Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:15 pm

Kreistor wrote:Banhammer is second-guessing all of his subordinates, based solely on his belief that he is a superior judge of character.

I think you're giving Banhammer to much credit. He's thinking with his winkie. Olive is HOT and hippiemancers put out.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:40 pm

Good thing trial isn't here. Sleeping with the defendant might be a conflict of interest.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby BrotherRool » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:32 pm

StClair wrote:BrotherRool:

But is it justice, and respect for life, and all that? Or is it just another iteration of the theme we've seen before, the sin of pride?
"I am not Fate's pawn, I refuse to be, I'm too strong/wise/important!"
People in this story keep saying that, and look where it gets them.

Sorry if you don't see this, I tend to only look at the comment threads for each page once or twice and I was a bit late with this one.

The thing about pride is a relevant one and I think there is a lot of pride in Banhammer that will get him taken down, but at the same time he's having pride in a conviction that is right for once, and albeit foolish it's leading him down a sensible path. A trial means he's open to believing that other people can persuade him and inform him better as to what to do in this situation, instead of believing in his own fallibility. I don't think it's a good idea that he's judge and that may be prideful, but that's smaller compared to his wish for a trial in the first place.

His pride is that you can ultimately get a choice in what you want your life to be about. You can want to make decisions and still learn that you are not the arbiter of good and bad and it's wise to follow those who are better placed to know, but you still get to choose that. And that's not what Banhammer is being presented with, no-one is giving him reasons that it's more just to act in their favour (more prudent, more clever, more deserved maybe), he's being told that fate will have this happen justice or no. His pride here is based on the idea that justice can exist.


And if things like that can't exist and he can't choose to lead it in the direction and ethics he wishes, then fate destroying him is not a punishment. He wins because he didn't cave in and was presented with one choice, to conform or be removed and he made the choice
----------------------------------------------

EDIT:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Why should Fate be beaten? [strikethrough]Marie could be right about Fate being good.[/strikethrough] I just realized Marie never said Fate was good, just that opposing Fate is bad - she fears Fate, but doesn't necessarily approve of it.

Banhammer is taking a stand against a certain relationship to Fate, but he is not necessarily resisting Fate itself. In fact, given how difficult the Very Easy Way tends to be, it seems that Fate doesn't want slaves.


Since the author has described himself as an in-world Titan, I think his plot outline is synonymous with Fate. This would mean that, whether or not they realize it, any unit whose character development is sufficiently compelling to merit an arc has influence over Fate, not just Parson. Rob Balder evidently wants the story to have wide appeal, and he and his audience have empathy, so Fate is overall benign (according to Stupidworld morality), but at the same time it's like an alien intelligence toying with the Erfworlders.

The way I could see fate is benign, is if it's part of fate that the hard way is actually a relevant choice and you aren't always meant to accept the easy way. And then fate isn't a force that is robbing people of their right to be individuals but is the way things are and can actually strengthen and test people's convictions.

And I guess we haven't seen fate differently from that yet. People like Wanda assume that you're meant to take the easy path, because it's easy. But fate isn't (at least probably isn't, there could easily be reveals down the line) conscious in that sense and doesn't 'want' people to choose either path, which falls in line with the idea of characters with sufficient personality having influence over the Plot
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby multilis » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:04 am

In "stupid world", Parson had a goal as game master, he was "fate". He wanted his group to lose no matter what they tried until they found a way to cheat him.

In end of book 1, Wanda says to Parson "you did not choose erfworld, Erfworld chose you/needed you."

I think fate has a goal, and is working towards it with Wanda, Parson, etc. The predictions are just part of reaching that goal, and they will be fulfilled in a way that helps reach that goal. It is possible that fate can be cheated if you have enough power on your side, eg a good luckomancer can only tilt so many battles.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby effataigus » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:03 pm

Well, something meaningful has to come from this trial. If fate just wanted Olive dead then Marie would have been able to shoot her out of the sky. Not sure I care to hazard a guess as to what that might be though.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:54 pm

To be fair, Marie didn't say Jillian couldn't croak her, just that Wanda couldn't with a shock spell.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Eva » Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:08 pm

Well, through the trial Wanda may be able to tell things she would not normally have told which bring her and Jillian or her and Banhammer closer, setting the scene for all that follows.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:34 pm

Banhammers decision to have a trial was a very admiral one He didn't say no to his subordinates, but gave them a chance to prove themselves.

