Book 2 – Page 105

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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby teratorn » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:46 am

WarGiver wrote:I think that Jack cast an illusion on Parson to think Jack was with him, Parson being unable to tell stats at a glance like everyone else might just be vulnerable to such a spell.


I don't think it would work like that, an illusion with a personality? That would be dittomancy not foolamancy. At first I thought Jack had sent a double with Parson, so technically it wouldn't violate the MK's terms and could explain the lack of juice (the dittomancer would probably need to transfer his own juice), but then it should have disappeared when it died.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby bladestorm » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:43 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Two casters? I thought only Ace was left. If they go for two, they may as well go for four. An airborne strike against the column marching away from Spacerock could target the leadership, wiping out Tramennis, Pierce, and Lloyd. They just wait for the incapacitated Cubbins to fly straight into the slaughter. That's a very vulnerable convoy if you can avoid the main column. There may be some archery left, but most have spent their ammo, and just how much damage could they possible muster? We've seen what a stack of dwagons can do to a stack in Book 1, and Jetstone no longer has an insane leadership bonus stacked with an artifact bonus.

End of this turn and the start of the next will be the keys to this battle. Neither GK nor Jetstone are in a position for another sustained conflict. Parson will be vulnerable until reinforcements can be acquired. Tramennis will be vulnerable until his entire column can get to their destination. Cubbins will lose that replicated backpack at the start of next turn. If Parson pressed the issue, he might be able to take the remaining dwagons, abandon Spacerock, and launch a counter attack against just the airborn casters and leadership. He might have enough move to reach them, and if his turn starts before Jetstone's, he may be able to catch them as they are breaking camp. It'd be a gamble that would leave him in the middle of nowhere, and he'd be relying on the attack group doing what they do without him being there (unless he can weasel his way around the Heavy unit on a flying mount restriction), but he could wipe out Jetstone.


I can't really see that working. No one in a position to order such a strike knows where they'll be exactly (especially if Trem and co and beelining for Jetstone instead of hovering above the column) - Parson certainly doesn't, at the moment for all he knows all the Jetstone casters are dead and Slately has no heir. Wanda can't get to the city so there'll be no questioning of new decrypted who know anything. If Parson captured either Slately or Ace there is a chance they may spill the beans, but it would be awfully convenient of them to gab "Trem is heir and he and the casters are flying for Jetstone on this route and everyone has been evacuated" in the time they have left.

Plus it seems most of the dwagons are dead (as well as anyone to fly on them), and they don't have archons for any kind of scouting. And Parson, unable to ride dwagons... so Parson would be essentially leaving himself completely defenseless in Spacerock while sending the dwagons off.

And Jetstone still has alot of archers with the column, and the dwagons aren't getting any bonuses either and there'll be no cloaking to cover them this time. And of course - everyone is spread out everywhere. Stanley is (baring overlord senses) fairly blind as to what is going on in Spacerock, Parson is pretty much blind to anything going on outside of the throne room he's currently in. Maggie and Wanda have no idea what is going on in Spacerock, and Maggie is nearly out of juice as well.... and there is Charlie. His turn definitely comes before GK, and I can't help but suspect his plan consisted of more than hoping Parson would burn to death in Spacerock

Yes. Far too many things to coordinate to chase down a small fast moving target when everyone is out of contact with everyone else, especially with the very limited resources Parson has at hand.

Charlie knows that Tram has left the city, and where he is going, and what troops he took with him. Charlie also works for the highest bidder, gets paid to turn situations into win-win's, can coordinate long-range tactics, and just happens to have the type of unit that could make such a strike possible. He also has stated that he would like to have Parson working for Charlescomm. Make it look like Parson did all of that destruction by himself as well as destroyed Jetstone (combined with reports from the volcano uncroaking), then let it be known that such an entity now works for Charlescomm and can be hired out for a price. That's a remote merc's dream setup.

"He's got a proven track record of winning unwinnable battles, and for a mere 20 million per turn, your Side can avoid complete obliteration. Just look at what he did for Gobwin Knob! It was once about to be curb-stomped off the face of the planet by the entire RCC, yet it now stands as one of the most defensible positions in the known world. Then cast your eyes at what he did to Jetstone, the premier fighting force of the Western Conflict! Just think what he could do for your Side. Or worse, think what he could do TO your side if you opponent orders him first! Order now, and he can he rush delivered to you capitol site by the start of next Turn. But wait, there's more. Order now, and we'll throw in now two, not four, but SIX Archons on full service retainer. Sign the contract right now, and we'll throw in an additional gift of unlimited thinkagrams free at no charge. Operators are standing by."

