Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

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Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby Mogster2 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:20 pm

When she first became a barbarian ruler, I mean. I don't recall ever seeing it come up in the comic. It's possible she will learn of it in Book 0, but somehow I think that will all depend on Marie.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby ftl » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:30 pm

Wanda's betrayal of FAQ, you mean? No, she doesn't know about that. In book 1 she still thinks Wanda was a prisoner of Gobwin Knob, under the influence of loyalty spells, etc, and she still blames Stanley for destroying FAQ. So she never learns about Wanda's betrayal of Banhammer.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby Mogster2 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:11 pm

Ah, I remember now. When Wanda fired off the tower air defenses. Thanks.

Of course, that also raises the questions:

  • Who else knew about it, apart from Stanley? It doesn't seem like Charlie knew about it, either.
  • Why did Wanda never tell Jillian about it?
  • What would Jillian do if she ever found out?
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby 0beron » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:18 pm

Also recall that we ONLY have Stanley's version of the story. I don't feel that we have enough information to really say even we know what happened there.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby Ryjak » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:13 pm

That's true, but Stanley would have no reason to lie to Zopha about a combat situation. From his perspective:

1) Probably would have croaked to FAQs very strong air defense, but found a bunch of dragons to tame on the way to FAQ.
2) Once air defenses were exPended, the remaining Dwagons were capable of causing mass FAQ casualties.
3) These casualties were being uncroaked and attacking the FAQ defenders, and eventually the uncroaked FAQ Overlord emerged from the Tower.

Clearly, a lot would have happened in the Tower during the attack, especially after Wanda turned to the attacking side. All the other casters present must have died and been uncroaked, which would have made it impossible to ID them.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby Nnelg » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:46 pm

Ryjak wrote:1) Probably would have croaked to FAQs very strong air defense, but found a bunch of dragons to tame on the way to FAQ.
2) Once air defenses were exPended, the remaining Dwagons were capable of causing mass FAQ casualties.
3) These casualties were being uncroaked and attacking the FAQ defenders, and eventually the uncroaked FAQ Overlord emerged from the Tower.

Clearly, a lot would have happened in the Tower during the attack,
especially after Wanda turned to the attacking side. All the other casters present must have died and been uncroaked, which would have made it impossible to ID them.

The blue text is what we know, provided Stanly's testimony is complete and truthful. The red text is jumping to conclusions, for which there is insufficient evidence to say exactly what happened.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:50 pm

Maire could have had something to do with Wanda's apparant betrayal. Wanda making the original deal with Stanley, was probably seen by both Maire and Wanda as helping fate. This would have been in the best interest of FAQ. Then when that plan failed, there was no point in Wanda staying on the same side anymore. Marie new FAQ would fall anyway. Wanda didn't really betray FAQ. She was using what she learned about fate to attempt lessen the hardships to FAQ.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby Ryjak » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:04 am

I apologize for not distinguishing between generalization and conjecture more, but consider the following:

"You're thinking," said Stanley, "that Wanda set me up. But you're wrong. Because as soon as I started wailing on that city," Stanley snapped his fingers, and a little spark shot off the Arkenhammer and hit the ceiling, "boom. She turned. I'm wasting Faq guys down below, and she's uncroaking 'em and sending 'em into the tower to fight their own guys." - Book 2, Text 27

I'm pretty sure Stanley would know exactly when Wanda turned, either from some natural Thinkamancy he possessed as warlord or Chief Warlord, or by seeing Wanda turn with his own eyes. I suppose Wanda could have remained with FAQ, uncroaked dead FAQ units, and sent them into the tower before turning to Gobwin Knob.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby SteveMB » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:47 am

Ryjak wrote:That's true, but Stanley would have no reason to lie to Zopha about a combat situation. From his perspective:

1) Probably would have croaked to FAQs very strong air defense, but found a bunch of dragons to tame on the way to FAQ.
2) Once air defenses were exPended, the remaining Dwagons were capable of causing mass FAQ casualties.
3) These casualties were being uncroaked and attacking the FAQ defenders, and eventually the uncroaked FAQ Overlord emerged from the Tower.


Well, Stanley would have a motivation to spin his account in a self-aggrandizing way (perhaps even doing it unconsciously), but that doesn't seem to have distorted his description of the basic facts. If anything, he avoids that tendency by attributing much of the credit to Fate (stumbling upon an unusual number of dwagons to tame).

Ryjak wrote:I apologize for not distinguishing between generalization and conjecture more, but consider the following:

"You're thinking," said Stanley, "that Wanda set me up. But you're wrong. Because as soon as I started wailing on that city," Stanley snapped his fingers, and a little spark shot off the Arkenhammer and hit the ceiling, "boom. She turned. I'm wasting Faq guys down below, and she's uncroaking 'em and sending 'em into the tower to fight their own guys." - Book 2, Text 27

I'm pretty sure Stanley would know exactly when Wanda turned, either from some natural Thinkamancy he possessed as warlord or Chief Warlord, or by seeing Wanda turn with his own eyes. I suppose Wanda could have remained with FAQ, uncroaked dead FAQ units, and sent them into the tower before turning to Gobwin Knob.


