Book 2 – Page 99

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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:32 pm

The corpses depopping at Dawn problem is one of those flogged dead horses. We've tried to run at that before.

The only conclusion I've been able to come to is that Wanda did not know all the details about depopping when she Popped. She was under the false belief that the corpse had to be moved, when all she really needed to do was "claim" it, which she had learned by the time of tBfGK. It isn't entirely clear if Casters have 100% knowledge of the relevant rule-physics at Pop. They may know the Rules for their specific Spells, but something like "when a corpse depops" may need to be learned the same way Warlords learn how Caster spells work. It is important information, but it is not an inherent part of her spells, so she may simply not know. Yeah, weak, I know.

There is one other possibility. It's a "convenient" solution that works around the problem and dodges the whole business.

The RCC corpses died on their turn, but unlike GK, they all still were suffering Turn Orders due to other conflicts. (Yeah, weak.) If that is so, then since it is implied that GK is before all RCC Sides somwhere, then GK would have a window of time to Decrypt their corpses before their former Sides' Turns start.

The truth? Rob forgot Wanda decrypted after Turn start, and thought she did it at sunset. I'd just say, "Let's just leave this one lie, m'kay?"
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:45 pm

Kreistor wrote:The corpses depopping at Dawn problem is one of those flogged dead horses. We've tried to run at that before.

The only conclusion I've been able to come to is that Wanda did not know all the details about depopping when she Popped. She was under the false belief that the corpse had to be moved, when all she really needed to do was "claim" it, which she had learned by the time of tBfGK. It isn't entirely clear if Casters have 100% knowledge of the relevant rule-physics at Pop. They may know the Rules for their specific Spells, but something like "when a corpse depops" may need to be learned the same way Warlords learn how Caster spells work. It is important information, but it is not an inherent part of her spells, so she may simply not know. Yeah, weak, I know.

There is one other possibility. It's a "convenient" solution that works around the problem and dodges the whole business.

The RCC corpses died on their turn, but unlike GK, they all still were suffering Turn Orders due to other conflicts. (Yeah, weak.) If that is so, then since it is implied that GK is before all RCC Sides somwhere, then GK would have a window of time to Decrypt their corpses before their former Sides' Turns start.

The truth? Rob forgot Wanda decrypted after Turn start, and thought she did it at sunset. I'd just say, "Let's just leave this one lie, m'kay?"


Actually, very good points. Just because a character says it's so, doesn't make it so. The characters can lie, cheat, and just be wrong.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Salem » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:31 pm

Kreistor wrote:The corpses depopping at Dawn problem is one of those flogged dead horses. We've tried to run at that before.

The only conclusion I've been able to come to is that Wanda did not know all the details about depopping when she Popped. She was under the false belief that the corpse had to be moved, when all she really needed to do was "claim" it, which she had learned by the time of tBfGK. It isn't entirely clear if Casters have 100% knowledge of the relevant rule-physics at Pop. They may know the Rules for their specific Spells, but something like "when a corpse depops" may need to be learned the same way Warlords learn how Caster spells work. It is important information, but it is not an inherent part of her spells, so she may simply not know. Yeah, weak, I know.

There is one other possibility. It's a "convenient" solution that works around the problem and dodges the whole business.

The RCC corpses died on their turn, but unlike GK, they all still were suffering Turn Orders due to other conflicts. (Yeah, weak.) If that is so, then since it is implied that GK is before all RCC Sides somwhere, then GK would have a window of time to Decrypt their corpses before their former Sides' Turns start.

The truth? Rob forgot Wanda decrypted after Turn start, and thought she did it at sunset. I'd just say, "Let's just leave this one lie, m'kay?"

I'm going to try to respond politely. If I come across as rude I appologize.
We care because the fact of how it works is a matter of strategy. No this doesn't matter for the comic at all because it probably won't come up. But we care. Just because you don't doesn't mean we don't have the right to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:30 pm

Salem wrote:We care because the fact of how it works is a matter of strategy. No this doesn't matter for the comic at all because it probably won't come up. But we care. Just because you don't doesn't mean we don't have the right to.


Salem, you have that all, 100%, dead wrong.

