Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Vreejack » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:03 am

bladestorm wrote:maybe the Dish didn't always summon Archons. Maybe before Charlie got ahold of it, it summoned flying monkeys.


It would be more likely that before Charlie got it, it didn't summon anything. Maybe it still doesn't summon anything. Maybe archons are a creature type that can be popped in that city. Or maybe Charlie has bent the rules to allow the popping of archons. Or maybe archons are a type of flying monkey.
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby NYbear » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:24 am

Vreejack wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Well keep in mind that right now it is still unverfied whether or not the archons are in fact related to the arkendish. The archon's themselves were unable to answer the question for parson when he asked; so its left ambiguous at best.
That would be a very important point if it happens to be true. Can you cite a reference? How can the archons not know this? That would be like Ansom not knowing he was decrypted using the arkenpliers.


Here's your reference: http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE046_NoIllustration.png

Did Charlie pop anything but Archons? No. The capital could pop one every turn, or three every two turns if they had hired a Turnamancer. Few other cities could pop Archons at all, and all of those required multiple turns. This might or might not be a function of the Arkendish.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Swodaems » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:11 pm

NYbear wrote:
Vreejack wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Well keep in mind that right now it is still unverfied whether or not the archons are in fact related to the arkendish. The archon's themselves were unable to answer the question for parson when he asked; so its left ambiguous at best.
That would be a very important point if it happens to be true. Can you cite a reference? How can the archons not know this? That would be like Ansom not knowing he was decrypted using the arkenpliers.


Here's your reference: http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE046_NoIllustration.png

Did Charlie pop anything but Archons? No. The capital could pop one every turn, or three every two turns if they had hired a Turnamancer. Few other cities could pop Archons at all, and all of those required multiple turns. This might or might not be a function of the Arkendish.

I wonder if Charlie's current capital can pop anything else besides Archons. Or if other unit types pop there at a decreased rate. Several wargame systems allow for increasing production of certain units by decreasing the ability to create others.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Squishalot » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:16 am

NYbear wrote:
Vreejack wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Well keep in mind that right now it is still unverfied whether or not the archons are in fact related to the arkendish. The archon's themselves were unable to answer the question for parson when he asked; so its left ambiguous at best.
That would be a very important point if it happens to be true. Can you cite a reference? How can the archons not know this? That would be like Ansom not knowing he was decrypted using the arkenpliers.


Here's your reference: http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE046_NoIllustration.png

Did Charlie pop anything but Archons? No. The capital could pop one every turn, or three every two turns if they had hired a Turnamancer. Few other cities could pop Archons at all, and all of those required multiple turns. This might or might not be a function of the Arkendish.

Yeah, I was rereading that last night.

I'm also convinced that the Archons aren't actually related to the Arkendish. The key points of difference between the Archons and the Decrypted is that the Decrypted have no upkeep cost. Archons cost between 200-500 schmuckers per turn. In the same way that in Warlords, you could occasionally find a city that built units (e.g. heavy cavalry) at a rate of 1 / turn, when most others built them at a rate of 1 / 2 turns, Charlie just got lucky in finding a site that produced optimal numbers of units. Or alternatively, he used his Carnymancy to rig the unit production in his favour. Or more likely, used the Arkendish to find out where such a city was, then either bought / assaulted it and took it over. The fact that a Turnamancer is capable of popping them faster would suggest that it's a result of natural Erfworld mechanics, rather than the Arkendish.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Vreejack » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:40 pm

Squishalot wrote:I'm also convinced that the Archons aren't actually related to the Arkendish. The key points of difference between the Archons and the Decrypted is that the Decrypted have no upkeep cost. Archons cost between 200-500 schmuckers per turn. In the same way that in Warlords, you could occasionally find a city that built units (e.g. heavy cavalry) at a rate of 1 / turn, when most others built them at a rate of 1 / 2 turns, Charlie just got lucky in finding a site that produced optimal numbers of units. Or alternatively, he used his Carnymancy to rig the unit production in his favour. Or more likely, used the Arkendish to find out where such a city was, then either bought / assaulted it and took it over. The fact that a Turnamancer is capable of popping them faster would suggest that it's a result of natural Erfworld mechanics, rather than the Arkendish.


