Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:54 pm

Ambug666 wrote:Oooooooooooooo!

What if Parson is Judy's son?


Don't. LoL. That could be really fun; but a really scary development. let's avoid that particular thicket of trees for a bit lol.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby StClair » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:08 pm

Bye, Judy. May you find Kansas more to your liking than you remember.

And now, Olive, you are booped.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Castamir » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:12 pm

Aquillion wrote:I seriously doubt Olive will survive this.

While, strictly speaking, Jillian has been Predicted only to croak a ruler of Haffaton, it'd take quite an amount of writing for her to croak anyone else than Olive. And croaking some random innocent just-promoted warlord, after getting rid of Olive in some way first, would go pretty badly with the readers.

So the chances of Olive avoiding a meeting with Three-Edged pretty soon are rather slim.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:37 pm

Hmmmmm..... I'm thinking, we don't really know the rules for attunement. Thus far the Arkentools have demonstrated a dislike of Royal units, but Sylvia is implied to have ALMOST attuned to the pliers, so they may not be all THAT picky. The tools could be Fate aligned in that they have a purpose and function in Erf, and they seek to fullfill that purpose, but that doesn't mean their powers have to be Fate alligned. Im not entirely positive that their powers HAVE to be alligned with any specific school. But let's take what we already know, or at least have been told, about them and apply that to a party, say a stack of 4 warlords, or even a single warlord that manages to attune to all 4 of them.

-Arkenshoes, unlimited move (possibly but neither confirmed nor denied even off turn and possibly but not stated to extend to a stack).
-Arkenpliers, Decrypted. Now we have an ever growin army of upkeepless units that function like living units, lead by a warlord with unlimited move.
-Arkendish, unmatched thinkamancy, possible access to Archon popping. Now, we have and army of Decrypted, supported by flying knight class units capable of stealth, some leaderships, and minor magical abilites which can grant dancefighting to all units on your side at the given location; all lead by a leader with unlimited move and unlimited thinkamancy to guide all encounters.
-Arkenhammer, taming dwagons, flight, shockamancy, and rocking out. So, now our infinite upkeep free army has access to seige units, can be led in dancefighting by the Archons, which can use unlimited thinkamancy to talk to the command corps. Those archons, in turn; are being led by a crack team of elite archons and Decrypted warlords A'Dwagonback and Rocking Out.

Edited because i think faster than I type, lol.
In short, if the 'Shoes augment transportation, the 'Pliers supply base shocktroop units, the 'Dish covers communication and grants specialized tactical units, and the 'Hammer can bring in Heavy Seige units, and cover the Leadership Stack with incredibly powerful combat augmenting abilites; then we have a DAMN powerful combination of tools here all unified on one side, and I don't want to think about the possiblity of synergetic combo interactions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:46 pm

tgriff02 wrote:Hmmmmm..... I'm thinking, we don't really know the rules for attunement. Thus far the Arkentools have demonstrated a dislike of Royal units, but Sylvia is implied to have ALMOST attuned to the pliers, so they may not be all THAT picky.

Just an important note, Sylvia isn't actually a Royal. She, like Stanley, started as basic infantry, and was promoted to warlord after JoJo pulled his trick with her. So she wouldn't have the Royal special.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:55 pm

0beron wrote:
tgriff02 wrote:Hmmmmm..... I'm thinking, we don't really know the rules for attunement. Thus far the Arkentools have demonstrated a dislike of Royal units, but Sylvia is implied to have ALMOST attuned to the pliers, so they may not be all THAT picky.

Just an important note, Sylvia isn't actually a Royal. She, like Stanley, started as basic infantry, and was promoted to warlord after JoJo pulled his trick with her. So she wouldn't have the Royal special.


