Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby wrecan » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:21 pm

bladestorm wrote:I don't think it was Marie at all that was making those determinations for Jack.

And, yet, it was.

Caesar: he kept all yer cities veiled at once?
Jillian: No, obviously not. One city at a time as determined by Predictamancer.

Jillian may have avoided court, but as a warlord and heir I think she'd be well-acquainted with her Side's defenses.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby ftl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:09 pm

bladestorm wrote:I don't think it was Marie at all that was making those determinations for Jack. Predictamancy deals with events that will appen regardless of what actions you take to prevent them. Using a foolamancer to veil cities that are Predicted to be encountered would be resisting Fate.


So don't predict which cities will have an encounter! Predict which city hexes will have enemy units in them. Don't resist fate, work with it.

Faq had a powerful Lookamancer, and a Mathemancer, and a Signamancer. Lookamancer to scout the next two hexes in any direction (and that mountainous territory had to eat up a lot of move), Mathemancer to determine odds of which approach would be used, and signamancer to make things that look like regular landscape from above (camouflage and cover) or at least make them not look like a city Combine the signmancer's camouflage with the foolamancer's distraction (something shiny over to the right when the city would be on the left of the approach through the gap in the mountains). Keep the shockamancer on hand to deal with wandering barbarian units or animal units with some prepped traps. Odd for a Side with an extraordinarily high number of casters to only use a predictamancer and a foolamancer for their defenses and let the others just idle/rot at Court. Then again, the account of Faq's defenses came from Jillian, who only got along with a handful of people at Faq.


Well, they didn't use JUST the foolamancer/predictamancer. The foolamancer/predictamancer was all they needed to do to veil their cities and to determine where near the cities it was safe for units to end turn. They used the lookamancer to plot out routes for returning raiding parties (to avoid enemy units which were already there). There may have been other things the signamancer did with terrain that we just don't know about.

But the foolamancy/predictamancy combo was what they used to decide which cities to veil and then veil them...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:50 pm

bladestorm wrote:I don't think it was Marie at all that was making those determinations for Jack. Predictamancy deals with events that will appen regardless of what actions you take to prevent them. Using a foolamancer to veil cities that are Predicted to be encountered would be resisting Fate. Faq had a powerful Lookamancer, and a Mathemancer, and a Signamancer. Lookamancer to scout the next two hexes in any direction (and that mountainous territory had to eat up a lot of move), Mathemancer to determine odds of which approach would be used, and signamancer to make things that look like regular landscape from above (camouflage and cover) or at least make them not look like a city Combine the signmancer's camouflage with the foolamancer's distraction (something shiny over to the right when the city would be on the left of the approach through the gap in the mountains). Keep the shockamancer on hand to deal with wandering barbarian units or animal units with some prepped traps. Odd for a Side with an extraordinarily high number of casters to only use a predictamancer and a foolamancer for their defenses and let the others just idle/rot at Court. Then again, the account of Faq's defenses came from Jillian, who only got along with a handful of people at Faq.


No from what we have been told FAQ's defense relied on Jack, Marie and Orwell. Marie would predict if anyone would come while orwell will search the area, and Jack viels the cities as needed. That's it... really no need for a signamancer to camouflage something when Jack can hide it completely and perfectly. And no need to send out a shockmancer to deal with Barabrian's when you can just send the much more expendable troops

It is odd for a side to make such little use of their casters but Faq is just that; an odd side. Between their casters and their air power Faq could have been a very powerful side, but all they care about is discussing philosophy. As far as Banhammer is concerned, those other casters serve their purpose by being part of his court. Really its probably been countless turns since their healomancer has actually had to heal anyone, Shockamancer probably never see's any work, and signamancer probably spent most of his days trying to make Faq more beautiful.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby 0beron » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:01 am

MonteCristo wrote:Shockamancer probably never see's any work, and signamancer probably spent most of his days trying to make Faq more beautiful.

Ooooh I'd disagree, that fellow is hard at work every day no doubt! :shock:
And though you're technically right about the Signamancer, the effect is probably much deeper than your cursory wording suggests. In Erfworld, form literally equals function, so a Signamancer's work can have drastic effects on the actual mechanics of the side. Reducing upkeep, increasing efficiency of resources, and perhaps even increasing the odds of casters popping could all be within his purview. So while the effects may not be as readily obvious, I have no doubt he was just as busy as GK-era Wanda was.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby Azukar » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:01 am

0beron wrote:And though you're technically right about the Signamancer, the effect is probably much deeper than your cursory wording suggests. In Erfworld, form literally equals function, so a Signamancer's work can have drastic effects on the actual mechanics of the side. Reducing upkeep, increasing efficiency of resources, and perhaps even increasing the odds of casters popping could all be within his purview. So while the effects may not be as readily obvious, I have no doubt he was just as busy as GK-era Wanda was.


