Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:26 pm

So how is Book 0 going to be published? I think something will be lost if these revelations about Charlie and Judy and Jack's awareness of the Arkenshoes probably being in Stupidworld aren't interleaved with Book 2 the way we're seeing them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Noigel » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Still not convinced those were the real Arkenshoes... just an exceptionally elaborate and complicated Wanda-bluff and Jack-ruse... yes, even Olive experiencing the Overlady scope increase...

...cause Jack is that awesome. :)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby cheeseaholic » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:19 pm

Oh, and it appears that someone needs to accept a unit turning to their side. So no quick turning to Jetstone and walking out (assuming rules for available move allowed that) and then quickly turning back. Not unless someone is willing to allow them. Either willingly or via spell.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Beeskee » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:01 pm

I'm pretty sure the text is saying that the shoes did disappear. Everything else dropped to the floor.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Tathar » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:29 pm

tgriff02 wrote:Wait, Wanda might still be concidered Royal herself.... I just rmemebered that. Well, part of my theory has a big hole in it, but I'm ok with that. The truth will comeo ut in the end, probably, lol. It doesn't change the fact that I think the tools purpose might be to be unified into a cohesive and frighteningly effecient army.

She's not a Royal. Her dad was an Overlord, not a King. (Dunno if those are supposed to be capitalized.)
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Tathar » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:37 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Castamir wrote:There's no hint whatsoever that the shoes affect more than one unit. No other arkentool or magic item does that (empowering an area spell, or veiling an unit from the sight of many doesn't count). I'm not saying that's not possible, just that the update said "you" rather than "your stack".

It was foolamancy, so may not match what is actually possible, but Jack depicted the Hammer enabling Stanley to fly with Jack.

Jinren wrote:1: it's awfully convenient that Wanda and Charlie's tools should match their discipline so perfectly, when Stanley has no specific magic discipline and we don't know about Judy, calling into question whether a match is required for attunement (if it is, Jetstone evidently didn't know about that, since nothing about any of the princes matches up with Wanda's eventual use of the Pliers);

Judy's match with a transportation item could be her status as an outworlder. That doesn't mean that any outworlder will attune, just as being a croakamancer is not necessarily sufficient for attunement to the Pliers, but it might mean that outworlders like Parson are the best candidates for Shoe attunement. (I wonder if Judy conquered Charlie's city, in spite of liking him, because she wanted the Arkenshoes that he had thought he would attune to but didn't.)

It doesn't necessarily mean that Parson would attune, no. However, it would be inconceivable plotwise if any other possibility were to come true.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Tathar » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:39 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:Also, random thought: Judy is Erf-sized. We always assumed that Erfworders were smaller than people from Stupidworld/Reality, but maybe the truth is that Parson's size was altered when Stanley commanded Wanda to "Just make him BIG okay?" as she was casting the summoning spell.

That makes sense. We'll see.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Tathar » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:45 pm

Whoops, seems I read this update wrong. Yeah, Arkenshoes are gone. It could result in a return trip for Parson back to Erfworld though.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Beeskee » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:55 pm

I had to go back and read it twice the first time, since I wasn't sure.

Oh hey a quote of mine in someone's sig. ^.^ Cool. :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Tathar » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:06 pm

Beeskee wrote:I had to go back and read it twice the first time, since I wasn't sure.

Oh hey a quote of mine in someone's sig. ^.^ Cool. :D

I figured there's been so much speculation on Charlie thus far that it was worth quoting.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Turtlewing » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:16 pm

niklinna wrote:http://www.erfworld.com/2010/02/book-2-–-page-20/

In panel 4, Jillian refers to "the fourth Arkentool", even though we've now seen that she knows (or at least knew) their proper name. If she does remember them later, wouldn't she just say "the Arkenshoes"?