Right, i was thinking of her as in she almost attuned to them right before Wanda (the very next non-royal unit to touch them) succeeded. Ergo, my statement that the tools might not be as picky as would seem as to who they become "special friends" with ;) My statement was poorly worded and punctuated. Sorry for the confusion.
Last edited by tgriff02 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:57 pm

tgriff02 wrote:
0beron wrote:
tgriff02 wrote:Hmmmmm..... I'm thinking, we don't really know the rules for attunement. Thus far the Arkentools have demonstrated a dislike of Royal units, but Sylvia is implied to have ALMOST attuned to the pliers, so they may not be all THAT picky.

Just an important note, Sylvia isn't actually a Royal. She, like Stanley, started as basic infantry, and was promoted to warlord after JoJo pulled his trick with her. So she wouldn't have the Royal special.


Right, i was thinking of her as in she almost attuned to them right before Wanda (the very next non-royal unit to touch them) succeeded. Ergo, my statement that the tools might not be as picky as would seem as to who they become "special friends" with ;)



Wait, Wanda might still be concidered Royal herself.... I just rmemebered that. Well, part of my theory has a big hole in it, but I'm ok with that. The truth will comeo ut in the end, probably, lol. It doesn't change the fact that I think the tools purpose might be to be unified into a cohesive and frighteningly effecient army.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:10 pm

tgriff02 wrote:Wait, Wanda might still be considered Royal herself.... I just remembered that.

Wanda never was a Royal. She was at one point Heir-designate and then Overlady, but of a non-Royal side. Wanda is not a Royal unit.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:36 pm

0beron wrote:
tgriff02 wrote:Wait, Wanda might still be considered Royal herself.... I just remembered that.

Wanda never was a Royal. She was at one point Heir-designate and then Overlady, but of a non-Royal side. Wanda is not a Royal unit.


Based on what do we know this? She was popped Lady Wanda Firebough, of the Firebough Tribe. Granted, we know that not all members of a tribe are Royal or Noble (see Stanly the Plaid), but so far we have only seen Noble/Royal units use titles of Lord and Ladyship.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Silverhorn » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:39 pm

Castamir wrote:
Silverhorn wrote:We now know how Haffaton could conquer cities so easily in the first part of Book 0. Remember how Haffaton could seemingly drop huge armies on cities very quickly? They would just drop with no warning. No one could figure out how they did it. The answer is the Archenshoes. [...]
If my hypothesis is correct, then I am willing to say the Archenshoes are the most powerful of the Archentools. Why? The Archenshoes allow a side to concentrate and disperse its forces instaneously. It allows them to move incapacitated units to remote caretakers.[...]
In Erfworld this would be even more effective. Especially if you had a little Lookamancy. Assassination becomes a LOT more viable. And the threat of assassination becomes a powerful tool. Basically Judy could march up with her elite kill squad (an it sounds like she had one) and take out your ruler and heir I one turn. But if the ruler keeps his army close to stop assassination attempts, then Judy marches her army up to weak cities and takes you piece meal.

There's no hint whatsoever that the shoes affect more than one unit. No other arkentool or magic item does that (empowering an area spell, or veiling an unit from the sight of many doesn't count). I'm not saying that's not possible, just that the update said "you" rather than "your stack".


I guess I have to quote hunt. That is alright. At least someone noticed what I said.

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png
"Charlie could . . . extend some of his abilities to his personal Archons in the tower."

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... mWanda.jpg
"And when Ansom, Chief Warlord of Gobwin Knob and a Decrypted unit himself, led a stack of six Decrypted heavies and knights with Wanda Firebaugh, Chief Croakamancer and attuned wielder of the Arkenpliers...
The worst unit in the stack had an attack of thirty." (bolded wielder of the archenpliers because the fact that it was listed in addition to Wanda's status as a Croakmancer, it mans it is a separate source of her bonus)

It is very clear that 2 of the known Archentools grant powers or bonuses to those beyond just those attuned to them. It is also weakly implied that the Archenhammer grants Stanley a bonus to his units or to dwagons. I hope you agree that there is now ample evidence that Archentools have a theme of effecting and buffig beings other than just their attuned user.