I wonder if a talented and creative Signamancer could *change* an enemy unit's Signamancy and thus affect their stats. As in, BAM, I've just turned you into, say, Nyancat. You gain the Flight Special but lose all your combat stats.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby ftl » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:35 am

Probably. Sounds like something that's doable.

If war paint on your side is natural signamancy, you can throw pink glitter on the other guys to make them wimpier.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby bladestorm » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:50 am

wrecan wrote:
bladestorm wrote:I don't think it was Marie at all that was making those determinations for Jack.

And, yet, it was.

Caesar: he kept all yer cities veiled at once?
Jillian: No, obviously not. One city at a time as determined by Predictamancer.

Jillian may have avoided court, but as a warlord and heir I think she'd be well-acquainted with her Side's defenses.

There's a lot of things Jillian should, but she doesn't. And this was Jillian's recounting of what happened, and she was being asked under pressure from Ceasar. She didn't owe him any explanation or justification, but she answered anyway. She has a long history of lying about her side, all through Book 0 and however long until Book 1. She's damaged goods, so I don't trust anything that comes out of her mouth. Let Jack, Marie, Wanda or any of the casters from Faq make the same statement, and then it might be believable.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby effataigus » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am

Azukar wrote:I wonder if a talented and creative Signamancer could *change* an enemy unit's Signamancy and thus affect their stats. As in, BAM, I've just turned you into, say, Nyancat. You gain the Flight Special but lose all your combat stats.
Are you bleeding mad? You think it's pooping rainbows?? Those are seven different colors of blood streaks. I hope you never learn what one does when the red color runs low...
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby drachefly » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:46 am

effataigus wrote:
Azukar wrote:I wonder if a talented and creative Signamancer could *change* an enemy unit's Signamancy and thus affect their stats. As in, BAM, I've just turned you into, say, Nyancat. You gain the Flight Special but lose all your combat stats.
Are you bleeding mad? You think it's pooping rainbows?? Those are seven different colors of blood streaks. I hope you never learn what one does when the red color runs low...


Oooh. Then it turns into Rainbow Dash and becomes 20% cooler, right?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby wrecan » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:35 pm

bladestorm wrote:She has a long history of lying about her side, all through Book 0 and however long until Book 1.

She only lied about her side when she was protecting her side. When she was speaking to Caesar she had no reason to lie.

bladestorm wrote:She's damaged goods, so I don't trust anything that comes out of her mouth.

That's gong to make it very hard to have any sort of conversation on these boards. because when we start picking and choosing our sources, nobody is going to be on the same page.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby Morni » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:59 pm

I think predictamancy has 2 axes:
- Fated: which will happen
- Non-fated: which might happen

Wanda was the only unit with Fate in Goodminton.

Delphie Temple was using non-fated predictamancy when fighting in the tower.

Book0 Episode20 wrote:Most importantly to this plan, a Predictamancer could know whether or not a shot or blow she was about to initiate would be a hit. If it wouldn't, then she simply did not take the shot.


If all predictamancy was Fated, then Delphie predicting she's going to miss the next shot.. She would miss the next shot. But by deciding to not take the shot, she's changing the "future"

That update tell us that not all predictamancy is fated to happen, some are maybes. some will probably be:
- where will enemy unit be next turn
- which town location will enemy unit visit next turn

Other update tells us that some predictamancy happens:
- Jillian telling us about the ambush that had to happen
- Wanda getting an arkentool
- Jillian being the door for Wanda next step. (not too long ago)

Bottom line:
When a fated predictamancy happen, than there's the hard way or the easy way.
But theirs also other type of predictamancy
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby Cantripmancer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:05 pm

ftl wrote:So don't predict which cities will have an encounter! Predict which city hexes will have enemy units in them. Don't resist fate, work with it.

I was thinking about this earlier, and I wondered if maybe predictamancy might have a quantum-physics/double-slit-experiment-observation-type effect applied to it. As in, asking "what cities will have encounters" instead of "what city hexes will have enemy units in them" has the potential to affect the outcome of the prediction. Perhaps the act of predicting has an impact on reality that not predicting wouldn't have? (Disclaimer: I'm not anything even close to a quantum physicist.)

This leads me to also ponder the impetus for some of the bigger predictions we've seen. Do we know what prompted the prediction about Wanda attuning? Or a female warrior croaking the overlord of Haffaton? It seems like the predictions we actually witness are in response to a specific question or situation, but some of the big ones don't seem like they would be logically asked.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby Urf » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:52 pm

If Charm uses no juice, can Rulers cast it?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby 0beron » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:00 pm

Urf wrote:If Charm uses no juice, can Rulers cast it?