Not if she didn't mean the shoes. It's implied that there were at one time an unspecified quantity of arekintools most of which were taken from Erf by the titans when they left. It's only stated that there are curently 4 known arkintools left in Erf. If the arkenshoes are gone from Erf (and have been for a long time) they wouldn't be the 4th tool.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby imgran » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:18 am

CelebrenIthil wrote:Also, random thought: Judy is Erf-sized. We always assumed that Erfworders were smaller than people from Stupidworld/Reality, but maybe the truth is that Parson's size was altered when Stanley commanded Wanda to "Just make him BIG okay?" as she was casting the summoning spell.


A couple reasonable alternate theories center around Parson as a Heavy unit because he is actually rather tall (I'd guesstimate him at roughly 6'2" maybe taller, easily the tallest person in the gaming room even with the bizarre hey-i-just-learned-how-to-do-3D-perspective camera angles futzing with our ability to really make a solid analysis), plus his weight, define a large part of how he perceives himself, meaning his Signamancy would almost force him to be a Heavy unit because he's used to being one of the largest things in the room.

Compare that to Judy who came in as a child and whose signamancy wouldn't assign her an unusual size type by default.

I think what we're seeing is some of the ways Signamancy allows Erfworlders to create themselves. In fact the fact that Judy ISN'T all that big kind of does hearken back to the signamancy defining your physical aspects in Erfworld, even for Stupidworlders. Not so much you body then, as your body image. Parson slimming down radically over the course of the story feeds into that as well, if you'll pardon the play on words.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby CelebrenIthil » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:38 am

Tathar wrote:That makes sense. We'll see.


Maybe I should join in the betting thread hahah

TheMutant wrote:My thought on that was that it could be Signamancy at work. Judy's surely been in Erfworld a long time, and considered it her home- natural Signamancy seems to boil down to 'you look like what you are', what with Stanley being pint-sized and particularly cartoonish, Jillian's appearance changing slightly (as noticed by Vinny) as she takes on the responsibilities of ruling Faq, Slately looking fat and pompous... So perhaps, in feeling she was home, forming emotional bonds with other Erfworlders, Judy became Erf-scale and the like accordingly. Maybe we'll see such changes in Parson eventually (though he'll surely remain a Heavy).

Or your thought could be right. :>

imgran wrote:A couple reasonable alternate theories center around Parson as a Heavy unit because he is actually rather tall (I'd guesstimate him at roughly 6'2" maybe taller, easily the tallest person in the gaming room even with the bizarre hey-i-just-learned-how-to-do-3D-perspective camera angles futzing with our ability to really make a solid analysis), plus his weight, define a large part of how he perceives himself, meaning his Signamancy would almost force him to be a Heavy unit because he's used to being one of the largest things in the room.

Compare that to Judy who came in as a child and whose signamancy wouldn't assign her an unusual size type by default.

I think what we're seeing is some of the ways Signamancy allows Erfworlders to create themselves. In fact the fact that Judy ISN'T all that big kind of does hearken back to the signamancy defining your physical aspects in Erfworld, even for Stupidworlders. Not so much you body then, as your body image. Parson slimming down radically over the course of the story feeds into that as well, if you'll pardon the play on words.


Hm-hm, your theories could make sense too; but yeah they all share an overarching theme of Parson's Signamancy (his size) being influenced in some way or other to make him bigger than regular Erfworlders. (He's Twoll-sized tho' ...so I guess I just implied Twolls are not regular Erfworlders. Poor Twolls.) Did Parson "wish himself" that way because that's how he thinks about himself or was it part of the summoning spell just like the Sword of Ruthlessness (which did indeed affect his behaviour), or something else...? We'll see, I suppose! :3
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Kreistor » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:54 pm

Well, I'm coming in late. Because someone pissed me off, and I didn't want to transfer that to you guys. So, we get a lot of info, and a lot of it is going to be treated as canon, unjustifiably.

Let's get started.