Come to think of it, that would make for an interesting story line. Especially if the first Side that buys his services swells up and becomes the oppressor, but cannot afford his services any longer (or thinks they can get along without him), and then Parson gets hired by one of the smaller Sides that is about to get crushed.

Or such a scenario would be like Charlescomm having the only Nuke on the planet, and no one is willing to go to war any more for fear of the opponent being able to buy the nuke. The cost of such warfare would exceed the gain.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:52 am

Kreistor wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Except we know what's going on the dwagon's head. Orders. Only commanding units in Erfworld have the gift of free will to afford to make mistakes. Everybody else blindly follows orders or runs on auto-scritp. And if the order is to make a building start colapsing and then charge inside said colapsing building, well, he was just following orders.


All orders are open to interpretation. Jack ordered it to "breath. And... charge in, I suppose?" He conveyed no timing, so the Dragon interpreted it as an immediate charge following the breath. The dwagon might know that it will survive the falling debris and not worry about the rider's capacity to. So while the orders are odd, to it, it did exactly what Jack asked. This is a literal interpretation of the orders.

An experienced commander would say, "Breath, wait for the debris to fall, and then charge in to clear out survivors." Jack is inexperienced, and so failed to convey orders with precision... and paid for it.


My point exactly. It was Jack's fault by giving half-suicide orders. Erfworld troops will all too happilly throw themselves into danger if their leaders deem so.

Which also reinforces the absurdity of earlier spontaneously combusting dwagons. How could an higly experienced warlord that has been fighting alongside dwagons for countless turns decide to "pack them close" if that's just gonna lead to all of them blowing up as soon as a green dwagon falls, with more damage than they could ever deal in life to boot?

Altough the part where Hamster has been reduced to "Screw strategy, just charge in everybody, zerg rush kekeke!" is a sign the whole GK side has somehow gone stupid. Seems like Trems somehow managed to leave his tactical incompetence in the city. Ever since Jetstone's newest heir left the city, GK's forces just seem to be in a race to kill themselves as fast as possible (pack the super-friendly-explosion troops togheter! Make buildings start colapsing over our main forces and then charge inside to make sure we're caught by the colapse! And don't forget to only ride blinded mounts! Because red is so passe!).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby multilis » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:04 pm

teratorn wrote:
WarGiver wrote:I think that Jack cast an illusion on Parson to think Jack was with him, Parson being unable to tell stats at a glance like everyone else might just be vulnerable to such a spell.


I don't think it would work like that, an illusion with a personality? That would be dittomancy not foolamancy. At first I thought Jack had sent a double with Parson, so technically it wouldn't violate the MK's terms and could explain the lack of juice (the dittomancer would probably need to transfer his own juice), but then it should have disappeared when it died.

Book 1 has Jack's illusion of Stanley with personality, then shows illusion of dragon on ground with XX in his eyes. No one has tried to put their hand through dead Jack yet.

Therefore Jack is clearly an illusion, Jack faked his own death because he is really Charlie and he missed hanging out with his archons. They provide a nice warm bath, and for a Tuna that is important, too much walking outside with the humans dries out a fish's skin. Since Parson already suspects Charlie is a Tuna, this is evidence that Charlie must have been near him (as Jack) and Parson subconscious picked up on the fishy clues.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby multilis » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:17 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Altough the part where Hamster has been reduced to "Screw strategy, just charge in everybody, zerg rush kekeke!" is a sign the whole GK side has somehow gone stupid. Seems like Trems somehow managed to leave his tactical incompetence in the city. Ever since Jetstone's newest heir left the city, GK's forces just seem to be in a race to kill themselves as fast as possible (pack the super-friendly-explosion troops togheter! Make buildings start colapsing over our main forces and then charge inside to make sure we're caught by the colapse! And don't forget to only ride blinded mounts! Because red is so passe!).

Jack has very little experience with field command, casters were normally kept away from combat. So not much practice with hedging against common mistakes, Ansom would do better there. Fire dragon would add to inferno risk. Half blind dragon, Jack didn't know much about risks. Practice with Parson was thinking outside the box, rather than the also important knowing the box and using best efficiency within it. (Eg minimize risks of catastrophic failure) The risk of failure may have also gone up due to fate borrowing luck rolls to help its own objectives.