Given the only thing we know about the Archenshoes is that they grant unlimited move to the attuned wielder, that power is laughably weak if it can't be extended to others. There are probably casters that could grant extra movement, even out of turn. But extend that power to the attuned user's stack? Now we have something worthy of the name "Archen-" It does not necessarily mean that all the stacked units now get infinite move, but some means of increasing movement would fit well within the theme.

tgriff02 wrote:-Arkenshoes, unlimited move (possibly but neither confirmed nor denied even off turn and possibly but not stated to extend to a stack).


The Arkenshoes would allow you to move off turn. Remember the mechanic for movement? Movement is resource that units gain at the start of their turn. They use it to move from one hex to another based on the nature of that hex. At the end of your turn your movement goes to 0. That is kind of an elaborate mechanic when you get down to it. It would be easier to just say units can't move when it is not their turn. But units are aware that their movement disappears at the end of the turn. So to me that means "Unlimited movement" basically means you always have movement. You could move off turn.

---------

Finally I can actually visualize how the Archenshoes and Archendish could be used to create a world now. The Archenshoes would allow a Titan to effortlessly move to where he needed during Creation. The Archendish would allow the Titans to stay in perfect communication as they create.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:40 pm

tgriff02 wrote:Based on what do we know this? She was popped Lady Wanda Firebough, of the Firebough Tribe. Granted, we know that not all members of a tribe are Royal or Noble (see Stanly the Plaid), but so far we have only seen Noble/Royal units use titles of Lord and Ladyship.

Well the simplest answer is that Firebaugh was very explicitly OVERLORD Firebaugh, and Wanda was briefly OVERLADY.
A less simple answer is the fact that it appears Lord and Lady are not exclusively noble/royal titles. Their use has been debated, and nobody is really sure of what protocol determines that, but in this case it's irrelevant because we have the above evidence to show she isn't Royal.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:50 pm

0beron wrote: Well the simplest answer is that Firebaugh was very explicitly OVERLORD Firebaugh, and Wanda was briefly OVERLADY.
A less simple answer is the fact that it appears Lord and Lady are not exclusively noble/royal titles. Their use has been debated, and nobody is really sure of what protocol determines that, but in this case it's irrelevant because we have the above evidence to show she isn't Royal.

I'm not following. Overlord/Overlady is the head of the side. Every side has an Overlord or overlady, SOME of those happen to be lucky enough to be Royal and get the improved stats that go with, and may use a title like King or Queen, but they are still the Overlord of the Side. Just as Ansom was an Heir, he was still Cheif Warlord. Hasn't Don been refered to as Overlord of Transylvitto, but he's Royal.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:52 pm

No, sorry tgriff but you're mistaken. All sides have a Ruler. Rulers of royal sides are called Kings/Queens, and Rulers of non-royal sides are Overlord/Overlady.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Ruler
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:07 pm

0beron wrote:No, sorry tgriff but you're mistaken. All sides have a Ruler. Rulers of royal sides are called Kings/Queens, and Rulers of non-royal sides are Overlord/Overlady.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Ruler


So, we have WoG on that clarification, thanks. I had never seen the reference and I don't normally fool with the wiki since there's so much still unknown and I have neither the time nor energy to make meaningful contributions.

Although, I discovered something interesting, albeit uselessat this point in discussions, while trying to find if Don King had ever beenr efered to as Overlord. During the battle with Stanly, the Dwagons, Jack, and the TV's. Jacks veil caused the TV's and Jillian to believe that the Dwagons had lost their leadership bonus, due to Stanly unstacking. Stanley had not unstacked. Jack can veil stats. It seems like an obvious function of a veil, but still.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Jinren » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:08 pm

Has there been any direct evidence prior to this update (wherein someone actually says in so many words, "what do they do?") that Arkentools have any inherent or specific built-in purpose? Even in this update the answer is qualified as "that I know of".

