lol: :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby zbeeblebrox » Tue May 07, 2013 12:39 am

Zippy the Squirrel wrote:
Oreo2483 wrote:...all parson and his troops need to do is mount his dwagons and fly up into the airspace above the city...


That might work for the infantry, but Parson is a Heavy unit, and can't use flying mounts.

It always makes me happy to see my art used as a citation XD

I'm not going to bother with predictions, cuz this could really go in any direction. But I do want to make a few observations:

1) Parson is not a runner. He threw Ruthlessness in the volcano, so there's no WAY he's going to just abandon his troops. If he casts that scroll before the fire does them in, that would very much go against his character, so it can't happen. Which isn't to say he definitely won't cast it, just that there are some pretty huge contingencies.

2) Parson is also not one to sit around hoping other people solve his problems. Since Charlie's got his eyebook tied up, he can't afford to assume anyone else is fixing this. He will want to find a solution that helps as much of his side as possible, no matter how drastic it is, and he's not going to wait to do it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby AVVV » Tue May 07, 2013 4:44 am

This may have been discussed to death before but I haven't noticed it:

I am guessing now that a) Stanley will move the capital and b) that is perfectly fine by Charlie.

Charlie acts like he really, really wants Parson to cast the scroll - which suggests to Parson that he should look for alternatives. Charlie even interrupts the thinkagram a bit too late on purpose, to further make Parson think that moving the capital would be something Charlie doesn't want. Parson is in a bit of a hurry and does not have time to think it through. Then on his turn Charlie would presumably capture the weakly defended garrison. I'm not up to date with what is known about what would happen to GK units in that situation: I'm guessing Stanley and his stack at least would survive (as barbarians?), as well as any casters in the Magic Kingdom, including Parson by then. Then the plan could proceed with capturing the Arkenhammer, I guess.

So Charlie would be pushing for Parson to choose between three win-situations for Charlie: DIAF, read the scroll, or move the capital. This would be an acceptable time for Parson make a brilliant surprise move (I still remember warmly how pleasantly I was surprised by the trick in the battle for Gobwin Knob - it was a great combination of having dropped enough hints that it felt natural and right, but still had me completely by surprise), but I think it would be more interesting to see Charlie have a major victory this time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby multilis » Tue May 07, 2013 4:52 am

AVVV wrote:...

So Charlie would be pushing for Parson to choose between three win-situations for Charlie: DIAF, read the scroll, or move the capital.

Move capital may be a predictable loss for Charlie.

Stanley hates Charlie. Middle of book 0 has Wanda's very weak side surprise attacked and fall quickly, still time enough for ruler to promote Wanda to heir and ask her to avenge. Parson with the powers of ruler is much more dangerous, can sense and order every unit on his side and might inherit most of GK's units.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby youngstormlord » Wed May 08, 2013 4:20 pm

Moving Capital has problems of it own. You actually have to physically be inside capital to do it. It is not hard to imagine the following scenario:
1) GK (side) moves the capital from GK(city) to Spacerock(city). RCC2 besieges it immediately.

2) Jetstone (side) or RCC2 take/capture the city of Spacerock (new GK Capital)

3) Whole GK (side) goes barbarian! Until...

4) Stanley claims another capital site/city as The Capital city.

And the thing is, there can be a lot of time between steps 1 and 2, with Stanley mounting the offensive to break the siege of his new Capital, while everyone else ganging on his other towns. And, when he is one hex away from reaching the besieging forces, (if he chooses to lead the forces himself, which he would have to do) BAM! The city falls and whole side goes barbarian, disbanding any forces not in his personal stack or in remaining cities. Imagine a warlord other than Stanley leading the counter-siege and dying on the spot with all his units a just a hex away from his enemies.

WIN/WIN/WIN for Charley. In fact, even if Parson survives, forget moving between cities without being in Stanley's personal stack.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Wed May 08, 2013 4:52 pm

youngstormlord wrote:Moving Capital has problems of it own. You actually have to physically be inside capital to do it. It is not hard to imagine the following scenario:
1) GK (side) moves the capital from GK(city) to Jetstone (city). RCC2 besieges it immediately.