Crazy Silvia likes big booms so any thought about risks of dragons packed together risk boom would just be "ahhahahhhahhahahahhhhahha!"

Parson has inferno risk, time is important, zerg rush may be best tactic. His flaw/mistake may be related to Jack... portal is closed so he can't send him back, a valuable piece left behind can still be sniped (often better to instead keep the valuable piece in main group). Battle was close so sending Jack to get a dragon wasn't that bad either as far as risk management goes. So while perhaps some weakness in handling of Jack's safety in risk/benefit management, not any horrible decisions.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby bladestorm » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:07 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Except we know what's going on the dwagon's head. Orders. Only commanding units in Erfworld have the gift of free will to afford to make mistakes. Everybody else blindly follows orders or runs on auto-scritp. And if the order is to make a building start colapsing and then charge inside said colapsing building, well, he was just following orders.


All orders are open to interpretation. Jack ordered it to "breath. And... charge in, I suppose?" He conveyed no timing, so the Dragon interpreted it as an immediate charge following the breath. The dwagon might know that it will survive the falling debris and not worry about the rider's capacity to. So while the orders are odd, to it, it did exactly what Jack asked. This is a literal interpretation of the orders.

An experienced commander would say, "Breath, wait for the debris to fall, and then charge in to clear out survivors." Jack is inexperienced, and so failed to convey orders with precision... and paid for it.


My point exactly. It was Jack's fault by giving half-suicide orders. Erfworld troops will all too happilly throw themselves into danger if their leaders deem so.

Which also reinforces the absurdity of earlier spontaneously combusting dwagons. How could an higly experienced warlord that has been fighting alongside dwagons for countless turns decide to "pack them close" if that's just gonna lead to all of them blowing up as soon as a green dwagon falls, with more damage than they could ever deal in life to boot?

Altough the part where Hamster has been reduced to "Screw strategy, just charge in everybody, zerg rush kekeke!" is a sign the whole GK side has somehow gone stupid. Seems like Trems somehow managed to leave his tactical incompetence in the city. Ever since Jetstone's newest heir left the city, GK's forces just seem to be in a race to kill themselves as fast as possible (pack the super-friendly-explosion troops togheter! Make buildings start colapsing over our main forces and then charge inside to make sure we're caught by the colapse! And don't forget to only ride blinded mounts! Because red is so passe!).

That wasn't just an experienced warlord. That was an experienced warlord that had burned to death, only to be revived by Carnymancy, then got blown up by a Volcano,only to be revived by the Pliers.

If these characters were tied to live players, Sylvia seems like the GM's girlfriend. The character should have died but somehow got saved, then it happened again, and again, and again. So then she just started flaunting the fact that her character couldn't die, no matter how big of an explosion. So yeah, pack in the greens tight despite the risk of a catastrophic explosion. If the character dies, the GM gets no nookie for a LONG time.

Jack, though, has already demonstrated that while he understands the concept of lateral thinking, does not employ it very well. Jack's lateral thinking was to bring down the tower, which Antium pointed out was a bad idea (Does it hurt, Fool?). It was also Jack's idea to enter the Magick Kingdom via an enemy portal. I don't know for sure if that also spurred Wanda to leave the battle, but the overall effect of Jack's idea was just bad. He seems to understand the part about taking a HUGE risk, but not the part about making it pay off. Jack wasn't around for the volcano uncroaking, so all he knows of it came from the few witnesses. Parson just magickally survived despite what would otherwise be croaking as soon as he entered the MK portal. Jack was there for wen Parson was playing around with the table, but that was a safe environment for Parson to take big risks with no actual losses. If there were a table session that involved a halfblind purple that collapsed a building on itself, the imaginary rider would have croaked,and jack could have reset the table to try a different strategy. Parson's gambit during Parley could very easily have killed both Wanda and Jack. It was a huge gamble that Parson was able to turn into a payout. Jack is just doing what he has been taught to do, but he's just not as good at it. For me, Jack final misstep was not at all out of character. He saw a stunt performed by a trained professional, and tried it at home, despite the warnings.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Not Me » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:45 pm

bladestorm wrote:If these characters were tied to live players, Sylvia seems like the GM's girlfriend. If the character dies, the GM gets no nookie for a LONG time.


