Book 2 - Klog 5

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby CelebrenIthil » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:24 pm

Oberon wrote:
Hatu wrote:Interesting stuff. But I thought incinerated units couldn't be decrypted. That was the explanation for Bogroll, no?
Bogroll was put to the torch by RCC units. This deliberate burning could be mechanically different than a unit simply being burned to death. As born out by the other burned RCC units plus Charlie's archons being able to be decrypted even though they were killed by the heat and fires of the volcano erupting.


Might not even need a difference in intent more than "when" the damage occurs. The durability of units (and objects and other things) might follow this "ladder" of states:

(In which damage makes you go down in the ladder)

Living unit

V
Incapacitated unit

V
Corpse

V
Complete Destruction/Depopping (corpses that aren't interacted with will automatically unpop after a while)


So the same source of damage (here, fire) might be used on living units to transition them from "living" state to "corpse" (croaking). Then, another instance of fire can be used afterwards on a corpse to completely destroy it. Hence the inferno cause by blowing up Gobwin Knob's volcano caused the RCC troops to transition from living to corpses but not destroy them completely so they could be decrypted, whereas torching Bogroll's corpse caused it's permanent destruction.

We also saw that another source, fall damage, may cause incapacitation or death (skipping past the incapacitation state) but not straight-out corpse obliteration/depopping. We can posit fire behaves similarly (and maybe throwing corpses down tower could also destroy them from additional fall damage (albeit this method is surely unreliable)).

Uncroaked and Decrypted units are units that were brought down to the "corpse" state and then magically regained various elements from the "living" state, but stay at the same step of the"durability ladder" as corpses. Therefore, once their entire pool of hp/durability for that state is exhausted, the next step is complete destruction (decay and dusting).

Now, maybe there is a certain chance that, say, fire damage can bring a living unit all the way down to complete destruction in the same turn/instance, but so far Parson didn't mention such losses in decryptable units numbers.
My Dwagons!
Red: Kelvin Yellow: Newton Green: Langmuir Blue: Ampere Purple: Decibel Pink: Pascal
build6 wrote:It's true, we're all gay for Tramennis, even if we're straight :-)
User avatar
CelebrenIthil
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:40 pm
Location: Under my hair

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby joosy » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:39 pm

Dammit. He really really needs Sizemore but will have to break his promise to Sizemore AND risk a war with the Magic Kingdom in order to get him there. I just hope that Rob isn't going to cut off the portal when Sizemore is 1/2 way through. I keep getting the feeling that somebody close to Parson has to die in order to push him over the edge. Of course the fire could be enough of a motivater for now anyway.

Also, I still wonder what Charlie's plan is. RIght now Parson appears to be boned no matter what he does unless he steps right back through the portal. I don't see how Charlie could have known that Sylvia would try to start an inferno unless he perhaps he has some predictamancy on that? Hmmm.. Its possible that Charlie had some other gimmick in mind like bringing in captured archons via Haggar. (assuming that being captured allows you to now move on their turn even though yours is over or hasn't started yet)
joosy
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:30 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby multilis » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:34 pm

joosy wrote: Its possible that Charlie had some other gimmick in mind like bringing in captured archons via Haggar. (assuming that being captured allows you to now move on their turn even though yours is over or hasn't started yet)

Or Charlie thinks he can wait till beginning of next day, when he has a turn before Parson.
Last edited by multilis on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
multilis
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby cheeseaholic » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:35 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:So the same source of damage (here, fire) might be used on living units to transition them from "living" state to "corpse" (croaking). Then, another instance of fire can be used afterwards on a corpse to completely destroy it. Hence the inferno cause by blowing up Gobwin Knob's volcano caused the RCC troops to transition from living to corpses but not destroy them completely so they could be decrypted, whereas torching Bogroll's corpse caused it's permanent destruction.


Ansom died before the volcano blew.
cheeseaholic
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby CelebrenIthil » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:53 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:
CelebrenIthil wrote:So the same source of damage (here, fire) might be used on living units to transition them from "living" state to "corpse" (croaking). Then, another instance of fire can be used afterwards on a corpse to completely destroy it. Hence the inferno cause by blowing up Gobwin Knob's volcano caused the RCC troops to transition from living to corpses but not destroy them completely so they could be decrypted, whereas torching Bogroll's corpse caused it's permanent destruction.