I would assume that the arkentools are actually following natural Erfworld rules for arkentools, which means that if they allow a creature type to pop every x turns then a turnamancer would be able to affect that. Does Gobwin Knob pop dwagons naturally or is it a function of the tool? We aren't sure but the similarity to archons is clear. I wonder if Charlie can tame wild archons ;)
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Squishalot » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:46 pm

Vreejack wrote:
Squishalot wrote:I'm also convinced that the Archons aren't actually related to the Arkendish. The key points of difference between the Archons and the Decrypted is that the Decrypted have no upkeep cost. Archons cost between 200-500 schmuckers per turn. In the same way that in Warlords, you could occasionally find a city that built units (e.g. heavy cavalry) at a rate of 1 / turn, when most others built them at a rate of 1 / 2 turns, Charlie just got lucky in finding a site that produced optimal numbers of units. Or alternatively, he used his Carnymancy to rig the unit production in his favour. Or more likely, used the Arkendish to find out where such a city was, then either bought / assaulted it and took it over. The fact that a Turnamancer is capable of popping them faster would suggest that it's a result of natural Erfworld mechanics, rather than the Arkendish.


I would assume that the arkentools are actually following natural Erfworld rules for arkentools, which means that if they allow a creature type to pop every x turns then a turnamancer would be able to affect that. Does Gobwin Knob pop dwagons naturally or is it a function of the tool? We aren't sure but the similarity to archons is clear. I wonder if Charlie can tame wild archons ;)

Gobwin Knob can still pop dwagons when the Arkenhammer isn't around (see end of TBfGK), noting that it's relatively infrequent as well. There were 6 dwagons in the turn after TBfGK, there were 10-12 eleven turns later. Of those, we know 2 were tamed by Stanley on turn 8 when Parson suggested he go dwagon hunting. Assuming a rate of only 1 dwagon tamed per turn (low estimate), that means that Gobwin Knob possibly popped two new dwagons in the 11 turns after TBfGK, a rate of at least 4 turns per dwagon. We also know that no dwagons popped in between Stanley leaving for Faq, and the end of the battle, which comprised a couple of turns as well.

If the Arkenhammer helps pop dwagons, it's not doing a very good job ;)

On a side note - has anyone noticed that Olive looks very much like an Archon in appearance?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby ManaCaster » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:01 pm

Squishalot wrote:On a side note - has anyone noticed that Olive looks very much like an Archon in appearance?

Not really, no, because just about any pretty girl of the men race looks like an archon.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Not Me » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:08 am

Squishalot wrote:
Vreejack wrote:
Squishalot wrote:I'm also convinced that the Archons aren't actually related to the Arkendish. The key points of difference between the Archons and the Decrypted is that the Decrypted have no upkeep cost. Archons cost between 200-500 schmuckers per turn. In the same way that in Warlords, you could occasionally find a city that built units (e.g. heavy cavalry) at a rate of 1 / turn, when most others built them at a rate of 1 / 2 turns, Charlie just got lucky in finding a site that produced optimal numbers of units. Or alternatively, he used his Carnymancy to rig the unit production in his favour. Or more likely, used the Arkendish to find out where such a city was, then either bought / assaulted it and took it over. The fact that a Turnamancer is capable of popping them faster would suggest that it's a result of natural Erfworld mechanics, rather than the Arkendish.