But that being said, I do think he is some sort of hippimancy spell that has made him fall in love with her, similar to how Tommy was.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby teratorn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:16 am

effataigus wrote:Well, something meaningful has to come from this trial. If fate just wanted Olive dead then Marie would have been able to shoot her out of the sky. Not sure I care to hazard a guess as to what that might be though.


I don't think the trial is the issue, Fate wants Jillian to level, and she probably wouldn't if Olive had just been blasted from the sky.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Codex » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:29 am

De-lurking because I can't believe nobody's already brought up the point...
“The execution is the crime!” exploded Banhammer. The shout echoed from the towers and buildings all around them. Jillian had only heard him lose his temper a few times. It was frightening each time.

I would be very, very wary of incurring the wrath of a ruler named Banhammer. Wouldn't you? :o

His insistence on a trial is not necessarily, or not entirely, an act of hubris or arrogance--it's really an extension of his entire way of being. His court revolves around the exercise of debate, intellectual discussion and reasoned argumentation. It seems natural and logical that, when circumstances thrust Faq into the position of potentially ending (and consequently becoming) the most powerful Side in Erfworld, he should resort to the same procedures before making this most monumental of decisions. Take note that they don't seem to be conducting a trial of whether Olive Branch has acted illegally (as several have said, laws in Erfworld seem to be more hardwired into the system than social constructs) but rather whether she is evil--a question of morality that has as much validity in Erfworld as Stupidworld. Though here, we try people for their actions and not their motivations.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Vreejack » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:34 pm

I find it curious that everything that is happening here will be largely forgotten over the next few thousand turns.

Faq--along with Transylvito--was apparently on the edge of Haffaton space, but it seems that all the other kingdoms in the area--including the Plaid side--appeared in the void after Haffaton's collapse, probably seeded by colonizing royals. Spacerock itself is probably one of those sides. Saline certainly was. So why is everyone so ignorant of their history?

It seems intentional on Balder's part. Maggie seems utterly ignorant of the role of Dame Olive Branch in the region's history, laughing derisively at the mere existence of hippymancers. Even the idea of casters being overlords seems alien to the later crew, while in Banhammer's time they were the most powerful overlords in Erf. Judy Gale was even suspected of being a caster at one point. In the later story promoting a non-royal to be heir was considered extremely unusual, but Wanda was popped into just such a side.

Perhaps it is necessary to forget history in order for the entertainment to go on. Bloody titans.

While I am here I will relate again my pet theory: that the Titans--to play their game and perhaps through mutual agreement--only interact with Erf through specific ways, which include leaving Arkentools unattended and crafting peculiar Predictions which can then be fed to predictamancers. Of course this isn't true because we already know that the vast majority of what happens on Erf springs from Rob Balder's imagination, but a lot of what the characters do (if their behavior is sane) is simply a natural response to Tools and Predictions, so I like my theory as a metaphor for the whole process.
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
A Prediction is what would have happened had there been no Prediction. What is scary is that they are also what will happen in spite of the Prediction.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby drachefly » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:38 pm

Promoting a non-royal to heir is still seen to be unusual for royal sides.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby jkosta » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:02 pm

Codex wrote:His insistence on a trial is not necessarily, or not entirely, an act of hubris or arrogance--it's really an extension of his entire way of being. His court revolves around the exercise of debate, intellectual discussion and reasoned argumentation. It seems natural and logical that, when circumstances thrust Faq into the position of potentially ending (and consequently becoming) the most powerful Side in Erfworld, he should resort to the same procedures before making this most monumental of decisions. Take note that they don't seem to be conducting a trial of whether Olive Branch has acted illegally (as several have said, laws in Erfworld seem to be more hardwired into the system than social constructs) but rather whether she is evil--a question of morality that has as much validity in Erfworld as Stupidworld. Though here, we try people for their actions and not their motivations.


This.

Whatever else you say about Banhammer: it may be stupid, but he's an idealist. He's trying, earnestly, to change the world. He's not very good at it, but he nevertheless has his hand in the game: he's not a warmonger who talks about the value of peace. He's actually a pacifist. He actually believes in Justice, and when presented with an opportunity to walk into the unknown fairly or unfairly, he chooses to do it as fairly as he's able to imagine or achieve.

