Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:54 am

You present a lot of valid points. Instead of taking the time to discuss each point individually, I think I can save time by quoting myself:
MarbitChow wrote:Players will not be able to create scrolls themselves, ever.


(Edit: ) We had this discussion months ago, and you haven't presented any new arguments. I'll summarize my objections below.
Nnelg wrote:1) If scrolls were difficult and/or time-consuming enough to make, players would not be able to hoard them easily.
1a) Scroll-crafting can be made mutually exclusive with potion-crafting, item-crafting, and golem-crafting.
1b) If scrolls can be sold at the Magic Kingdom then the players themselves have a valid reason to not hoard unneeded scrolls, anyways.

Players should not have an easy way to augment cash for the side. Running out of cash should be a constant fear. Even if PC-made scrolls existed, they would not be able to be sold in the MK. MK Casters need to provide their own upkeep, and selling their services is primarily how they do so. They would strenuously resist aligned casters' attempts to get in on the action. MK casters have a monopoly on scroll sales, period.

Nnelg wrote:2) Casting from a scroll requires an action, which is therefore not available for casting a spell the caster already knows.
2a) The scroll spell will likely be less powerful than the spells the caster knows, or if it isn't then it will be an expensive scroll.
2b) Spell scrolls can be limited so that they are always less powerful than the same spell cast by a caster who knows it.
2c) Specialized casters whom aren't always useful on the battlefield (like Dollamancers, Luckamancers, and Foolamancers) would use (and be given) scrolls more often than powerful casters whose spells are almost always needed in the field (like Healomancers, Shockamancers, and Croakamancers).

Specialized casters who want to also be useful on the battlefield can easily take the appropriate spells. Healamancers can take Hoboken now, Croakamancers can take Revitalize, etc. All casters get Fire. If casters want to specialize exclusively, they pay the price. Scrolls negate the penalty of specialization.

Nnelg wrote:3) Scrolls, being single-charge items limited to casters, are not all that powerful.
3a) In fact, a level 4 Dollamancer can create the equivalent of a Hoboken Scroll that can be used by any unit for only 6 Juice.
3b) Outside the Healomancy and Shockamancy schools, few spells are desirable enough to be hoarded.
3bb) And Healomancers and Shockamancers are busy crafting potions.

If there are few spells that are worth being created as scrolls, then there is no need for scrolls. But thanks for pointing out the Dollamancer issue - the juice cost on that is clearly too low- it should be at least 8x casting cost, to bring it in line with potion creation costs.

Nnelg wrote:4) Additional flexibility for casters isn't a bad thing.
4a) Trading a permanent and limited resource for short-term gain will mean that scrolls are never used frivolously (or if they are, the other players will shout at the one who did so).
4b) Scrolls would allow low-level and/or less-useful casters to fulfill a wider variety of roles.
4c) There currently aren't many sources of healing; so there's plenty of room for another.
4cc) Healing scrolls make perfect "use only in case of emergency" items.
4d) It would allow casters without lingering buffs to be more useful during down-time.

Casters can have as much flexibility as they want - they just have to buy the spells. No caster yet has chosen to sacrifice specialization for flexibility.
Healing should be rarer. Healers are valuable. If you want more healers, have casters take Revitalize.
If you want scrolls for emergency use, buy them from the Magic Kingdom.

Casters are already the 'favored children' of the campaign. Military units don't get nearly as many perks. Only a select few Military units have ANYTHING to do during downtime at all. While my goal is to make sure everyone has something to do, casters in general have far more to do than military units. They're each unique and delicate snowflakes, while many military units stand by the sidelines both between and DURING combats (*waves to the poor bodyguards and melee units*).

So, in conclusion, players will not be able to create scrolls themselves, ever.
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby Nnelg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:22 pm

Hmm... Fair enough. I still think scrolls could still be made into useful additions to the game.

But not yet... There are more important problems to deal with.
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby CroverusRaven » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:27 am

*waves back while trying to just get by RPing, hoping for SOMETHING to do*
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby Nnelg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:39 pm

I've thought of another idea: the "Specialist" build.

The idea is to capture all non-unique roles that aren't one of the five primary builds under one heading. This would include Miners/Sappers, 'Artisans', and even a few other roles we haven't included yet; such as 'Siege Operator' and 'Advisor'.

The stat line would go like this:
Specialist: 2 Combat / 3 Defense / 8 Hits. 8 Square Move. 8 Overland Hex Move. Assault. 1 AP to purchase abilities. Special: Rear Echelon.


Specialists cannot be popped as "Zed" or Garrison Units. Specialists cost 0.5 UP to pop, except that Specialists may be popped with the Regent special at the Capital for 1 UP. Specialists that reach Level 4 are instead "promoted" to Level 2 Warriors (they keep all skills learned as Specialists). Reduce their Exp to match their new level.

In addition to all the skills normally allowed for non-military units, Specialists can take the following skills and specials for 1AP each: Regent (Capital only), Mining, Fabricate, Siege Operator, Scout. (Note: I couldn't find the description of the Scout special.)

Hypothetical new Special:
Siege Operator: Needed to operate a Catapult or (to a lesser extent) Ballista. (Lost operators reduce the efficiency of the Siege weapon. Units with Military may take the place of lost operators, but this still results in a (smaller) penalty.)
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:30 pm

I'm only going to bother with builds for PCs. Miners, and artisans will not be brought into battle, so they'll likely never level. It's easier to just define a basic unit and give it a special. I only plan to create builds for units that the PCs can take (or make, for constructs).

I've added Scout to the list of specials.
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby Nnelg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:30 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Miners, and artisans will not be brought into battle

Um, are you so sure? :lol:

I was going to use them to crew Ballistae and Catapults.
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:38 pm

Nnelg wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Miners, and artisans will not be brought into battle

Um, are you so sure? :lol:

I was going to use them to crew Ballistae and Catapults.

Mobile Structures
All mobile structures require operators. Operators must have the Military special.

Sappers (miners/diggers) and artisans don't get the Military special.
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby Nnelg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:03 pm

It's a shame, then. They would have been useful that way, and there's the obvious trade-off in the fact that they're easier to croak than military units.

But we're still probably going to trail around at least one Gobwin Artisan, so that we have access to Fabricate whenever we need it. (How exactly does that work, by the way?)
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:39 pm

Nnelg wrote:It's a shame, then. They would have been useful that way, and there's the obvious trade-off in the fact that they're easier to croak than military units.
But we're still probably going to trail around at least one Gobwin Artisan, so that we have access to Fabricate whenever we need it. (How exactly does that work, by the way?)
As in, how does that work in combat, or total? I was assuming that each artisan could make an item or two a day. Larger items, like the cart, would probably require 2-4 artisans.

I was honestly just planning on fudging it, since it wasn't that important.
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Re: Hypothetical Rules for Darkness Rising

Postby Nnelg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:19 pm

Just another thought:

Since Sto is the Gobwins' Tribal Leader, perhaps all Gobwins stacked with him should get a +1 inspiration bonus?


If we ever have a battle in Tenebris itself, perhaps we could do a similar (maybe more powerful) thing for Creeperum...
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