I would assume that the arkentools are actually following natural Erfworld rules for arkentools, which means that if they allow a creature type to pop every x turns then a turnamancer would be able to affect that. Does Gobwin Knob pop dwagons naturally or is it a function of the tool? We aren't sure but the similarity to archons is clear. I wonder if Charlie can tame wild archons ;)

Gobwin Knob can still pop dwagons when the Arkenhammer isn't around (see end of TBfGK), noting that it's relatively infrequent as well. There were 6 dwagons in the turn after TBfGK, there were 10-12 eleven turns later. Of those, we know 2 were tamed by Stanley on turn 8 when Parson suggested he go dwagon hunting. Assuming a rate of only 1 dwagon tamed per turn (low estimate), that means that Gobwin Knob possibly popped two new dwagons in the 11 turns after TBfGK, a rate of at least 4 turns per dwagon. We also know that no dwagons popped in between Stanley leaving for Faq, and the end of the battle, which comprised a couple of turns as well.

If the Arkenhammer helps pop dwagons, it's not doing a very good job ;)

On a side note - has anyone noticed that Olive looks very much like an Archon in appearance?



Gobwin Knob has not been popping dwagons in their Capital as soon as Stanley got back.

Summer Updates 2009 Update 23
Gobwin Knob had popped two Twolls on its first two turns since being rebuilt, and would be popping them until Stanley decided they had enough henchmen around.




Also, an interesting piece of information to keep in mind when trying to determine if the arkentools affect production is

Book 2 Text 2
Gobwin Knob’s dominion had spread out far and wide, across a variety of terrain types, and Sizemore had seen quite a bit of it. Warlord Ansom and Lady Firebaugh had taken to razing cities which produced less useful unit types, and he would fly out by dwagon relay and rebuild on the ruins. This created a city that popped the same kinds of units the capital did: infantry and twolls for a Level One, plus spidews and warlords for a Level Two, and dwagons for a Level Three or more.



This doesn't give any definite conclusions on if the Arkendish has anything to do with the Archon popping in Charlescomm capital but it might help shed some light on what assumptions/hypothesis we can make.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Morni » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:12 am

Not Me wrote:Also, an interesting piece of information to keep in mind when trying to determine if the arkentools affect production is

Book 2 Text 2
Gobwin Knob’s dominion had spread out far and wide, across a variety of terrain types, and Sizemore had seen quite a bit of it. Warlord Ansom and Lady Firebaugh had taken to razing cities which produced less useful unit types, and he would fly out by dwagon relay and rebuild on the ruins. This created a city that popped the same kinds of units the capital did: infantry and twolls for a Level One, plus spidews and warlords for a Level Two, and dwagons for a Level Three or more.



This doesn't give any definite conclusions on if the Arkendish has anything to do with the Archon popping in Charlescomm capital but it might help shed some light on what assumptions/hypothesis we can make.


If you have 2 or more capital site. Would changing capital site alter the units being built in "raze/rebuilt" city?

is it the capital site or the side that decide what your newly formed city pop?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Not Me » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:35 am

Morni wrote:If you have 2 or more capital site. Would changing capital site alter the units being built in "raze/rebuilt" city?

is it the capital site or the side that decide what your newly formed city pop?



If the second capital site was razed and rebuilt I would expect it to pop the same things as the original capital site even after switching capitals.

Summer Updates 2009 Update 40
In Ossomer's studied opinion, Dhrystone also popped the finest soldiers in Erfworld. They were the standard by which all others might be measured.

It was for that reason that the city had been popping only infantry since he became Chief Warlord. Ansom had been wasting its output on Gumps; Father had a hands-off policy where decisions of the Chief Warlord were concerned. But twelve stacks of eight Pikers and eleven stacks of six Stabbers had now popped since Ansom fell. Given present circumstances, that was surely worth more than seven Gumps.


I guess the other Level 5's Jetstone had at the time where the original Jetstone Capital and Spacerock (both capital sites). Still, no idea if Dhrystone was a capital site, if it was originally a Jetstone city or conquered from some other side and if it was, if it was razed/rebuilt or is just popping what was originally supposed to pop in that city. Still, it's interesting to see how Ossomer believed this city popped "the finest soldiers in Erfworld", making us believe that these Pikers and Stabbers are somehow different from the ones popped in any other city.