Because - these are old observations, but I think remain relevant -

1: it's awfully convenient that Wanda and Charlie's tools should match their discipline so perfectly, when Stanley has no specific magic discipline and we don't know about Judy, calling into question whether a match is required for attunement (if it is, Jetstone evidently didn't know about that, since nothing about any of the princes matches up with Wanda's eventual use of the Pliers);

2: Stanley is not a caster, nor a genius, nor particularly curious about magic theory - he almost certainly hasn't got the initiative or expertise to actually investigate the Hammer's true potential, even if he can wield it. It would naturally seem underpowered if its power is being ignored. Wanda and Charlie on the other hand are(/appear to be) master-class casters with a deep insight into their schools of magic, who would naturally eke out every relevant drop of potential from their Tools.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:13 pm

Jinren wrote:[Comments on what the Tools do]

That's a very good point, and I think the answer is likely a mix of several factors, in no particular order of importance:
  • The idea of Fate, and the possibility that Tools are intended to be found by those who can make the best use out of their inherent function.
  • Tools have certain innate powers, but they are strongest when attuned to someone who understand that discipline/power
  • This is a comic, with a story that at least toys with the idea of Fate...naturally some things will seem just too coincidental from the reader's perspective.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby mortissimus » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:20 pm

On wheter Lord/Lady is Noble or not, my impression is that what we have is a) in Stupidworld those are noble titles and b) in Erfworld Viscount Caesar Borgata is refered to as "barely a Noble" - http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ng_600.jpg - and Viscount is in Stupidworld a much higher title then a mere Lord/Lady.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby splintermute » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:31 pm

Is Orwell the worst Lookamancer ever, or was he in on the plan?

Here we have a unit whose primary power is to observe things, and who should be able to see through Foolamancy, who is ostensibly newly loyal to Olive. He has to have seen through Jack's distraction/illusion/whatever and known about the Chillaxe switch - if not, then Lookamancy, as a discipline, is useless - but didn't warn her. I think his purpose was to lull Olive into a false sense of security - with a Lookamancer on her side, any threat from a Foolamancer would be neutralized, so she might drop her guard around Jack.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:06 pm

splintermute wrote:Is Orwell the worst Lookamancer ever, or was he in on the plan?

Here we have a unit whose primary power is to observe things, and who should be able to see through Foolamancy, who is ostensibly newly loyal to Olive. He has to have seen through Jack's distraction/illusion/whatever and known about the Chillaxe switch - if not, then Lookamancy, as a discipline, is useless - but didn't warn her. I think his purpose was to lull Olive into a false sense of security - with a Lookamancer on her side, any threat from a Foolamancer would be neutralized, so she might drop her guard around Jack.


I rather think that it was Orwell and Banhammer who dropped their guard. Olive has offered Loj everything he could possibly dream of as far as dealing witht he fall of Faq is concerned. Now, maybe she really DOES want to conquer Erf for peace, maybe she's just stringing him along. Either way, she showed him what he wanted to see and the bait was just too tantilizing to pass up. Banhammer and Orwell both were totally convinced of the wisdom, no more like the NEED, to have everyone turn to Haffaton. I think that in their arrogance and self-importance neither ever dreamed they migh tbe wrong, or that anyone else in the court might disagree. Banhammer certainly would never expect outright undermining and rebellion from within his own ranks, outisde Jillian of course. I think it just never occured to them that Jack WOULD do anything other than blindly follow his King.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 062

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:20 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:Perhaps king Banhammer is acting this way because of his Fate. He's fated to die, and his daughter and heir is a psychopath. He wants to leave behind his chosen legacy, and suddenly he runs into a caster (the unit type he holds his philosophical debates with) ruler who's willing to absorb Faq, both in terms of units and of philosophy, and fight for peace. He wants to believe.

And perhaps this is the right option. Because he knows that Faq under Jillian will be just another side. The odds of Haffaton carrying out Faq's legacy must seem to him to be greater even at this moment than Jillian carrying out Faq's legacy.


I don't know if psychopath is really applicable to Jillian.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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