I am known here as a Rules Monger. I have tried hard to keep Rules and Speculation separate, as well as identifying tidbits in comics/texts as Rules, clarifications to previous hints of Rules, and suggestions of Rules to come. I have fought hard to defend the known and interpreted Rules from self-centered alteration. I'm not the only one, of course: there is a group trying to create a playable game from the Rules we uncover here. Their task is harder, because they also need to modify Rules to keep down the processor cycles.

But this one will not resolve. Go ahead and try. It won't. It can't. You've got a direct contradiction of a stated fact. There's nothing more to work with. There is only one solution: you have to pick one of the "facts" as false, for one reason or another. I have chosen Page 6 of Book 0, with a corresponding explanation based on misinformation. (To whit, someone got "claimed or moved" confused with "claimed and moved," so they did both instead of just one or the other.) You are free to select one of the others, if you prefer, but I think choosing differently will lead you to greater problems to work out. But hey, you have the opportunity to prove me wrong. And if you happen to make the right set of comments that inspire me to find the resolution, I can promise that I will not keep it secret.

At some point, you have to accept that Rob is human. He makes mistakes, and so your goal is impossible to achieve. Overanalyzing something that is the artistic product of a human mind, ultimately, lacks satisfaction. Some things will never resolve, because of the simplest of human faults.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby teratorn » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:06 am

Just for the record, nowhere it is implied that all RCC sides went after GK. We know TV and Charlie went before GK, and if order didn't change later, Summer updates and book2 tell us that Unaroyal and Jetstone did in fact go after GK. TV didn't lose units in the final battle, but Charlie lost a bunch of archons. Those were available for decryption but they had allied with Jetstone before croaking. I don't see any reason to assume error on Rob's part, Jetstone was leading the coalition and as such allied units involved, dead or alive, followed Jetstone turn order.
Last edited by teratorn on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Lamech » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:33 am

Hey when did Misty die anyway? We don't see when she croaks. Could Misty have broken her link at the night phase, gotten incapacitated and died at the start of GKs turn?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby teratorn » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:49 am

Lamech wrote:Hey when did Misty die anyway? We don't see when she croaks. Could Misty have broken her link at the night phase, gotten incapacitated and died at the start of GKs turn?


No need for speculation there, Maggie sort of acknowledges that Misty died in the backlash from breaking the link. Stanley's words that he is «partly» responsible for Jack's state hint that he broke the link, so it should have happened close to the time we first hear nuncle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Beeskee » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:31 am

Oberon wrote:
wrecan wrote:[Parson] looks like a potato. Both Stanley and Tramennis have noted Parson's potato-shape as an indication that they do not think he could be much of a warlord. My guess is that large people have the signamancy of dullards (or at least uncreative) and most smart people are of slighter stature. [snippage]
How about the KISS principle, Parson looks exactly like a two eyed twoll? You know, a particularly dim unit type? "I can count to three", etc.



Also, in general, most heavy units we've seen can't speak. There are exceptions to the rule... Which pretty much describes Parson overall.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby junovalkyrie » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:36 am

tgriff02 wrote:One question, though. I keep seeing references to the spokesman for TGMTTA as a master foolamancer, but I cannot find the Comic reference that states he is so. I thought he was another Thinkamancer. could someone help me out with that please?


I asked this in another thread. Apparently it was mentioned on a bonus page in the first book. Someone also clarified that he's actually an adept rather than a master, but every other time I've seen it come up he's been referred to as a master, so I'm not sure which is correct.

teratorn wrote:Stanley's words that he is «partly» responsible for Jack's state hint that he broke the link


There's also, you know, the page where he ordered them to break the link. ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Lamech » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:08 am

teratorn wrote:
Lamech wrote:Hey when did Misty die anyway? We don't see when she croaks. Could Misty have broken her link at the night phase, gotten incapacitated and died at the start of GKs turn?


No need for speculation there, Maggie sort of acknowledges that Misty died in the backlash from breaking the link. Stanley's words that he is «partly» responsible for Jack's state hint that he broke the link, so it should have happened close to the time we first hear nuncle.
Yeah, that's when the backlash happened. But what if the backlash merely incapacitated her?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Salem » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:24 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Salem wrote:We care because the fact of how it works is a matter of strategy. No this doesn't matter for the comic at all because it probably won't come up. But we care. Just because you don't doesn't mean we don't have the right to.