1) The Arkenshoes
1a) Only two mentioned abilities, both movement related -- unlimited Move and teleportation Home -- with little expert description. Well, can't get everything. So...
1b) No obvious associated Primary School -- nothing is known to break down the Hex barriers. Hopefully, this puts that on the backburner until something definitive comes forward.
1c) Judy (or Charlie, depending on how you interpret her words) sounds like she knows their abilities from previous Attuned users, not jsut her own experimentation. That is not definitive, but the wording suggests a constant power across multiple users, rather than my go to "Powers change by user" counter-theory (I use it to counter people convinced of whatever, rather than believe in it myself). So, I'll back off on that one until I get more definitive info. It is still possible that they gave her powers based on her own need, were I to go with a particular interpretation, but I admit that it's less likely.

2) Information on Charlie
2a) He was the "wizard of Efbaum" I've not been involved in discussions on that, so I'll have to look that up, and what your theories are.
2b) this adds one other Reference ot Charlie's current pile -- Wizard of Oz, Charlie of the Angels, and Howard Hughes.This adds a new level to his character, that of con man. The Wizard was a definite con, and Hughes was often thought as such: he was a brilliant marketer of himself and his company, before his retreat into seclusion. But I have a hard time linking "Foolamancer" to "Wizard", for Erfworlders without a frame of reference. Were he a Foolamancer, Wizard wouldn't be the obvious thing to call himself. Definitely not definitive, but seems an odd choice without Earthworld knwoledge, but he coudl get that from Judy, if she named him.
2c) Judy does not mention the Wizard being from her reality, but Judy herself could be the source of all of Charlie's Earthworld knowledge and capacity for referencing. With knwoeldge of another reality, and access to "Wizardry", Charlie may have tapped directly into our world, potentially via the Arkendish. If it can pick up any signals from Erfworld, then could it not pick up signals from Earthworld?
2d) In short, where I foresee a lot of people thinking they got support for their pet theories on Charlie, he really is just as elusive as ever.
2e) Charlie understands Parson's l33tspeak, and that has supported the idea he is from Earthworld; however, this text points out that Jillian understands more than "Kill", but "year" as well. Charlie may understand Parson for exactly the same inexplicable knowledge.

3) Judy and Earthworld
3a) No info on how she got to Erf.
3b) There is a way for Parson to get Home... if he wants to go.
3c) The Arkenshoes now have great significance to Parson, giving him back basic Earthworld movement.

4) Wanda
4a) Interesting to note that Wanda has had two of four Arkentools pass into her possession, and tantalizingly close to a third. But the first did not attune when she brought them to Judy.
4b) I think that spells the end to the general ideas that all four will come to her and she will change the world. She couldn't attune to the Shoes.

[Edit: I meant to say "Thinkamancer" not "Foolamancer" in 2b. Missed that in the edit phase. Seems people knew what I meant anyway.]
Last edited by Kreistor on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Delbert » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:19 pm

@ Kreistor:

1) Thanks for waiting until your improved emotional state;

2) In reference to your last sentence in item (4b): I don't recall any specific mention that Wanda *couldn't* attune to the shoes, just that there was no mention that she had attuned to them. Remember, Wanda hadn't necessarily heard the Prediction from Marie(?) that she was due an Arkentool (the art from Wanda's flashback during her conversation with Parson on the subject showed her in FAQ colors, so she wouldn't have had the Prediction yet).

Factors your assumption did not consider:

1) A new potential wielder may not be able to attune until there is no current wielder (and the rules may vary per Tool), by some internal logic of interpretation of "no current wielder" (Croaked/Outside of Erfworld/Incapacitated/ etc.);

2) Wanda may not have been ready to attune *then* (her signamancy indicates she was pretty messed up, which may throw her attunement-capable status off), but may be now (assuming that it's even possible to attune to multiple Tools).

Just food for precise thought....
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:22 pm

Kreistor wrote:[Charlie's label as a "Wizard"]

This actually touches on a theory I have had for a while about Charlie, namely a suspicion that he isn't a Thinkamancer, at least not primarily. Thinkamancy is an almost entirely invisible and subtle school, you don't see much physical effect from a Thinkamancer's spells. So why would Charlie be described as skilled and powerful in magic, with the implication that it was flashy and obvious, if he were a Thinkamancer?