Sylvia is Charlie's girlfriend???


Assuming Jack is really croaked, it will be interesting to see how the different characters react to this loss (specially Parson, Stanley & Jillian and to a lesser extent, Wanda).

But I'm having the feeling all these is part of the set up needed for Parson to actually give it a try at that scroll. Parson wouldn't have dared the volcano trick or trying his luck with going through the portal until he felt there was no other option. Now, with the Inferno, the people Parson cares about "out of danger" (either out of the city or croaked) and the possibility of Charlie getting into Spacerock before GKs next turn, that scroll might be the only option to avoid "killing the fat man" from happening. And thanks to Book 0 we know that if the scroll really takes him back to Earth, that's not the end of it, since he should be able to get back to Erf "wearing" an arkentool. Another interesting thing if this happens is to see what happens to Erf landscape (mainly what does Charlie do) while Parson is away.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby tgriff02 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:27 pm

teratorn wrote:
WarGiver wrote:I think that Jack cast an illusion on Parson to think Jack was with him, Parson being unable to tell stats at a glance like everyone else might just be vulnerable to such a spell.


I don't think it would work like that, an illusion with a personality? That would be dittomancy not foolamancy. At first I thought Jack had sent a double with Parson, so technically it wouldn't violate the MK's terms and could explain the lack of juice (the dittomancer would probably need to transfer his own juice), but then it should have disappeared when it died.


If Jack were consciously controlling the Illusion in real-time (or as close to as Erfworld's mechanics allow) there should be no problem with an illusion having personality, however, that would require Jack to be able see and react to the things going on around Parson, so he'd need to be using the See What You See spell, like he did with Jillian in her flower dream, which would require juice. As far as an illusion, with personality, that was set up in advance and left to play itself out, I just can't imagine that working out correctly. Not saying it can't, it's Rob's world and Rob's ruleset, but I can't imagine it working right.

Although, as an afterthought, that would make for a very amusing situation if this weren't such a serious moment. Jack's veil playing itself out, and then suddenly Parson goes "offscript" by doing something Jack didn't anticipate, and the Veil Jack just kept right on with the programmed "plan"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby teratorn » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:00 pm

multilis wrote:Book 1 has Jack's illusion of Stanley with personality, then shows illusion of dragon on ground with XX in his eyes. No one has tried to put their hand through dead Jack yet.


Jack was in the hex then.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:06 pm

bladestorm wrote:If these characters were tied to live players, Sylvia seems like the GM's girlfriend. The character should have died but somehow got saved, then it happened again, and again, and again. So then she just started flaunting the fact that her character couldn't die, no matter how big of an explosion. So yeah, pack in the greens tight despite the risk of a catastrophic explosion. If the character dies, the GM gets no nookie for a LONG time.

Dunno about that, by those standards Jillian would be the GM's girlfriend. She keeps charging head on into danger and the only reason she's still alive is because everybody seems to have an excuse to take her prisioner. Nobles, princes and kings all over the land fawn for her while showering her with gifts. Even "can I kill and decrypt that guy now?" Wanda melts herself for Jillian.

bladestorm wrote:Jack, though, has already demonstrated that while he understands the concept of lateral thinking, does not employ it very well. Jack's lateral thinking was to bring down the tower, which Antium pointed out was a bad idea (Does it hurt, Fool?). It was also Jack's idea to enter the Magick Kingdom via an enemy portal. I don't know for sure if that also spurred Wanda to leave the battle, but the overall effect of Jack's idea was just bad. He seems to understand the part about taking a HUGE risk, but not the part about making it pay off. Jack wasn't around for the volcano uncroaking, so all he knows of it came from the few witnesses. Parson just magickally survived despite what would otherwise be croaking as soon as he entered the MK portal. Jack was there for wen Parson was playing around with the table, but that was a safe environment for Parson to take big risks with no actual losses. If there were a table session that involved a halfblind purple that collapsed a building on itself, the imaginary rider would have croaked,and jack could have reset the table to try a different strategy. Parson's gambit during Parley could very easily have killed both Wanda and Jack. It was a huge gamble that Parson was able to turn into a payout. Jack is just doing what he has been taught to do, but he's just not as good at it. For me, Jack final misstep was not at all out of character. He saw a stunt performed by a trained professional, and tried it at home, despite the warnings.