Salem, you have that all, 100%, dead wrong.

I am known here as a Rules Monger. I have tried hard to keep Rules and Speculation separate, as well as identifying tidbits in comics/texts as Rules, clarifications to previous hints of Rules, and suggestions of Rules to come. I have fought hard to defend the known and interpreted Rules from self-centered alteration. I'm not the only one, of course: there is a group trying to create a playable game from the Rules we uncover here. Their task is harder, because they also need to modify Rules to keep down the processor cycles.

But this one will not resolve. Go ahead and try. It won't. It can't. You've got a direct contradiction of a stated fact. There's nothing more to work with. There is only one solution: you have to pick one of the "facts" as false, for one reason or another. I have chosen Page 6 of Book 0, with a corresponding explanation based on misinformation. (To whit, someone got "claimed or moved" confused with "claimed and moved," so they did both instead of just one or the other.) You are free to select one of the others, if you prefer, but I think choosing differently will lead you to greater problems to work out. But hey, you have the opportunity to prove me wrong. And if you happen to make the right set of comments that inspire me to find the resolution, I can promise that I will not keep it secret.

At some point, you have to accept that Rob is human. He makes mistakes, and so your goal is impossible to achieve. Overanalyzing something that is the artistic product of a human mind, ultimately, lacks satisfaction. Some things will never resolve, because of the simplest of human faults.


Feel free to report me for going the way of jillian and just losing for being upset.
I don't give a pony about what someone like you thinks. I don't want to change your mind or make you think anything. You're the kind of person who just wants to be better than others and make them feel bad. You also ignore what people say and twist their words. Gosh. I dislike that on so many levels.

You are self centered to an extreme. Everything you espouse as universal fact is bloody opinion. I find overanalyzing artistic product of the human mind satisifying. You don't. It's a matter of opinion. I loooooove the king killer chronicles minus a large section of book 2. Specifically for the over analyzing of it. I adore it. Because sometimes it might be a flaw and sooooometimes it might be a pure awesome riddle wrapped in a confusing package.

Finally and I won't talk to you anymore to hijack this thread from it's original course. But you are 100% pure wrong. You say I have no right to choose what I care about. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. I do. And if you want to take away that right do it by force. Until then, I care.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:48 pm

Yes, it's easier to insult others than to take up the challenge of solving a complex problem. Pretty much knew that one already.

Like I said, been there, done that, and there was no solution last time either. This isn't arrogance, it's experience.

Good luck.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Lamech wrote:
teratorn wrote:
Lamech wrote:Hey when did Misty die anyway? We don't see when she croaks. Could Misty have broken her link at the night phase, gotten incapacitated and died at the start of GKs turn?


No need for speculation there, Maggie sort of acknowledges that Misty died in the backlash from breaking the link. Stanley's words that he is «partly» responsible for Jack's state hint that he broke the link, so it should have happened close to the time we first hear nuncle.
Yeah, that's when the backlash happened. But what if the backlash merely incapacitated her?


You make a very good point, but ulitmately I am unaware of any evidence toeither support or disprove it, so it'll have to just remainint he stirring pot until some higher power feels like clarifying. One could logically assume that since Maggie was fine, Jack was screwed up in the head, bt physically ok, and Misti died, that that indicates that Misti got a worse dose, rather simply botching her saving throws. Or that Parsons individual interactions with her gave her negative modifiers. Either works for our purposes, although there, once again, isn't any evidence that I know of to support or deny either one. But a more severe backlash than what Jack took, yet not enough to outright croak her, could leave her incapacitated. And since Wanda was being stingy with the scrolls, and even Maggie couldn't have garunteed her recovery, I doubt anyone besides Parson would have seen any benifit to using any kind of healomancy on her. Logically it all works great, we just lack any specific, concrete evidence to Make it So.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby drachefly » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:47 pm

Salem wrote:Finally and I won't talk to you anymore to hijack this thread from it's original course. But you are 100% pure wrong. You say I have no right to choose what I care about. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. I do. And if you want to take away that right do it by force. Until then, I care.