Ansom died before the volcano blew.


True.
Like I said, maybe, like fall damage, uncontrolled fire has a random chance for its effects to occur. Units pointedly burning a corpse with a controlled fire will make sure the destruction is thorough but a wild inferno might very well spare the corpse of an important protagonist for plot-related reaso- I mean, by random happenstance.

:mrgreen:
My Dwagons!
Red: Kelvin Yellow: Newton Green: Langmuir Blue: Ampere Purple: Decibel Pink: Pascal
build6 wrote:It's true, we're all gay for Tramennis, even if we're straight :-)
User avatar
CelebrenIthil
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:40 pm
Location: Under my hair

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby Swodaems » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:19 pm

I find it kind of odd that all damage from uncontrolled fires is regarded as dirtamancy trap damage, regardless of ignition source. For some reason, I expect shockamancy damage to factor into the mix somewhere, more so if a shockamancer was responsable for igniting the fire.


Oh well, we have new rules: time to find ways to exploit them

Controlled fire don't damage units near them, What about in them?


The fact that the captured prisoners got move immediately when they are captured is interesting. This is something an unofficial alliance of sides could take advantage of. Instead of using the formal alliance mechanic, one side could take the other side 'prisoner', order them to move somewhere they couldn't ordinarily go, and then 'release' them. (Remember how Charlie's Archons where stuck in the Airspace after they reallied with Ansom in Book 1? Taking them prisoner would have allowed them to fly to the ground, where they may have had more impact on the battle.)

If units get their full move restored when captured, then prisoner taking could be abused to allow two sides working together to get 2 full turns' worth of move out of their units every day. 3 sides working together could get 3 full turns' worth of move. 4 sides would get 4 and so on. As big as the RCC is in the number of sides it has, they could easily outmanuver Gobwin Knob.

Of course, It might be that the case that those soldiers only received move because they had not moved yet that day. (We know the GK was taking its move before the RCC2 and it might be safe to assuming that Unaroyal was currently a member when the city was taken.) This explanation opens up an entirely different can of worms because it means that units captured later in the day cannot move under their own power. If a late moving side wants to move their newly captured prisoners around, they have to provide transport of some kind (Like Jillian did when she captured units with her megalo in Book 2.) or wait until their next turn, when the prisoners can be forced to march.


An interesting thing about uncontrolled fire being defined as something created with multiple points of ignition is that there is no definition of what makes several small controlled fires in a hex become a single uncontrolled one. To my eyes, that reads as "a fire in one part of a hex may be manipulated by starting a fire in another part of the hex". Potentially that means that you could send a single sneaky unit into an enemy hex with a campfire, have him start another fire off in a corner, and watch as the enemy's original campfire starts spreading.
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:37 pm

Based off this Klog, Sylvia is dead. Unless she actually has "fire-resistant" as a trait.

The inferno in Motoroyal started in the garrison zone, like the growing fire in Jetstone; after GK formally captured the city with the riderless red dwagon, the fire spread beyond the garrison to the entire city. If the Jetstone fire goes inferno, even if all JS units get killed before the GK units and the city accordingly falls, the whole city will still burn. Sylvia and any GK survivors won't be able to leave the city because they're still off-turn.
WaterMonkey314
 
Posts: 782
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:40 pm

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby joosy » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:48 pm

multilis wrote:
joosy wrote: Its possible that Charlie had some other gimmick in mind like bringing in captured archons via Haggar. (assuming that being captured allows you to now move on their turn even though yours is over or hasn't started yet)

Or Charlie thinks he can wait till beginning of next day, when he has a turn before Parson.


Well yes, BUT, the point of getting Faux Slately to the throne was to turn off the portal BEFORE GK has control of the garrison. Once GK has control of the garrison, the portal would close anyway. Ergo, part of the plan is to cut Parson off without a retreat before he can take the city. RIght now the inferno is enough of a reason to do that but that wasn't part of Charlie's original plan (barring Predictamancy).
joosy
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:30 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby joosy » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:04 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:Based off this Klog, Sylvia is dead. Unless she actually has "fire-resistant" as a trait.