It's a metaphor, Olive isn't literally "casting a spell". But yes, Rulers can be (and have been) 'Charming'.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby drachefly » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:49 pm

Cantripmancer wrote:I was thinking about this earlier, and I wondered if maybe predictamancy might have a quantum-physics/double-slit-experiment-observation-type effect applied to it. As in, asking "what cities will have encounters" instead of "what city hexes will have enemy units in them" has the potential to affect the outcome of the prediction. Perhaps the act of predicting has an impact on reality that not predicting wouldn't have? (Disclaimer: I'm not anything even close to a quantum physicist.)


This is one of the few folk uses of quantum mechanics I've ever seen that doesn't butcher it - choice of measurement very much changes the possible outcomes. Thanks for the disclaimer anyway.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby bladestorm » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:21 pm

wrecan wrote:
bladestorm wrote:She has a long history of lying about her side, all through Book 0 and however long until Book 1.

She only lied about her side when she was protecting her side. When she was speaking to Caesar she had no reason to lie.

bladestorm wrote:She's damaged goods, so I don't trust anything that comes out of her mouth.

That's gong to make it very hard to have any sort of conversation on these boards. because when we start picking and choosing our sources, nobody is going to be on the same page.

We don't have to pick and choose our sources on everything. I'm just not taking Jillian's statement as canon until someone else from Faq verifies that it was the work of just predictamancy and foolamancy. Montecristo pointed out that they also used Brother Orwell, yet that was not mentioned in Jillian's statement to Caesar. there's a whole lot more going on in Faq than what Jillian is going to tell us, heir and CWL or not. So many pieces of the Faq puzzle do not fit right now. Some do fit, such as Wanda being a part of Faq at some point, Faq being sacked by Stanley, Banhammer croaking, Jack and Wanda being at Faq at the same time, Wanda and Marie being there at the same time, Faq's tendency towards gwiffons. There are plenty of questions to discuss about Faq.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby tgriff02 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:07 pm

bladestorm wrote:
wrecan wrote:
bladestorm wrote:She has a long history of lying about her side, all through Book 0 and however long until Book 1.

She only lied about her side when she was protecting her side. When she was speaking to Caesar she had no reason to lie.

bladestorm wrote:She's damaged goods, so I don't trust anything that comes out of her mouth.

That's gong to make it very hard to have any sort of conversation on these boards. because when we start picking and choosing our sources, nobody is going to be on the same page.

We don't have to pick and choose our sources on everything. I'm just not taking Jillian's statement as canon until someone else from Faq verifies that it was the work of just predictamancy and foolamancy. Montecristo pointed out that they also used Brother Orwell, yet that was not mentioned in Jillian's statement to Caesar. there's a whole lot more going on in Faq than what Jillian is going to tell us, heir and CWL or not. So many pieces of the Faq puzzle do not fit right now. Some do fit, such as Wanda being a part of Faq at some point, Faq being sacked by Stanley, Banhammer croaking, Jack and Wanda being at Faq at the same time, Wanda and Marie being there at the same time, Faq's tendency towards gwiffons. There are plenty of questions to discuss about Faq.


I believe that Wanda has refered to the strategy as well. I don't have those references, and I'm not going to go looking for them at work, but if I remember where I think i saw it, I will check when I get home. So, what parts of Faq DON'T fit, exactly?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby ftl » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:13 pm

By the way, the only thing we've seen that's Fated so far is, basically, Wanda's Life. Predictamancers may be significantly easier to use when they're not around Wanda.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby thatdan23 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:14 pm

I just came in here to say that I can't believe it took me this long to realize that Three-Edged was a reference to Babylon 5....
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby ftl » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:44 pm

ftl wrote:By the way, the only thing we've seen that's Fated so far is, basically, Wanda's Life. Predictamancers may be significantly easier to use when they're not around Wanda.


Actually, that gives me a second guess as to how predictamancers might work. There might be two types of predictions:

1) Deliberate predictamancy - where the Predictamancer chooses what questions to answer. Such as Marie asking which cities will need to be veiled, or delphie predicting where enemies will be so that you can target shots there. The better the predictamancer is, the better they can answer such questions and the more difficult the questions can be.
2) Fate - stuff which is Fated predictamancers will sometimes just spontaneously see, whether they want to or not. Like, Marie saw stuff about Wanda when she encountered her in the MK with Jack, that probably wasn't deliberate.

That would explain the dichotomy between some of the useful ways they've been used, versus why they sometimes end up making these apocalyptic predictions that help nobody.
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