2) Jetstone (side) or RCC2 take/capture the city of Jetstone (new GK Capital)

3) Whole GK (side) goes barbarian! Until...

4) Stanley claims another capital site/city as The Capital city.

And the thing is, there can be a lot of time between steps 1 and 2, with Stanley mounting the offensive to break the siege of his new Capital, while everyone else ganging on his other towns. And, when he is one hex away from reaching the besieging forces, (if he chooses to lead the forces himself, which he would have to do) BAM! The city falls and whole side goes barbarian, disbanding any forces not in his personal stack or in remaining cities. Imagine a warlord other than Stanley leading the counter-siege and dying on the spot with all his units a just a hex away from his enemies.

WIN/WIN/WIN for Charley. In fact, even if Parson survives, forget moving between cities without being in Stanley's personal stack.


Do we know what happens if a multi-capital side loses its current capital? I think the examples we've seen of sides going barbarian have been with single-capital sides (Goodminton, GK threatened, old FAQ), and of course Jetstone managed to move theirs before Spacerock fell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed May 08, 2013 5:04 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:Do we know what happens if a multi-capital side loses its current capital? I think the examples we've seen of sides going barbarian have been with single-capital sides (Goodminton, GK threatened, old FAQ), and of course Jetstone managed to move theirs before Spacerock fell.

What's really interesting is that until Charlie called, Jetstone wasn't planning to move its capital even though it was evacuating Spacerock. That suggests that it's not catastrophic to lose a capital if there's a back-up capital site.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby youngstormlord » Wed May 08, 2013 5:13 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:
Do we know what happens if a multi-capital side loses its current capital? I think the examples we've seen of sides going barbarian have been with single-capital sides (Goodminton, GK threatened, old FAQ), and of course Jetstone managed to move theirs before Spacerock fell.

There are no multiple Capitals. There are towns with the potential to be Capitals, but that's it.
If your Overlord/King is not in one of those towns when your current capital falls to claim it as a capital, the whole side turns Barbarian (everyone inside other towns and in Overlord's personal stack. Everyone else just croaks, except possibly heir and his/her stack). You can see Stanley trying to do it by flying to reach Faq to claim it, the moment GK(town, not side) fell and he turned barbarian. (Faq site, not town. But even if he owned the town, he'd still have to be inside and say "I proclaim this town a new capital of the Side." if the original capital fell. Or he could've just gone Jetstone route and transfered capitals directly, without going barbarian first) Probably.

What that means is that you can't send anyone else to relieve the siege of your capital. You have to send either Ruler or (probably) Heir. That was the whole point of Book 2; Gobwin Knob tried to do a decapitation strike on Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Doctor Foreman » Wed May 08, 2013 5:43 pm

youngstormlord wrote:Moving Capital has problems of it own. You actually have to physically be inside capital to do it. It is not hard to imagine the following scenario:
1) GK (side) moves the capital from GK(city) to Jetstone (city). RCC2 besieges it immediately.

2) Jetstone (side) or RCC2 take/capture the city of Jetstone (new GK Capital)

3) Whole GK (side) goes barbarian! Until...

4) Stanley claims another capital site/city as The Capital city.


If Stanley's in Gobwin Knob at 3), he can just claim that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby youngstormlord » Wed May 08, 2013 6:06 pm

Doctor Foreman wrote:
youngstormlord wrote:Moving Capital has problems of it own. You actually have to physically be inside capital to do it. It is not hard to imagine the following scenario:
1) GK (side) moves the capital from GK(city) to Spacerock (city). RCC2 besieges it immediately.

2) Jetstone (side) or RCC2 take/capture the city of Spacerock (new GK Capital)

3) Whole GK (side) goes barbarian! Until...

4) Stanley claims another capital site/city as The Capital city.


If Stanley's in Gobwin Knob at 3), he can just claim that.


Which is missing the point I made below the list. They have him by the balls while Spacerock (GK's new underdefended Capital) is under siege. In fact, they can do whatever they want unless... Can you raze your Capital for shmuckers? Can you intentionally end your side/turn your side barbarian by that act?

Edit: I just realised that Jetstone's capital was named Spacerock. Could have saved a lot of E-trees in my first post. Retconjuration away!
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