The inferno in Motoroyal started in the garrison zone, like the growing fire in Jetstone; after GK formally captured the city with the riderless red dwagon, the fire spread beyond the garrison to the entire city. If the Jetstone fire goes inferno, even if all JS units get killed before the GK units and the city accordingly falls, the whole city will still burn. Sylvia and any GK survivors won't be able to leave the city because they're still off-turn.


Yeah.. he needs Sizemore.
joosy
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:30 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby No one in particular » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:57 pm

joosy wrote:Dammit. He really really needs Sizemore but will have to break his promise to Sizemore AND risk a war with the Magic Kingdom in order to get him there. I just hope that Rob isn't going to cut off the portal when Sizemore is 1/2 way through. I keep getting the feeling that somebody close to Parson has to die in order to push him over the edge. Of course the fire could be enough of a motivater for now anyway.

I don't know... I mean, Parson's already lost Misty & Bogroll. Constantly whittling down the people he can talk to just seems... monotonous. There needs to be more variety to the motivation than "This is for A! This is for B! This is for [...] is for X! This is for Y!" revenge.

Now, having him lose Sizemore or Jack or someone to TURNING, rather than croaking, that might happen.

Sizemore just unable to handle the horrors of war and staying in the MK or Jack joining FAQ again... especially if Parson thinks Turnamancy or Thinkamancy was involved. That'll get him moving.
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
---
Got questions? Ask Count Downer!
User avatar
No one in particular
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
Location: Nowhere Atoll

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby konmanrocks » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:22 pm

speaking of ansom, isnt he in the wrong colors on the top of the page?
konmanrocks
YOTD Supporter!
YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 2:54 am
Location: Washington State

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby bladestorm » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:26 pm

No one in particular wrote:
joosy wrote:Dammit. He really really needs Sizemore but will have to break his promise to Sizemore AND risk a war with the Magic Kingdom in order to get him there. I just hope that Rob isn't going to cut off the portal when Sizemore is 1/2 way through. I keep getting the feeling that somebody close to Parson has to die in order to push him over the edge. Of course the fire could be enough of a motivater for now anyway.

I don't know... I mean, Parson's already lost Misty & Bogroll. Constantly whittling down the people he can talk to just seems... monotonous. There needs to be more variety to the motivation than "This is for A! This is for B! This is for [...] is for X! This is for Y!" revenge.

Now, having him lose Sizemore or Jack or someone to TURNING, rather than croaking, that might happen.

Sizemore just unable to handle the horrors of war and staying in the MK or Jack joining FAQ again... especially if Parson thinks Turnamancy or Thinkamancy was involved. That'll get him moving.

Or if Parson is somehow turned, and ends up going against his former allies.
bladestorm
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 10:11 pm

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby NYbear » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:13 pm

konmanrocks wrote:speaking of ansom, isnt he in the wrong colors on the top of the page?


Not at all. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-10-31.jpg

Panel 7. When he was first decrypted, he was still in the white suit, red cape (straps in front changed from blue with radishes to black with skulls - but you don't see him from the front in the current comic page) He remained in the costume throughout most of GK's conquest, post wanda attunement. His costume doesn't change to the crimson and black until the Battle of Expository bridge, which clearly happens after the taking of Motorola. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-11-04.jpg
NYbear
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:50 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby Kaed » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:04 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Kaed wrote:Does that mean there are fire traps? And that dirtamancers can throw fireballs?

I doubt they can throw fireballs, but we already knew there were fire traps.


Forgot about that..
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 810
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby Lamech » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:07 pm

Guys, PRISONERS GET THEIR MOVE BACK! Think of the applications. By seeding units from two sides you can super accelerate to anywhere. Side A captures B's units and lets them escape to side B, and visa versa. But wait it gets better! Prisoners can still move after returning to their side. (Recall Jillian fleeing from pedobears city, she was even going to get move back on FAQs turn.)

Even better assuming that units keep their move when they turn? You don't even need to seed units in front of you! You and your "ally" can use the same process to make move, filling up the "off-turn"* sides move. All your units can turn to them to also get move. Then you all move out and repeat the process!

