Death of King Saline IV

[Balerion]

I have a theory. I think Charlie was behind it, not Stanley. Everyone in world has assumed it was Stanley because of the mission he and the casters happened to be on and that the gain was his, but let me make my case:

1) We know that Charlie has sufficient influence to make natural allies switch sides (a la the mountain giants and Jitterati)
2) We know that Stanley hates Charlie
3)We know that Charlie, in violation of his usual neutrality principals, is actively working against GK at the current time.
4)We have direct precedence for Charlie influencing Gobwin tribes around GK in that the bracer strongly believes he is the reason none have been found post volcano.

This does leave the question of motive. My personal belief is that Charlie is fighting against the Fate Wanda is trying to fulfill, namely that the Arkentools are brought together, and struck out against a side that had one, and a caster Predicted to acquire another one. I think his paranoia and refusal to let any unit that can think for itself into his city (despite what would be noticeable cost savings and combat ability gains) are also tied into this. But, in a more general sense: his motive would be the same one driving him against GK right now, whatever that happens to be.

I think it fits pretty nicely. Why else does Stanley hate Charlie with such a passion that he would rather die then hire Charlie's aid? And to think of it another way, does Stanley seem bright enough that he could pull off that coup on his own? And where is his motive? everything we've seen about him makes me think he was happy as chief. But what do you guys think?

[drachefly]

If by everyone in the world you mean everyone in Erfworld, then I agree; I believe many of us out here suspect something like this, especially since Jitterati.

[Mrtyuh]

It is dangerous to attempt to speak for others, so take this with a grain of salt. Still, it seems to me that the two most widely accepted theories concerning King Saline IV's demise lay the blame with either Wanda or Charlie. At least, that's the impression I get.

[heyduck]

I don't think Charlie had anything to do with Saline's death, any idea that puts Charlie at the center of his demise is too convoluted for me to take seriously (Occam's razor); I can see why he would help destroy Faq but not kill Saline. Stanley is too dumb to have higher ambitions he seemed happy where he was, taming dwagons and being chief warlord; I'm in the camp that Wanda did it.

[cloudbreaker]

I don't think Charlie had anything to do with Saline's death, any idea that puts Charlie at the center of his demise is too convoluted for me to take seriously (Occam's razor); I can see why he would help destroy Faq but not kill Saline. Stanley is too dumb to have higher ambitions he seemed happy where he was, taming dwagons and being chief warlord; I'm in the camp that Wanda did it.

I disagree. I think it is entirely plausible to have Charlie be at the center of King Saline's demise. Here is a way I could see events unfolding.

1. Charlie wants to know if it is even possible for an attuned wielder of an arkentool to be destroyed.
2. He convinces the gobwins and hobgobwins of Gobwin Knob to end their alliance and croak King Slately so that Stanley, who is in the field, will disband and prove that arkentool wielders can be beaten.
3. The plan fails because Stanley had been promoted to heir designate and became an overlord instead of disbanding.
4. Charlie releases the hobgobwins and gobwins from their end of the bargain (with a clause that requires them to keep it secret if possible), and they rejoin Gobwin Knob.

I think this is one possible solution to the mystery because it includes Charlie trying to gain some valuable information (especially since he himself is an attuned wielder of an arkentool), it helps explain why Stanley has such a strong dislike of Charlie, and it explains why Vurp wouldn't tell Parson what happened with King Saline's downfall.

[heyduck]

Why would he want to know if you can kill a person that is attuned? Also why not have the gobwins and hobs betray when they are near Stanley and kill him before he can even know what was happening? Also why didn't he try to kill Stanley during the battle for gobwin knob, he could have easily not taken Parson's offer and sent a bunch of of Archons to help kill Stanley with Jillians help, so why waste so much time to do something that fails to prove anything; and then not do it at a later more convenient time?

[Mrtyuh]

Charlie's desire to croak a Tool is recent, motivated by his desire to end Toolism and get back to business as usual. There are a couple of simple reasons Charlie may have been behind the Gobwin Uprising, though.

One potential reason was to attempt to seize the Arkenhammer. It is possible Stanley was the real target of the Uprising, but due to bad timing, he left before it happened. We know Charlie is interested in obtaining Artifacts. He wanted Parson's Bracer, and he "bit pretty hard" on the prospect of obtaining the Archenpliers. As for why he didn't just help Jillian croak Stanley, he may have felt, at that time, the Bracer was a better target. As far as he knew, nobody knew of its existence. It may have been more tempting to abscond with the Bracer, which would not be missed, than attempt to seize the Arkenhammer, which his contract probably forbade. I'm sure someone in the RCC had already claimed it. He may have felt he would have another opportunity later. It would be easier to make an unknown item vanish than something as legendary as an Arkentool.

Another motive Charlie may have had was simple chaos. He may have had Stanley's number and known he would probably antagonize his neighbor's. By creating problems, Charlie is creating business for himself. He may not have realized the influence Wanda was exerting on Stanley, which would result in such a broad coalition against him.

As for Wanda, she was quite capable of influencing Stanley, but she may not have been able to influence Saline. By desposing of Saline, she was able to encourage Stanley to quest for the Arkentools, knowing that one of them would be hers.

Anyways, those are the more lucid theories I remember floating around.

[pSycHOtic chICkeN]

Book 0 for Stanley has not yet been published. Probably not written either.