That also sounds like a straightforward statement of the facts, especially given that Stanley clearly doesn't realize that the most straightforward interpretation of those facts is that Wanda did set him up, and then switched to Plan B when he showed up with a lot more force than expected.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:43 pm

Nnelg wrote:
Ryjak wrote:1) Probably would have croaked to FAQs very strong air defense, but found a bunch of dragons to tame on the way to FAQ.
2) Once air defenses were exPended, the remaining Dwagons were capable of causing mass FAQ casualties.
3) These casualties were being uncroaked and attacking the FAQ defenders, and eventually the uncroaked FAQ Overlord emerged from the Tower.

Clearly, a lot would have happened in the Tower during the attack,
especially after Wanda turned to the attacking side. All the other casters present must have died and been uncroaked, which would have made it impossible to ID them.

Ryjak wrote:I apologize for not distinguishing between generalization and conjecture more, but consider the following:

"You're thinking," said Stanley, "that Wanda set me up. But you're wrong. Because as soon as I started wailing on that city," Stanley snapped his fingers, and a little spark shot off the Arkenhammer and hit the ceiling, "boom. She turned. I'm wasting Faq guys down below, and she's uncroaking 'em and sending 'em into the tower to fight their own guys." - Book 2, Text 27

I'm pretty sure Stanley would know exactly when Wanda turned, either from some natural Thinkamancy he possessed as warlord or Chief Warlord, or by seeing Wanda turn with his own eyes. I suppose Wanda could have remained with FAQ, uncroaked dead FAQ units, and sent them into the tower before turning to Gobwin Knob.

Stanley, Book 2 Text 27 wrote:"Rest of their casters I guess croaked or got away to the Magic Kingdom. But hey we got two of the best ones out of it."
Known Information from the Same Page: Stanley has no idea if the other casters actually died, and even says so himself.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby mortissimus » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:30 am

We know that Jack ended up with Gobwin Knob and Marie ended up in the Magic Kingdom. Rest unaccounted for, afaik.

So how did Jack turn?
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby 0beron » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:34 am

mortissimus wrote:So how did Jack turn?

He wasn't in the city, Wanda had supposedly arranged for him to be out of the Capital at the time. So when Stanley went to whichever of the other 2 cities he as in, I'm assuming he was captured/surrendered.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby No one in particular » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:41 pm

Yeah, Jack was captured later. According to Stanley...

LIAB Text 27 wrote:Plus...their Foolamancer wasn't even in the capital. Wanda arranged that, too. We captured him when we razed their other two cities. Pretty neat package, right?
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:17 am

0beron wrote:Also recall that we ONLY have Stanley's version of the story. I don't feel that we have enough information to really say even we know what happened there.

Actually, we have Wanda's version of the story. Notice how Wanda herself admits she was trying to set up Stanley.

Anyway, Stanley had no reason to lie to Zopha (he isn't exactly the kind of person to play mindgames), but he seeks to trust his subordinates. Wanda may've tried to set him up, but at the end of the day she turned AND made sure Jack wasn't in the capital messing up everything with his uber illusions, so Stanley gave her the benefit of doubt
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby drachefly » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:04 am

I knew those facts but never thought of how weird this is. If she was setting him up - and she was, at first - why would she make sure Jack was away? They totally could have run away with it if he'd been on hand.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby 0beron » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:14 am

I actually think Stanley would have plenty of reason to lie, he has an inflated ego he is constantly trying to pump up bigger. And Wanda IS the sort to play mind games, so I'm not sure if we can totally trust her story either. There could be a lot she isn't telling us.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:49 am

On the contrary, Stanley's ego is actually quite diminished otherwise he wouldn't appear as a tiny man due to how signmancy works. Ansom and Jillian, now those have pretty inflated egos and it shows with their tall blonde bodies.

And we already know that Wanda's story isn't trustworthy, since in Wanda's version it's Stanley that croaks the king. Stanley would never skip on the opportunity of boasting he croaked the enemy leader in personal combat in an epic battle. In particular with your version that he loves to boast his ego.

Plus of all the characters we've seen so far, Stanley is the least prone to lying we've seen if you ask me. He loves to boast, yes, but he never makes outright lies, otherwise he would be claiming his hammer can summon dwagons out of thin air and shoot lighting across hexes.

Hmm, perhaps Jack did leave the capital that turn for some other reason, and Wanda just spinned the story to make it look like she did it as a cover for her betrayal?
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby drachefly » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:19 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:And we already know that Wanda's story isn't trustworthy, since in Wanda's version it's Stanley that croaks the king.


Where does she say that? Not in Book 1 page 147.
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby SteveMB » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:40 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Plus of all the characters we've seen so far, Stanley is the least prone to lying we've seen if you ask me. He loves to boast, yes, but he never makes outright lies, otherwise he would be claiming his hammer can summon dwagons out of thin air and shoot lighting across hexes.


That's my take on it -- self-aggrandizing spin yes; outright lies no.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Did Jillian ever learn about Wanda's betrayal?

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:11 pm

drachefly wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:And we already know that Wanda's story isn't trustworthy, since in Wanda's version it's Stanley that croaks the king.


Where does she say that? Not in Book 1 page 147.


I was talking about the 4th panel where Stanley appears shocking some dude, which for some reason I always assumed to be the king. But now I realize there's actually nothing pointing out the zapped dude is king Banhammer.

But my argument still stands. In Wanda's version Stanley dismounts and goes zapping dudes on foot, while in Stanley's version he remains mounted and lets Wanda finish up the ground forces before dropping down. If Stanley was the one spinning the story, he would've claimed how he had landed right away to face the enemy head on to make himself look better.
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