*It might only be on turn prisoners who get renewed move.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:17 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:Based off this Klog, Sylvia is dead. Unless she actually has "fire-resistant" as a trait.

The inferno in Motoroyal started in the garrison zone, like the growing fire in Jetstone; after GK formally captured the city with the riderless red dwagon, the fire spread beyond the garrison to the entire city. If the Jetstone fire goes inferno, even if all JS units get killed before the GK units and the city accordingly falls, the whole city will still burn. Sylvia and any GK survivors won't be able to leave the city because they're still off-turn.


I don't think typical (non-volcano) infernos would affect the Airspace. Maybe she's counting on mounting a dwagon, which will be able to take off as soon as GK takes the Garrison.
User avatar
Chit Rule Railroad
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby wrecan » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:42 pm

Lamech wrote:Guys, PRISONERS GET THEIR MOVE BACK! Think of the applications. By seeding units from two sides you can super accelerate to anywhere. Side A captures B's units and lets them escape to side B, and visa versa. But wait it gets better! Prisoners can still move after returning to their side. (Recall Jillian fleeing from pedobears city, she was even going to get move back on FAQs turn.)

Nice. We could call it the Underground Railroad!
wrecan
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:06 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
WaterMonkey314 wrote:Based off this Klog, Sylvia is dead. Unless she actually has "fire-resistant" as a trait.

The inferno in Motoroyal started in the garrison zone, like the growing fire in Jetstone; after GK formally captured the city with the riderless red dwagon, the fire spread beyond the garrison to the entire city. If the Jetstone fire goes inferno, even if all JS units get killed before the GK units and the city accordingly falls, the whole city will still burn. Sylvia and any GK survivors won't be able to leave the city because they're still off-turn.

I don't think typical (non-volcano) infernos would affect the Airspace. Maybe she's counting on mounting a dwagon, which will be able to take off as soon as GK takes the Garrison.

Whoa, I just realized - while Sylvia (and Jack) could survive this way, Parson the Heavy can't. If he gets cut off from the MK in an inferno off-turn without the company of a dirtamancer, founding a new Side so that Sizemore can come in (or so someone can toss a Weirdomancy scroll through the Portal so Jack can give Parson fire resistance or flight or something) might be the only plausible way for his Fate to be fulfilled.

Maybe it's not so absurd that Charlie would be able to guess, even without Predictamancy, that Sylvia would light up the Garrison, if he had any intelligence on what she's like. Didn't Charlie flip-flop on letting Parson reach Spacerock only after Wanda's MK jaunt and Ossomer's turning left Sylvia as the top GK commander in the hex?

Edit: Removed claim that Jetstone troops were lining up for a counterattack because of Charlie.


On the other hand, a re-reading of Sylvia's conversation with Archer indicates that she did expect GK units to be able to survive in the Outer Walls zone. I guess she was betting that the fire would remain "Uncontrolled" rather than "Inferno" as it killed the last JS units in the Garrison, and that with uncontested control of the city, the GK units would then be able to collectively contain the Uncontrolled fire to the Garrison and/or put it out. I wonder if they could order the JS prisoners in the Outer Walls zone to help with the firefighting, for the sake of their own lives? That could be an interesting text update from the POV of Mary Sagittari.
User avatar
Chit Rule Railroad
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby coyotenose » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:31 pm

Heh, "Motoroyal". It took me all day to get that, and then I laughed out loud and confused people around me.
coyotenose
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Book 2 - Klog 5

Postby John Campbell » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:08 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Maybe it's not so absurd that Charlie would be able to guess, even without Predictamancy, that Sylvia would light up the Garrison, if he had any intelligence on what she's like. Didn't Charlie flip-flop on letting Parson reach Spacerock only after Wanda's MK jaunt and Ossomer's turning left Sylvia as the top GK commander in the hex?


Jojo's working for Charlie. Jojo knows Sylvia very well. Or knew, anyway. I'm not sure how much of her train of thought turning into a constant loop of "DIAF" is post-Decryption.
John Campbell
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:46 am
Location: The Republic of Vermont

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sweetidealism, tgillet1, Whispri and 10 guests