Come, now. He's not more than 85% wrong in general.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby ftl » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:55 pm

Ignore list people, ignore list. When there's someone on these boards that you just want to shout and scream at, ignore list instead. It's a conversation about a webcomic, if it stops being *fun* it's not worth it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby bladestorm » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:12 am

tgriff02 wrote:You make a very good point, but ulitmately I am unaware of any evidence toeither support or disprove it, so it'll have to just remainint he stirring pot until some higher power feels like clarifying. One could logically assume that since Maggie was fine, Jack was screwed up in the head, bt physically ok, and Misti died, that that indicates that Misti got a worse dose, rather simply botching her saving throws. Or that Parsons individual interactions with her gave her negative modifiers. Either works for our purposes, although there, once again, isn't any evidence that I know of to support or deny either one. But a more severe backlash than what Jack took, yet not enough to outright croak her, could leave her incapacitated. And since Wanda was being stingy with the scrolls, and even Maggie couldn't have garunteed her recovery, I doubt anyone besides Parson would have seen any benifit to using any kind of healomancy on her. Logically it all works great, we just lack any specific, concrete evidence to Make it So.

Or she could have been 'incapacitated', which meant she would croak at the start of the next turn. Parson slept until dawn, which would make her freshly deceased when he found her. Or he could have gotten there as she went from 'incapacitated' to 'croaked'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:25 am

Beeskee wrote:Also, in general, most heavy units we've seen can't speak. There are exceptions to the rule... Which pretty much describes Parson overall.
I'm not sure what you mean. All twolls are able to speak. They are just dumb as dirt, which was my point, and why I used the quote I used. Parson looks just like a twoll. That was a strength of the illusion which substituted Bogroll for Parson. Standing next to each other, they were just about twins.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby joosy » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:46 am

Oberon wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Also, in general, most heavy units we've seen can't speak. There are exceptions to the rule... Which pretty much describes Parson overall.
I'm not sure what you mean. All twolls are able to speak. They are just dumb as dirt, which was my point, and why I used the quote I used. Parson looks just like a twoll. That was a strength of the illusion which substituted Bogroll for Parson. Standing next to each other, they were just about twins.

Agreed. The shock is due to his size and I believe also because they can't see his stats.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby bladestorm » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:39 pm

joosy wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Also, in general, most heavy units we've seen can't speak. There are exceptions to the rule... Which pretty much describes Parson overall.
I'm not sure what you mean. All twolls are able to speak. They are just dumb as dirt, which was my point, and why I used the quote I used. Parson looks just like a twoll. That was a strength of the illusion which substituted Bogroll for Parson. Standing next to each other, they were just about twins.

Agreed. The shock is due to his size and I believe also because they can't see his stats.

Or they are getting that same metaphysical sensation Sylvia got just before the volcano blew up. They have heard the stories, but nothing could quite prepare them for when Fate finally walked through the door. They may also be getting a clue as to why Jack and Wanda acted like everything was fine when they went from Ansom large CWL bonus to Parson's puny bonus. Or it could be like seeing the Sistine Chapel in person for the first time. Seeing pictures of it just isn't the same as seeing it in person.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:38 pm

bladestorm wrote:
tgriff02 wrote:You make a very good point, but ulitmately I am unaware of any evidence toeither support or disprove it, so it'll have to just remainint he stirring pot until some higher power feels like clarifying. One could logically assume that since Maggie was fine, Jack was screwed up in the head, bt physically ok, and Misti died, that that indicates that Misti got a worse dose, rather simply botching her saving throws. Or that Parsons individual interactions with her gave her negative modifiers. Either works for our purposes, although there, once again, isn't any evidence that I know of to support or deny either one. But a more severe backlash than what Jack took, yet not enough to outright croak her, could leave her incapacitated. And since Wanda was being stingy with the scrolls, and even Maggie couldn't have garunteed her recovery, I doubt anyone besides Parson would have seen any benifit to using any kind of healomancy on her. Logically it all works great, we just lack any specific, concrete evidence to Make it So.

Or she could have been 'incapacitated', which meant she would croak at the start of the next turn. Parson slept until dawn, which would make her freshly deceased when he found her. Or he could have gotten there as she went from 'incapacitated' to 'croaked'.


LoL, yeah, that's actually what I was saying, check it; 5th line from the top
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