Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby Lamech » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:40 pm

SteveMB wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Olive can croak at least King Banhammer. Wanda can do a focused uncroaking and keep mending the body to keep up a charade that the king is still alive.


I doubt that's possible -- until Wanda attuned and gained the ability to Decrypt, I don't think we've seen an uncroaked that could possibly be passed off as a living unit for one second.

Wanda or Olive might be able to pass off a uncroaked as a living unit via foolamancy or signamancy. However, it would be immediately detected by either Jack or the signomancer, and Jill would know immediately when she becomes the ruler. Nor could Unbanhammer give orders without what I suspect is heavy duty thinkamancy.

Also early on in book one we see an undecayed uncroaked. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F003.jpg It is obviously uncroaked. This was performed by a level 8 master croakamancer.

No one in particular wrote:Just because Olive can write a check, it doesn't mean she knows how much money's in the bank.
She's just offering food! Their are massive gardens just outside the city and probably stockpiles inside. The side is strapped for cash. Not strapped for flower power.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby No one in particular » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:51 pm

Faq could still eat them out of house and home.

Especially if they send Rusty out to burn the fields (which is totally permissible under the chill-axe, thank you IPTSF 15)

*shrugs* Alternately, the rest of Faq is abroad, wiping out Haffaton cities since their Hippiemancer & Croakamancer are stuck in Efbaum making sure Judy is safe.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby bladestorm » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:04 pm

SteveMB wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Olive can croak at least King Banhammer. Wanda can do a focused uncroaking and keep mending the body to keep up a charade that the king is still alive.


I doubt that's possible -- until Wanda attuned and gained the ability to Decrypt, I don't think we've seen an uncroaked that could possibly be passed off as a living unit for one second.

Croakmancy alone wouldn't do it, but she is now close (6 - 12 feet) to a master class foolamancer who knows the king's nuances.

There are so many contradicting bits of information with the various retelling of Faq's history. Wanda and Jack are both in Faq at the same time, and watch Jillian returning home. Stanley sacks all of Faq's cities and captures Jack and Wanda, but not Marie or any of the other casters mentioned in Book 0. Wanda bolts when she sees that Stanley isn't a pushover, and a decrypted King Banhammer starts attacking his own people. Jillian was heir designate, but she just woke up as a barbarian one day and knew her entire side had ended. Wanda and Marie were also at Faq at the same time, which was when Wanda found out about attuning to an Arkentool. Things just do not add up.

I'm thinking Jillian lied to Ansom, using Wanda's story of turning Barbarian. Much better bstory than "I was drugged up and had no idea what was going on while Stanley walked in and took over my kingdom. I've been too ashamed to go back and too stupid to know what to do, since I have basically wrecked my entire life by being bullheaded and violent."


Hmmm.... unless Olive kills Banhammer while Jillian is under the effects of the bud, and Wanda contacts Stanley to attack Haffaton. Marie heads off to the magick kingdom, Jack gets captured on one of the other cities, Stanley lays waste to Haffaton, and Wanda tells him that he just took over Faq.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby HandofShadows » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:08 pm

Berserkas wrote:On the archway, right above Olive's head...

Skull wtih Hero buds. That's Wanda's symbol that she uses on the livery of the Decrypted....

I bet this has no actual meaning or implications, but it's an odd oversight to make anyway. :P After all, Efbaum is supposedly kept exactly the way Haffaton conquered it... why add that symbol to the tower?


What if that symbol wasn't added at a later date? And I suspect it is not an oversite. Good eye on catching that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:19 pm

bladestorm wrote:
SteveMB wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Olive can croak at least King Banhammer. Wanda can do a focused uncroaking and keep mending the body to keep up a charade that the king is still alive.


I doubt that's possible -- until Wanda attuned and gained the ability to Decrypt, I don't think we've seen an uncroaked that could possibly be passed off as a living unit for one second.

Croakmancy alone wouldn't do it, but she is now close (6 - 12 feet) to a master class foolamancer who knows the king's nuances.

There are so many contradicting bits of information with the various retelling of Faq's history. Wanda and Jack are both in Faq at the same time, and watch Jillian returning home. Stanley sacks all of Faq's cities and captures Jack and Wanda, but not Marie or any of the other casters mentioned in Book 0. Wanda bolts when she sees that Stanley isn't a pushover, and a decrypted King Banhammer starts attacking his own people. Jillian was heir designate, but she just woke up as a barbarian one day and knew her entire side had ended. Wanda and Marie were also at Faq at the same time, which was when Wanda found out about attuning to an Arkentool. Things just do not add up.