I would've expected Jack to have learned something from geting an arrow in the back spine when capturing Ossomer. That he isn't really fit to charge into the fray mounted on dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby doran » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:20 pm

effataigus wrote:Not that I was a forumite back then, but supposedly there was a similar sentiment echoing around near the end of book 1. People were complaining that Parson was being thwarted by arbitrary turns of events (DDR scene, Charlie turning sides, the way the battle over the lake went down) and the blind incompetence of his inferiors/superiors (thinking Wanda's over-confidence in her spells and Stanley's kill-misty-cut-and-run scthick). In the end, all of that was made kinda awesome when Parson explained that the whole point of his game was to make it unwinnable with normal strategies... and that he as GM planned to cheat his players in exactly that fashion. I kinda cannot wait to see the big picture of book 2!


This is incredibly true.

I'd like to add to this.

Jack died today, ultimately due to Parson's inaction. I'm not talking about any of the events during the novel, but at the start.
Gobwin Knob attacked Jetstone, not just re-establishing their former borders, but trying to wipe them out. Jack nearly died twice already - the arrow, the lucky fall, and now the third and true time.

He wouldn't be in war, if Gobwin Knob hadn't brought along him for a genocidal capital strike, if Parson had with some kind of strong defense, to buy time. Parson acted incredibly passively as an advisor to Wanda. He became piece again this novel, being driven by love for his friends and sides. He's good at one-day broken tactics. I think next-book will see some broken strategy.
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We're the people sitting around discussing our pet theories based on nomenclature, citing references, discussing ad nauseum while Parson finds out how it works.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Jules.LT » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:35 am

Cross eyes is a sure sign of croaking, right? :cry:
I can't believe it. He was one of my favourite characters, he can't die in such a silly way :?
I can't think of a good reason for it to be an illusion either...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Witchalok » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:15 am

What I don't understand is why some are saying that Jack will be decrypted.
Story-wise, it doesn't make sense in my opinion to croak him in such a "stupid" manner, only so he can get decrypted.

There are some other likely candidates *cough*Ace*cough* for decrypted casters. In my opinion (and I really liked the character) I hope he stays dead.
Sure, some part of me is hoping that this is just an illusion, but it would be just too cheesy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby effataigus » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:12 am

Jules.LT wrote:Cross eyes is a sure sign of croaking, right? :cry:
I can't believe it. He was one of my favourite characters, he can't die in such a silly way :?
I can't think of a good reason for it to be an illusion either...

I love this post because it pretty much captures everything that's been said in 12 pages of forumizing in 3 lines.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby coyotenose » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:50 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Kreistor wrote:We do not know what was in the head of the dragon. He performed as ordered, though not precisely as desired. The fog of war may have made it think it knew something that it did not. It made a mistake.


Except we know what's going on the dwagon's head. Orders. Only commanding units in Erfworld have the gift of free will to afford to make mistakes. Everybody else blindly follows orders or runs on auto-scritp. And if the order is to make a building start colapsing and then charge inside said colapsing building, well, he was just following orders.


If this were even mostly true, Stanley could never have stood out enough to get promoted. It's pretty clear that most units are simplistic thinkers, because they pop with basic knowledge but not experience. They have nothing to inform their decisions but the orders of units who have developed some worldliness. At the same time, the experienced units are more aware of the numerous ways in which they can mess up, which can affect their performance. Webinar and Dora are prime examples. Webinar is an adolescent emotionally, overcompensating to cover for the feeling that he is in over his head after his successes earn him greater responsibility. Dora is on the cusp of not being a kid anymore, and looks up to Webinar as someone who is role model that is still "young" enough for her to relate. The units they command are comparable to very well-disciplined, educated children. They aren't experienced enough to succeed very well on their own except by luck, but they can succeed. They also aren't experienced enough to fail on their own, since not much can yet be expected of them.

That's why unled units automatically engage in the field; they simply don't know yet what their options are. It's not a mechanical rule. It's an mechanical consequence phrased as a rule. And even if one side if starting to mature and get past that, the odds are vastly against both sides being mature, because those more experienced units get assigned differently.


Trying to second-guess the writer to demean him only works if you can come up with reasoning for the guesses. We have no interesting, reasonably plausible combination of motive and method for a Decryption at this point, so if it happens, it will be almost certainly be done in such a way that you and all of us will be surprised. I'm reminded of the RPGers I've had who rolled their eyes and claimed that a plot point was very predictable, putting on amazingly slappable faces for an hour or two... until they got their characters' heads handed to them because their faux jadedness didn't prepare them for the actual plot, or even for the bizarre twists that the good players were willing to add.