This isn't the modern day rule of law–legality doesn't mean anything without a rule of law–; this is still king-as-arbiter justice. But it's better than an unqualified execution when he doesn't have any substantial proof of Olive's evil. He's the Overlord/Ruler. He is roughly responsible for the actions of his units. He has the opportunity to make choices and to enforce them. He has beliefs about how the world should work. Assuming these beliefs are not complete batshit (and beliefs rarely are), it's a good, noble, and courageous thing for him to try to live according to those beliefs.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby bladestorm » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:40 pm

Vreejack wrote:I find it curious that everything that is happening here will be largely forgotten over the next few thousand turns.

Faq--along with Transylvito--was apparently on the edge of Haffaton space, but it seems that all the other kingdoms in the area--including the Plaid side--appeared in the void after Haffaton's collapse, probably seeded by colonizing royals. Spacerock itself is probably one of those sides. Saline certainly was. So why is everyone so ignorant of their history?

It seems intentional on Balder's part. Maggie seems utterly ignorant of the role of Dame Olive Branch in the region's history, laughing derisively at the mere existence of hippymancers. Even the idea of casters being overlords seems alien to the later crew, while in Banhammer's time they were the most powerful overlords in Erf. Judy Gale was even suspected of being a caster at one point. In the later story promoting a non-royal to be heir was considered extremely unusual, but Wanda was popped into just such a side.

Perhaps it is necessary to forget history in order for the entertainment to go on. Bloody titans.

While I am here I will relate again my pet theory: that the Titans--to play their game and perhaps through mutual agreement--only interact with Erf through specific ways, which include leaving Arkentools unattended and crafting peculiar Predictions which can then be fed to predictamancers. Of course this isn't true because we already know that the vast majority of what happens on Erf springs from Rob Balder's imagination, but a lot of what the characters do (if their behavior is sane) is simply a natural response to Tools and Predictions, so I like my theory as a metaphor for the whole process.

The history probably was written down, just not in the form we'd expect it. GK's library was full of unread books, mostly about the winners of battles, high scores, and such. The library had a different purpose than to record the activities of a major side during a period of time, much how the slaughterhouse has a much different purpose. The end result is the same as how it would be used in stupidworld, but the means are very different. The slaughterhouse was used to translate a depopped food animal into product in the larder -- no actual slaughtering was done and no blood was spilled.

Actual advances done by one side are not recorded, nor are they passed on. All of the work done by Maxwell was not recorded and lapsed into history with his passing. Somewhere in the past, a dollamancer may have experimented with Accessories, yet for Ace, he is breaking new ground with his developments. Haffaton had paddleboats, but as useful as they are, there doesn't seem to be any around as of Book 1. The entire world is designed around constant warfare, so if something gives your Side the edge, it dies with your Side since you don't want to give a potential enemy your own advantage. I doubt any side after GK will be using a foolamancer-thinkamancer-lookamancer link to make the eyetable and eyebooks anytime after this. Come to think of it, now even GK won't be doing that BECAUSE JACK'S CROAKED BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Knock knock. Who's there? Who booping cares JACK'S CROAKED! (ref. black mage from 8-bit theatre)

Stealing ideas is still an option. We know trimancer links existed long before Stanley linked his casters. He may have seen an eyemancer table in one of the kingdoms he conquered with is dwagon army. Maybe there was one in Milquetoast. Anyway, he couldn't actually make such a table because all he had was a thinkamancer, a dirtamancer and a lookamancer. When he happened to pick up a Foolamancer and a Croakamancer, he had all of the ingredients to recreate what he had seen elsewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Frosted » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:13 pm

jkosta wrote:
Codex wrote:His insistence on a trial is not necessarily, or not entirely, an act of hubris or arrogance--it's really an extension of his entire way of being. His court revolves around the exercise of debate, intellectual discussion and reasoned argumentation. It seems natural and logical that, when circumstances thrust Faq into the position of potentially ending (and consequently becoming) the most powerful Side in Erfworld, he should resort to the same procedures before making this most monumental of decisions. Take note that they don't seem to be conducting a trial of whether Olive Branch has acted illegally (as several have said, laws in Erfworld seem to be more hardwired into the system than social constructs) but rather whether she is evil--a question of morality that has as much validity in Erfworld as Stupidworld. Though here, we try people for their actions and not their motivations.