I'm thinking Jillian lied to Ansom, using Wanda's story of turning Barbarian. Much better bstory than "I was drugged up and had no idea what was going on while Stanley walked in and took over my kingdom. I've been too ashamed to go back and too stupid to know what to do, since I have basically wrecked my entire life by being bullheaded and violent."


Hmmm.... unless Olive kills Banhammer while Jillian is under the effects of the bud, and Wanda contacts Stanley to attack Haffaton. Marie heads off to the magick kingdom, Jack gets captured on one of the other cities, Stanley lays waste to Haffaton, and Wanda tells him that he just took over Faq.


I think you are getting confused because you are jumping to the wrong conclusions based off an unfinished story...

This is NOT the story of how Faq fell. Most likely this entire situation we are witnessing is gonna turn out in Faq's favor. Both Judy and Olive will croak, Haffaton will fall and then Faq and Banhammer will reclaim their three cities. After that things proceed as we knew them; Jillian, Jack, Wanda, and Marie will all be living in Faq under Banhammer's rule; Jillian will once again become Faq's lead mercenary and wanda will learn of her fate to wield an arken tool. Then MANY turns later, Wanda will betray Faq by calling Stanely in her attempt to get the Arken Hammer; Marie will high tail it to the magic kingdom (the rest of the casters will either croak during the fight or leave for the magic kingdom), Jack gets captured because Wanda arranged for him to be in a different city during the attack, wanda herself gives up willingly to stay close to the arkentools, and Jillian will go barbarian because she was out in the field as she is faq's leader for mercenary work

Also at this point i don't think Stanely or even gobwinknob itself exists (from what we know of erfworld geography, Gobwinknob borders Faq to the east and during this prequel story Haffaton surrounds faq on every border except for the southern border which is covered by Transyvito)... Most likely their side will come to existence after haffaton falls as a spin off of another nearby royal side that moves in to capitalize on Haffaton's many vacant cities.





No one in particular wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Olive is the chief caster and heir to haffaton, and from what we've seen her authority seems to be on a similar level as that of a chief warlord. She issues orders can even spend smuckers from the treasury. Olive even mentions their poor smucker situation when she says she was hireing charlie to look for Faq(judy did not seem to be involved); so it would seem she is very much aware of their smucker situation. Judy herself seems to do very little leaving day to day matters up to Olive.

Just because Olive can write a check, it doesn't mean she knows how much money's in the bank.

There are certain senses that are exclusive and unique to Rulers.
  1. Stanley and Slately know precisely where a unit is, what it's health & condition is, etc.
  2. Prince Ansom, when he was leading the siege to Gobwin Knob, lost a bunch of siege and didn't realize it until someone told him.
  3. Same thing with Tommy, on the road to Goodfinger.
  4. Wanda was Chief Caster for Goodminton, and it wasn't until she was Overlady / barbarian that she could sense the upkeep of her uncroaked.

It seems that the difference between Chiefs and Rulers is that while both can order something to happen ("go there" or "I promote you to field"), a Ruler KNOWS that it's working. Extending this to cover the cost of things & the available funds in a treasury, I would guess that a Ruler has to make it known to his Chief when things are getting low.


Regardless, Olive manages all of Haffaton's day to day needs while Judy mostly just hangs around the capitol acting like a loon. You should not assume that she does not keep herself up to date on Haffaton's finicail situation and is very much aware of how much everything costs, whether or not she has instant knowledge of how much is in the bank. She not gonna do something as s tupid as let the side get bled dry after she went through so much effort to cut down their costs so that they can maintain their massive side

MonteCristo wrote:Keywords: in the field
Faq's casters are not in the field, they are in Haffaton's capitol. Units inside of a city when a side falls do not disband, they instead freeze and can not move unless the city is attacked. Furthermore we know that from the battle for jetstone that when the garrison is captured (the city switches ownership) all enemy units are automatically captured... putting the info together, I think its reasonable to assume that when a side falls, all units inside of an enemy city become captives of that city. Disbanding doesn't seem to be a possibility since again, units in cities freeze instead of disbanding.