On another note, If Jack did fake his own death, the only good reason at this juncture would be to defect to Jillian, and he can't do that right now. He's Croaked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby junovalkyrie » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:23 pm

ShinyBrownCoat wrote:What does Jack mean when he says "That's irony, really?"
1) tried to croak JS with their statues, croaked himself
2) something about choosing a blind purple instead of a red dwagon
3) had such an interest in tactics but made such a bad blunder
4) Jack dying in such a pointless way
5) something else I'm stupidly missing but is so obvious to everyone else that no one has commented on it yet?

ETA: 6) QuothTheRaven's suggestion that it was because he was crushed by the statue of Sylvia


Ah, but you misquote him, and therefore miss the answer that is right in front of you. What Jack said was, "...irony, really." Obviously he just caught site of a certain LFN and was admonishing it for taking its orders to an absurd extreme. Had he been allowed to finish, he would have said, "Irony, really. Really. I know you were ordered to crush, but that was like three years ago, and bringing down half of the throne room strikes me as overkill."

On a different note, I've never really been much for the Ace-joins-Parson speculation (at least when it involves a non-Decrypted Ace), but with this page I can see them at least peaceably parting ways, depending on how Parson reacts. Earlier this very day Ace watched his closest friend in all of Erf apparently die in front of him, and now Parson is doing the same. Even the manner of death is similar: crushed by debris from a structure collapsed by a purple dragon. This is a situation that is sure to resonate with Ace, at least if Parson's immediate reaction reflects his care for Jack (rather than, say, his pragmatic warlord side, which would recognize that he has no time to stop and mourn when there are still hostile enemies in the area and an inferno to escape).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Salem » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:51 pm

coyotenose wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Kreistor wrote:We do not know what was in the head of the dragon. He performed as ordered, though not precisely as desired. The fog of war may have made it think it knew something that it did not. It made a mistake.


Except we know what's going on the dwagon's head. Orders. Only commanding units in Erfworld have the gift of free will to afford to make mistakes. Everybody else blindly follows orders or runs on auto-scritp. And if the order is to make a building start colapsing and then charge inside said colapsing building, well, he was just following orders.


On another note, If Jack did fake his own death, the only good reason at this juncture would be to defect to Jillian, and he can't do that right now. He's Croaked.


I don't think this statement is entirely true. I'm not saying I believe Jack is alive. I mean I wanted to cry so bad.

Anyway, there are other reasons:

A) Jack believes they are being watched so he lied about being out of juice not to decieve Parson or keep him out of the loop but to decieve someone else. I don't know why he would believe someone was watching.

B) Jack did this as a short term tactic, charge in not knowing who will be alive and play dead so that if someone comes at Parson he can cheap shot them. This is a sound idea.

C) Jack just likes screwing with people?

Also this bit of fooling doesn't necessarily require juice, perhaps there is a certain level of illusion he can maintain for free, I have no idea if that's come up. Also, maybe he just painted his eyelids and closed them. You never know. He didn't get crushed but being thrown from the mount may have done it.

I still am betting against Jack being alive. It's erfworld one of its themes is pointless needless death. Also the dwagon is still alive and apparently unburried.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby mortissimus » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:26 pm

For all those insisting that Jack is alive I offer a not-so-unique opportunity to loose some Quatloo along with your favourite characther. Come one, come all to the betting thread.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby coyotenose » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:24 pm

Salem wrote:I don't think this statement is entirely true. I'm not saying I believe Jack is alive. I mean I wanted to cry so bad.

Anyway, there are other reasons:

A) Jack believes they are being watched so he lied about being out of juice not to decieve Parson or keep him out of the loop but to decieve someone else. I don't know why he would believe someone was watching.

B) Jack did this as a short term tactic, charge in not knowing who will be alive and play dead so that if someone comes at Parson he can cheap shot them. This is a sound idea.

C) Jack just likes screwing with people?

Also this bit of fooling doesn't necessarily require juice, perhaps there is a certain level of illusion he can maintain for free, I have no idea if that's come up. Also, maybe he just painted his eyelids and closed them. You never know. He didn't get crushed but being thrown from the mount may have done it.