So, I decided the most plausible story of Saline's demise starts with the Occupy Gobwin Gnob movement. Gobwin Gnob was a center of great financial wealth because of the gem mines. The masses of gobwins working in the mines got fed up with poor mining conditions, the disparity in wealth, and they were upset with some wasteful uses of the treasury. The gobwins and some humans went on strike and they set up a camp next to the tower of efdup instead of entering the mines. After many turns of lost revenue and various brutal assaults on the strikers Saline IV decided to try and appease the masses. He allowed non-noble pikers to advance to warlord. Later Saline promoted Stanley the Plaid to heir because Stanley seamed incompetent and a non-threat. When another strike began Saline sent Stanley out on a mission with most the the non-noble heroes so that he could commence another brutal crack down on the Occupy Gobwin Gnob movement without their interference. When Saline decided to bring in Marbit scabs to work the mines some of the Gobwins decided that non-violent methods were not working.

I am sure Rob could embellish that outline much better than I.

[MarbitChow]

I also cast my vote in favor of Charlie being behind it. I placed a wager regarding this back in August, the last time this was discussed.

[mantimeforgot]

The fact that Wanda uncroaked Saline after he fell and used him against his own troops is something highly suggestive to me of Wanda trying to "not fight Fate" as she is want to do. But this by itself doesn't make me think she is the ultimate agent of Faq's downfall. We don't know where Charlie is from, and we don't know how Charlie knows about Faq. Until those two questions are answered I don't think any of us can preclude Charlie from a list of ultimate causal agents in Saline's downfall (Vurp being unwilling to tell Parson, whom Vurp says he trusts, is highly suggestive of a large plot at work; if it were just Wanda being "evil," then that would be so normal that I don't think Vurp would think anything about mentioning it).

MTF

[Sieggy]

. . . . you mean Banhammer, I believe.

[Nnelg]

I also cast my vote in favor of Charlie being behind it. I placed a wager regarding this back in August, the last time this was discussed.

In fact, I'll make one of my own right now.

[mantimeforgot]

. . . . you mean Banhammer, I believe.

Err... yeah... My apologies got the two conflated. What do we know specifically about Saline's death then? He croaked while Stanley was away, and it involved a gobwin/hobgobwin betrayal of some kind... Do we know anything else for certain?

MTF

[Itoh]

It has Wanda's fingerprints all over it. She had Saline assassinated because Stanley would be easier for her to manipulate. I doubt Charlie or Stanley had anything to do with it. My guess is she used a suggestion spell on the hobgobwin chief to get them to break alliance.

[effataigus]

so why waste so much time to do something that fails to prove anything; and then not do it at a later more convenient time?

I'm working under the theory that he was after the arkenhammer, not Stanley/Saline/Proof-of-concept. Presumably he would not get the arkenhammer if he killed Stanley while working for TV (as was the plan if he was to help in that airbattle)... it is also possible that Stanley would have not engaged at all if confronted by the planned force. By contrast, if Stanely depopped he could just search around his last known location.

Occam's razor is fine, but remember that it states that the theories being compared have to account for the available observations. Meaning you're going to need a convoluted theory for it to not involve Charlie given that he's had a hand in 1.7 out of 2 known natural ally meddlings.

Nnelg, to be clear, you are betting that Charlie was NOT behind this (and the other thing) no?

On a somewhat related note, there has been lots of theorizing that Charlie is a carnymancer and that the arkenhammer is carnymancy-based. Would be neat to see what attuning to two artifacts can do. He'll be limited by the fact that he's a tuna though. Can't breathe air and all that.

[Nakedkali]

My interpretation is that Zhopa, Sizemore and Wanda all know things about the Saline IV debacle, things that it would have been useful for Gotti to know. It seems unlikely that all of them are Charlie's dupes. Especially not since Firebaugh declined to defect when Zamussels offered.

[Ryjak]

The problem here are the assumptions people are making. We know for certain the order of the two big events here; the fall of FAQ, and the fall of Saline.... As pointed out below, thats about it.

In both cases, the author made it sound like there was a third party involved. For the Fall of FAQ, it looks like something caused a bunch of dragons to gather/pop along Stanley's flight path. As we are led to believe Charlie can intercept Thinkagrams, he could have heard the entire discussion between Wanda and Stanley, and manipulated dragons to pop or gather along the flight path Wanda would have provided... Otherwise Stanley would have no idea where to go. As FAQ was often a mercenary competitor, Charlie could see this as a way of destroying the competition. Further, we have strong evidence via the Bracer Charlie can manipulate "wild" units. He's either preventing Gobwins from popping, or he's getting Marbits to kill them as soon as they pop, and could potentially use the same technique to place Dwagons where Stanley could tame them. But thats all speculation.

As for the fall of Saline, something caused the Gobwins and Hobs to break their long-standing alliance. The only time we've seen this happen was when the Western Giants betrayed Jitterai, and it's very strongly implied Charlie was behide this. But it's hard to determin anyone's motive for disposing King Saline IV. I can see something for Charlie, a weak one for Wanda, and nothing for Stanley. He stated King Saline already let him do as he pleased as Chief Warlord, and he enjoys fighting and taming Dwagons, both of which he'd have to give up as Overlord.

[drachefly]

No, we know FAQ fell first because Stanley had to make an excuse that he was going out dwagon hunting.