I guess it comes down to the definition of "the field"...

I was operating under the assumption that it simply meant "anywhere that's not a city of your (former) side"

This might explain how the Magic Kingdom saves caster, though... if it's technically a city, and foreign casters are in it when their side falls, then they would suddenly find themselves wearing bracelets but ALIVE. Quick talk to whoever's the unmentioned Ruler of the place, the cuffs come off, and "welcome to your new home"


What's the difference between a city that has gone neutral and a city belonging to a different side? in both cases the city does not belong to the side the units inde were part of. So i don't see why another city would be considered part of the "field" when a neutral city is not.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby RichMan » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:55 pm

Assisting Wanda in locating Judy's slippers would be very permissible under the chillaxe.
And presenting the ruler with a gift would be doubly happy-good under a peace agreement :D

Olive does seem to have anger issues which might come up under such a scenario. Although she would then be ruler.

It appears Olive is currently the chief warlord and heir. Which in future-simul time so is prince Tamaris(?sp).
Can a ruler be chief warlord at the same time? see page 2-95 where "I will appoint a new chief warlord tomorrow after I have assumed the throne."
Would assuming the throne mean she loses chief warlord status?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby No one in particular » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:27 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Regardless, Olive manages all of Haffaton's day to day needs while Judy mostly just hangs around the capitol acting like a loon. You should not assume that she does not keep herself up to date on Haffaton's finicail situation and is very much aware of how much everything costs, whether or not she has instant knowledge of how much is in the bank. She not gonna do something as s tupid as let the side get bled dry after she went through so much effort to cut down their costs so that they can maintain their massive side

If she's caught up in maintaining the facade of politesse and etiquette that are the only weapons against Faq? It could be the one fatal mistake she makes.

Alternately, it could come down to a matter of juice. Depending on how much it costs to maintain the gardens vs how much it costs to maintain the peace...

Augh. Nevermind. There's just too much I don't know about how the mechanics of the system, and what Olive's character is really like to make a definitive argument yet. I'll find out what the plan as the next chapters come out.

MonteCristo wrote:What's the difference between a city that has gone neutral and a city belonging to a different side? in both cases the city does not belong to the side the units inde were part of. So i don't see why another city would be considered part of the "field" when a neutral city is not.

Because a City that's gone neutral USED to be a part of their side. It's not like they wandered into it and set up camp. They were in a home base, and their support got cut out from under them, which turned them neutral.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby tgriff02 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:01 pm

Lamech wrote:She's just offering food! Their are massive gardens just outside the city and probably stockpiles inside. The side is strapped for cash. Not strapped for flower power.


Indeed, I'll be there are just ORCHARDS full of apple trees ;)

In all seriousness though, based on the description Parson gave as his duties as head of the city og GK, the food grows on the farms, then depops at the appropriate time, to repop slightly processed at a waypoint facility (the pigs depoped, and pork related product popped in at the kitchens/warehouses), then the food can either be prepared manually by those in the city, or it depops and "rations" pop for units in the field, or whatever the appropriate "cooking" process is.

So, I'm not sure if Olive CAN "just give" food. after all this is Erf where there are mechanics for upkeep and such, She could give them permission to forage and use her flower power to ensure there are enough edible mushrooms and random small furries, I guess. But I don't know.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby tgriff02 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:06 pm

HandofShadows wrote:
Berserkas wrote:On the archway, right above Olive's head...

Skull wtih Hero buds. That's Wanda's symbol that she uses on the livery of the Decrypted....

I bet this has no actual meaning or implications, but it's an odd oversight to make anyway. :P After all, Efbaum is supposedly kept exactly the way Haffaton conquered it... why add that symbol to the tower?


What if that symbol wasn't added at a later date? And I suspect it is not an oversite. Good eye on catching that.