I still am betting against Jack being alive. It's erfworld one of its themes is pointless needless death. Also the dwagon is still alive and apparently unburried.


Perhaps I misspoke. I should say that I think the only good reason in general for Jack to fake his death is to turn Sides. However, there's nothing in the story to date to suggest that he'd be about to do that, even if opportunity presented. In the same vein, in general Jack could fake his death to confuse the enemy at Spacerock, but we have no reason to believe that HE believes he needs to fool anyone. There are almost no enemies left, he can't effectively blindside even a piker without juice, and we have no reason to think he was (significantly) lying about being out of juice*. There are reasons he could be faking it; I just don't consider any of them strong enough reasons to believe it.

I also don't go in with those who argue that Jack was an illusion all along, both because it feels weak storywise (but it's always possible for an interesting rationale to pop up), but more importantly because the dwagons reacted to him as a commanding unit and understood his orders despite lacking a common language. From our incomplete understanding of how orders work, I feel that that suggests his physical presence. And yet, he has been acting... not quite as much like himself, hasn't he? Ugh, I hate false hope.

Yeah, Jack had a rough day, he's a caster, and he's clearly fragile even for a caster. The fall could easily have done him in.

* He could have been lying to fool the hostile casters in the Magic Kingdom, but then why not inform his Warlord? Why not cast a useful illusion on his own initiative when combat began in the throne room?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Salem » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:37 pm

coyotenose wrote:
Salem wrote:I don't think this statement is entirely true. I'm not saying I believe Jack is alive. I mean I wanted to cry so bad.

Anyway, there are other reasons:

A) Jack believes they are being watched so he lied about being out of juice not to decieve Parson or keep him out of the loop but to decieve someone else. I don't know why he would believe someone was watching.

B) Jack did this as a short term tactic, charge in not knowing who will be alive and play dead so that if someone comes at Parson he can cheap shot them. This is a sound idea.

C) Jack just likes screwing with people?

Also this bit of fooling doesn't necessarily require juice, perhaps there is a certain level of illusion he can maintain for free, I have no idea if that's come up. Also, maybe he just painted his eyelids and closed them. You never know. He didn't get crushed but being thrown from the mount may have done it.

I still am betting against Jack being alive. It's erfworld one of its themes is pointless needless death. Also the dwagon is still alive and apparently unburried.


Perhaps I misspoke. I should say that I think the only good reason in general for Jack to fake his death is to turn Sides. However, there's nothing in the story to date to suggest that he'd be about to do that, even if opportunity presented. In the same vein, in general Jack could fake his death to confuse the enemy at Spacerock, but we have no reason to believe that HE believes he needs to fool anyone. There are almost no enemies left, he can't effectively blindside even a piker without juice, and we have no reason to think he was (significantly) lying about being out of juice*. There are reasons he could be faking it; I just don't consider any of them strong enough reasons to believe it.

I also don't go in with those who argue that Jack was an illusion all along, both because it feels weak storywise (but it's always possible for an interesting rationale to pop up), but more importantly because the dwagons reacted to him as a commanding unit and understood his orders despite lacking a common language. From our incomplete understanding of how orders work, I feel that that suggests his physical presence. And yet, he has been acting... not quite as much like himself, hasn't he? Ugh, I hate false hope.

Yeah, Jack had a rough day, he's a caster, and he's clearly fragile even for a caster. The fall could easily have done him in.

* He could have been lying to fool the hostile casters in the Magic Kingdom, but then why not inform his Warlord? Why not cast a useful illusion on his own initiative when combat began in the throne room?


Yeah I'll repeat again. I don't think he's alive. I was just pointing out reasons, and if he could non magically fool an opponent into believing he is dead I would wager he COULD blindside a piker. Especially one concerned with the living warlord.

I also agree we have no reason to believe he believes there is some watcher watching, but that doesn't necessarily apply to the suggestion of combating survivors. However it is always possible he was given information off panel by everyone's favorite predictamancer or someone like Forum (Not exactly Master Class Predictamancer): "It's charlie. Charlie is always watching."

Also, I get that falling off his mount could have caused his death but that seems really crappy. I mean really really crappy. That's like Wash crappy. I mean it's not even meaningless it's just ugh. If teh rocks crushed him that would be sad and meaningless. If he just fell and died when something more killey and easily available was there it would just seem stupid.
"Too cute to (stay) croak(ed)!"
Salem
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