So maybe all Level 3+ cities in GK can pop dwagons, but not all those dwagons will be equal

Book 1 Update 46a
Our force:
3 uncroaked warlords
19 Group "A" dwagons
(56+ move)
27 Group "B" dwagons
(< 56 move)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Manic Oppressive » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:29 pm

So something is bothering me. In this update it mentions that Charlie was part of a side that killed two attuned rulers, but in an update from the Summer series (http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png) Charlie mentions wanting to test if an attuned person can be killed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby arkerpay » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:23 pm

Manic Oppressive wrote:So something is bothering me. In this update it mentions that Charlie was part of a side that killed two attuned rulers, but in an update from the Summer series (http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png) Charlie mentions wanting to test if an attuned person can be killed.


Surely you are not taking anything Charlie says as being necessarily truthful. Nothing said during this exchange implies he doesn't know the outcome of such an experiment. He was just probing Parson for information.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby wih » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:29 pm

Manic Oppressive wrote:So something is bothering me. In this update it mentions that Charlie was part of a side that killed two attuned rulers, but in an update from the Summer series (http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png) Charlie mentions wanting to test if an attuned person can be killed.


He isn't saying he wants to test it, here's the direct text:

CharlsNChrg: It seems entirely plausible to me that attunement to an Arkentool has nothing at all to do with the will of the Titans.
CharlsNChrg: It is a dubious claim, in my view. And it is falsifiable.
LordHamster: Really? How?
CharlsNChrg: Simple. Croak a "Tool."
CharlsNChrg: If an attuned wielder of an Arkentool were to croak, it would seem to be pretty compelling evidence that the Titans were not on their side. Don't you think?


It's not about whether or not people who are attuned are croakable. He's making a statement saying that it's possible to disprove Toolism by croaking a Tool.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Not Me » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:48 am

The other attuned wielders were not claiming to be "Tools" and were not talking about "Toolism".
Even though I think Charlie is more saying that to test Parson than anything else (as mentioned, he already knows that experiment could be carried out successfully), I think he is specifically talking about Stanley and/or Wanda and not any attuned when he is talking about trying to croak them.
If you manage to croak someone that claims to be a Tool of the Titans because they were attuned, then he didn't have that much the favour of the Titans as he/she claimed, thus disproving his/her claim in the process.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby goodmorning » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:59 am

Nice little link up with the Healomancer Betsy Murgatroyd and the Wizard of Oz situation here:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/heav ... troyd.html

The phrase was first spoken by Bert Lahr, the Cowardly Lion.

I love this comic.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby tgriff02 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:34 pm

Oberon wrote:
the_tick_rules wrote:Wow, Charlie finally got some history revealed, awesome. Well now we know he isn't the dish itself.
Most of us already knew that. You may park your tin foil cap on the rack there, next to so many others.

Wait! Charlie, as the sentient 'Dish, clearly was capable of planting false memories into the minds of Erfowrlders, The Side of which was spoken never existed, and Chalrie never ruled it; the cake is a lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :lol: ;)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby 0beron » Mon May 06, 2013 12:22 am

Zippy the Squirrel wrote:Wasn't Goodminton's Predictamancer starting to show signs of "natural decay?" I figured that was Erf for getting old.
Okay, maybe it was her nerves from seeing her doom in Wanda, maybe it's aging, or illness, or Goodminton couldn't afford her upkeep anymore, or something. I always thought it meant she was aging, though.

It's been all but explicitly stated that Erflings do not age to death. They die in combat, or in rare extenuating circumstances like lack of upkeep/side-death. The appearance of aging however HAS been explicitly explained as Natural Signamancy, with the specific examples of Slately and Maggie. Slately says of himself that his cowardice, laziness, and such have made him appear short, fat, weak and faded. Maggie used to look much older, but since interacting with Parson and taking a more active role in the Side, she has gradually become more youthful and healthy in her appearance.
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