I agree, it probably wasn't a mistake, and good catch, I missed itt otally until it was pointed out. Natural Signamancyof some sort maybe? Haffaton seems to have the total aura of being the biggest oak tree in the forest that looks impregnable, but is totally rotten inside and constantly on the verge of collapse
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby tgriff02 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:18 pm

Just had an utterly random thought, way back in the day, on the old Yahoo Groups/Chat pages, the mods and creator/owners of the chatrooms/groups would have a little hammer symblo beside their sn, so people always knew who, or if, the discussion was currently supervised by. The higher ranking mods would have a yellow/"gold" hammer while others just had a sliver. The yellow hammers gave the tool to not just kick someone out of the chatroom, but to ban them for 1 hour, 24 hours, or something like a week. Users commonly refered to the weilders of the yellow hammers as "Ban-Hammers." I wonder if that thought crossed Rob's mind when he named our conflict hating ruler/keeper of the peace/promoter of civil discussion..... lol


*edited for gross gramatical/punctuation errors*
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:35 am

Whatever happens, we know that Banhammer and FAQ lives, and Haffaton dies. Olive might live on as a sycophant in the FAQ court, but that will end when FAQ falls to GK.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby C9H20 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:19 pm

Well as they say, the plot thickens.

One thing worth noting I feel is that if we go by the info we know; which is that sides are more likely to spawn casters if they have few of them; and that FAQ has a metric shitton of casters. Well, the most probable conclusion I can draw is that FAQ is an ancient side, enduring in its current form for thousands upon thousands of turns. That way it will accumulate such a great number of casters even when facing progressively reduced odds of popping them. And given how unique Banhammer's approach to ruling is, I am willing to bet he was the ruler for that entire time.

One thing that certainly comes with age is wisdom, especially to a thinker such as Banhammer, hence I feel he is an extraordinarily clever guy. This is not necessarily a good thing for his Side, but keep an eye out for him, he may be full of surprises.

Who knows perhaps Banhammer was a warrior prince/king waaaaaaaay back in the day and learned the futility and the wrongness of it. One thing is certain, the next few updates will be highly interesting.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby splintermute » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:46 pm

C9H20 wrote:Well as they say, the plot thickens.

One thing worth noting I feel is that if we go by the info we know; which is that sides are more likely to spawn casters if they have few of them; and that FAQ has a metric shitton of casters. Well, the most probable conclusion I can draw is that FAQ is an ancient side, enduring in its current form for thousands upon thousands of turns. That way it will accumulate such a great number of casters even when facing progressively reduced odds of popping them. And given how unique Banhammer's approach to ruling is, I am willing to bet he was the ruler for that entire time.

One thing that certainly comes with age is wisdom, especially to a thinker such as Banhammer, hence I feel he is an extraordinarily clever guy. This is not necessarily a good thing for his Side, but keep an eye out for him, he may be full of surprises.

Who knows perhaps Banhammer was a warrior prince/king waaaaaaaay back in the day and learned the futility and the wrongness of it. One thing is certain, the next few updates will be highly interesting.


It doesn't have to imply age - if you have the schmuckers you can hire/convert shittons of casters from the MK. It could also imply military prowess (which is how they'll acquire Wanda), but that seems unlikely.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby onlyme » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:47 pm

C9H20 wrote:Who knows perhaps Banhammer was a warrior prince/king waaaaaaaay back in the day and learned the futility and the wrongness of it. One thing is certain, the next few updates will be highly interesting.


Indeed, though I fear the only chance that this will happen is if Jillian is drugged enough to not realize it, or one would get future Jillian had learned anything out of it. My bet is that the court of FAQ will try some inherent logical things till Jillian has enough of a worse and worse looking situation leading to to her less and less suiteable outcomes till she finds a way to break some skulls or cut off some heads. And ridiculing the court for either thinking they had any part in it or that there might have been a better solution.

I only hope it will get there before the presence of FAQ in Haffaton is prolonged long enough that we all automatically take Jillians side in that for finally getting some advance of the story.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby (name here) » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:53 pm

I can't help but think that Banhammer knows what he's doing here. Haffaton is trying to defeat the side with the most casters via employing magic. The Chillaxe is symmetrical, which usually gives Haffaton an advantage because they're familiar with its effects and most commanders don't know much about their own side's magic, much less anyone else's. That is not a problem FAQ has.