This.

Whatever else you say about Banhammer: it may be stupid, but he's an idealist. He's trying, earnestly, to change the world. He's not very good at it, but he nevertheless has his hand in the game: he's not a warmonger who talks about the value of peace. He's actually a pacifist. He actually believes in Justice, and when presented with an opportunity to walk into the unknown fairly or unfairly, he chooses to do it as fairly as he's able to imagine or achieve.

This isn't the modern day rule of law–legality doesn't mean anything without a rule of law–; this is still king-as-arbiter justice. But it's better than an unqualified execution when he doesn't have any substantial proof of Olive's evil. He's the Overlord/Ruler. He is roughly responsible for the actions of his units. He has the opportunity to make choices and to enforce them. He has beliefs about how the world should work. Assuming these beliefs are not complete batshit (and beliefs rarely are), it's a good, noble, and courageous thing for him to try to live according to those beliefs.


Both of these things. (Wish these forums had +1's)

Seriously, this is a super humanizing update for Banhammer.
He shouts and scares Jillian!
He has a lucid contemplative moment with Jack demonstrating his ability to think outside the moment! (During which, he demonstrates the scope of his vision, which, before, just seemed kind of naive)
It's all there.

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that Olive being permitted to talk is going to be the undoing of FAQ but I feel exactly the other way: Wanda speaking is going to completely ruin Olive.
Last edited by Frosted on Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Kreistor » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:38 pm

jkosta wrote:He's trying, earnestly, to change the world.


No, he isn't. He's hiding wherever possible and letting the world do whatever it wants. Banhammer cares only about himself and his little, insulated bubble kingdom.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Vreejack » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:04 pm

Kreistor wrote:
jkosta wrote:He's trying, earnestly, to change the world.


No, he isn't. He's hiding wherever possible and letting the world do whatever it wants. Banhammer cares only about himself and his little, insulated bubble kingdom.


But for a moment he got to contemplate actually having the opportunity to put his philosophy into practice. It must have made his head spin.


Aside from that, this episode gave me an idea. What if Predictions are not absolute but rely greatly on die rolls for their fruition? The Titans may have absolute power over the dice, but what if a character insists on trying to defeat a Prediction? If reason and dice rolls are the only thing holding you back, then it may just be possible for a character to defeat a Prediction. Of course, this assumes that even the Titans have limits, or are competing against each other.
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
A Prediction is what would have happened had there been no Prediction. What is scary is that they are also what will happen in spite of the Prediction.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:14 pm

Vreejack wrote:Aside from that, this episode gave me an idea. What if Predictions are not absolute but rely greatly on die rolls for their fruition? The Titans may have absolute power over the dice, but what if a character insists on trying to defeat a Prediction? If reason and dice rolls are the only thing holding you back, then it may just be possible for a character to defeat a Prediction. Of course, this assumes that even the Titans have limits, or are competing against each other.

That reminds me - this update may have given a cryptic hint into the workings of Predictamancy. In her frustration, Marie shouted "It's all zeroes!" I'm wondering why a Predictamancer would be talking about numbers rather than booleans.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby raphfrk » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:44 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote: Marie shouted "It's all zeroes!" I'm wondering why a Predictamancer would be talking about numbers rather than booleans.


On that point, they do seem to be able to predict conditional predictions; If you fire now, it won't hit. This gives a way to avoid them.

Zero in this context could be damage inflicted or just the probability of hitting.

If predictions come with a probability, then the Predictions would then be the unconditional ones with 100% probability. You can't just avoid the conditional and the prediction is 100%.

Maybe predictions never actually hit 100%, so the very hard way might allow you to avoid them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 065

Postby Morni » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:45 am

raphfrk wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote: Marie shouted "It's all zeroes!" I'm wondering why a Predictamancer would be talking about numbers rather than booleans.


On that point, they do seem to be able to predict conditional predictions; If you fire now, it won't hit. This gives a way to avoid them.

Zero in this context could be damage inflicted or just the probability of hitting.

If predictions come with a probability, then the Predictions would then be the unconditional ones with 100% probability. You can't just avoid the conditional and the prediction is 100%.

Maybe predictions never actually hit 100%, so the very hard way might allow you to avoid them.


Maybe Olive was fated to be captured.. and has to be killed by Jillian hands only, not wanda's or any other units.
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