I'd speculate that if he is a caster at all, he's actually a Carny. It fits the theme of his Wizard reference, it's a school that could be flashy and showy if the caster wants it to be, and it makes Kingworld possible as just a duo-link.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:39 pm

Delbert wrote:1) A new potential wielder may not be able to attune until there is no current wielder (and the rules may vary per Tool), by some internal logic of interpretation of "no current wielder" (Croaked/Outside of Erfworld/Incapacitated/ etc.)


See, I was just making this assumption from the begining. Judy clearly conciders the shoes hers from the way she speaks, and while that's not exactly STATING the fact, it very clearly implies that she was already attuned. I suppose that there could be some grounds to wonder or speculate about whether or not a tool can attune to a new holder if they are taken and kept from the currently attuned long enough, but we have no evidence to support that, or under what conditions it could occur. Unless some other evidence is presented I'm gonna go on the assumption that once attuned they stay attuned, although we also now have a prescedent for a tool being taken away, and denied its attuned weilder. I also agree with Kreistor that the way Judy speaks strongly implies that the tools actually DO have a set powerset, although it's still not completely ironclad. I also don't see any new evidence presented that the tools are associated strongly with any particualr school. I don't see any evidence that they are NOT either, so both theories remain valid at this piont, to me. I think that we CAN conclude that charlie is, in fact, a caster of SOME sort, although it's still up in the air what sort. Judy seemed pretty clear that he was a wizard, and that "Charlie knows everything." I do think that Judy and Charlie have spoken at some great length during her stint in Erf, whether or not they are actually reconciled over her conquoring his Side remains to be seen, but they seem to at least be friendly enemies if they haven't.

All in all, this update had given some serious concrete to a handfull of proposed theories about specific hows and whys; but left most of the bigger, overarching debates open for guessing. Just the way a top notch author like Rob should play it, lol.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby bladestorm » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:00 pm

The individualized powers theory still stands. Judy knows what the shoes do because she has used them before. The last time she used them to go 'home', it brought here to Haffaton, where her friends were.

“But they do one other thing, that I know of,” said Judy, “they can send you home.”

“You are home,” snapped Dame Branch. “This is where they sent you the last time you used them.”

If you ask Wanda what the Pliers do, she would be able to tell you, based upon what she has used them for in the past. It doesn't mean she knew what the previously attuned wielder did with them.

Also compare this update's “I think that the ’Shoes send you where you belong, is what it is. That’s how the Wizard put it, at least. And he'd know. Charlie knows everything, doesn’t he?” with Wanda telling Parson that he didn't wish for Erfworld, Erfworld wished for him.


On another side note, the Charlie s a Carny theory gained a small amount of traction, if only in that the Wizard was a conman and huckster -- what better than a carnymancer to fill that role?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby build6 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:34 am

Jamus wrote:did Charlie ALSO have a hand in bringing Parson into Erfworld?


the way i saw it, it seemed more along the lines of "the various casters who wanted to shake off Charlie thought that in order to beat someone from stupidworld, you need someone from stupidworld"
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Goshen » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:15 am

bladestorm wrote:The individualized powers theory still stands. Judy knows what the shoes do because she has used them before. The last time she used them to go 'home', it brought here to Haffaton, where her friends were.

“But they do one other thing, that I know of,” said Judy, “they can send you home.”

“You are home,” snapped Dame Branch. “This is where they sent you the last time you used them.”

If you ask Wanda what the Pliers do, she would be able to tell you, based upon what she has used them for in the past. It doesn't mean she knew what the previously attuned wielder did with them.

Also compare this update's “I think that the ’Shoes send you where you belong, is what it is. That’s how the Wizard put it, at least. And he'd know. Charlie knows everything, doesn’t he?” with Wanda telling Parson that he didn't wish for Erfworld, Erfworld wished for him.


On another side note, the Charlie s a Carny theory gained a small amount of traction, if only in that the Wizard was a conman and huckster -- what better than a carnymancer to fill that role?


Thank you, Bladestorm. I think you are exactly right.

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