Of course, what he's doing might be arranging matters so he has an indefinite time to negotiate a peaceful solution because Haffaton is stuck paying FAQ's upkeep while the negotiations last, they're unlikely to want to start a fight with a powerful and caster-heavy force inside their capital, and even if they did Jack could make them waste the advantage of surprise. I just doubt he's going to wind up getting suckered all that easily.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:11 pm

All in all, it would seem perfectly par for the course (with regards to the characters) if Faq came in, and negotiated/debated Olive with philosophy and somehow subtly manipulated and non-agressed their wayinto a genuine military victory; and Jillian decided to be just pig-headed enough to refuse to even concider that her father's course of actions "worked."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby Housellama » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:19 pm

Most everything that we have heard about Banhammer has come from Jillian. She is not exactly a reliable source. For one thing, she hates her father. For another, she's not exactly the most intelligent person. Oh, she's good at battles and tactics, but she doesn't understand politics and more importantly, strategy. She's good at the little picture, but not the big one. Banhammer's run that kingdom for a very long time and has had a lot of time to think. His ego is a weak point, but I doubt that he's the fool Jillian has painted him to be.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby Smurfton » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:22 pm

tgriff02 wrote:Just had an utterly random thought, way back in the day, on the old Yahoo Groups/Chat pages, the mods and creator/owners of the chatrooms/groups would have a little hammer symblo beside their sn, so people always knew who, or if, the discussion was currently supervised by. The higher ranking mods would have a yellow/"gold" hammer while others just had a sliver. The yellow hammers gave the tool to not just kick someone out of the chatroom, but to ban them for 1 hour, 24 hours, or something like a week. Users commonly refered to the weilders of the yellow hammers as "Ban-Hammers." I wonder if that thought crossed Rob's mind when he named our conflict hating ruler/keeper of the peace/promoter of civil discussion..... lol


*edited for gross gramatical/punctuation errors*


As it turns out, I do not know of any forum or server where mods who ban people are not considered to be swinging the banhammer. I'm sure that is indeed where the name came from, just as FAQ more than likely came from Frequently Asked Questions, Transylvito from Transylvania... It's already been stated by Parson at the beginning of Book one that all names in Erfworld are puns on things from his universe. If you can work out what Haffaton is a pun on, though, do tell.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby Nakedkali » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:33 pm

Haffaton is not to hard for me to guess at, "it fell like half a ton of bricks".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 058

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:37 pm

tgriff02 wrote:All in all, it would seem perfectly par for the course (with regards to the characters) if Faq came in, and negotiated/debated Olive with philosophy and somehow subtly manipulated and non-agressed their wayinto a genuine military victory; and Jillian decided to be just pig-headed enough to refuse to even concider that her father's course of actions "worked."


Ya i'm not expecting things to go down this way... The most telling thing I feel is that Haffaton will fall and the fated prediction that Jillian will be the one to croak Haffaton's ruler; This would mean either Judy, Olive or both. And since this is both Wanda's and Jillian's story, i also think that Wanda will somehow be involved finally becoming the poison pill that her father asked her to become.

Heck part of the problem with Banhammer is that from what we know of him is that approaching someone with peace only to stab them does not seem like it would be in his philosophy. Olive however is the one in this room who will pretend to be a friend, but will be plotting your demise; If she gives you a hug its only so she can find a nice place to stick a knife. Olive is inviting them most likely with the full intention of finding a good chance to croak them all; Banhammer the peacemaker, not so much. Heck Others have brought up Marie, but one thing to take into consideration is that predictamancy is not that easy to use tactically; things will work out the way they were meant to, the most you can ever do is try to soften the blow for yourself. If she's going into the meeting with no objections, it may not be because banhammer used her predictions to put together a plan, but because she knows that things will work out the way they should no matter what banhammer does.


Not to mention that when it comes to ignoring the value of another's methods, so far Banhammer and the court of Faq would be more guilty than Jillian. Banhammer may have had a long rule and managed to keep his bubble kingdom running, but he and the court don't really seem to acknowledge Jillian's contributions. She and her mercenary forces are what keeps Faq prosperous and she spends many turns away risking her life; Each commander may be vital to the side, the side would fall without Jack, Marie and Orwell, but Jillian seems to be the hardest working of them all. But the court seems to shun her work because they oppose war; They never really acknowledge that the blood she shed's is what helps maintain their upkeep. Jack is one of the lone members of the court that shows her appreciation... I thought Banhammer might share some of that appreciation, but honestly it seems like he only cares about Jillian because she is his only heir and he lacks the resources to make another. Heck as Jack points out, Jillian has valuable intelligence on the enemy but Banhammer will not even listen to her when she is trying to save them all


More likely i feel like banhammer is indeed walking right into a trap unprepared, but he and faq will be saved because Jillian and wanda will go off his script and fulfill their destined paths.
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