Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:25 pm

That assumes basic soldiers are capable of acting treacherous, which it doesn't seem likely given the strength of Obedience and Loyalty. And if they somehow are, there is the auto-disband function. Commanders seem to get some leeway because they have Duty, and can rationalize defying orders, but otherwise they should disband.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:13 pm

0beron wrote:That assumes basic soldiers are capable of acting treacherous, which it doesn't seem likely given the strength of Obedience and Loyalty. And if they somehow are, there is the auto-disband function. Commanders seem to get some leeway because they have Duty, and can rationalize defying orders, but otherwise they should disband.

Perhaps. And for the most part, yeah, the Ruler is probably doing the personal disbanding, as Average Joe Stabber probably can't commit treason. But a commander could, and they answer to the Ruler.
But consider that the hobgobwins were allowed to harvest the dwagons, despite not being commanders.
A commander doesn't need to be told to do every little thing; they're allowed to defy orders, to an extent, or even make up orders, or even, in some rare cases, order their rulers around.
Now, a commander, in most cases, might have absolutely zero reason to disband Average Joe Stabber, as most likely Average Joe Stabber would probably auto-disband for treason. But think about this: commanders are like Rulers in miniature.
Surely they should be able to end any unit they believe too costly to support, or too treasonous to keep around?

I dunno, I like to take a step back and consider Erfworld from the perspective of the Stupidworld Middle Ages. A Stabber is pretty much farm boys who were given a weapon, and put on the front lines. Archers the same. And Pikers maybe trained a little. Knights are knights(hey, who's gonna hold the first tournament?), of course. Specials are where things begin to diverge from Stupidworld. But they're essentially the Elite units that Stupidworld sides had on hand; like Russian Hussars. Napoleon's elite troops(whose name escapes me). Which took a while to train, like knights. Commanders/rulers are the people you read about in text books. They took a while to get where they got, hence the training time. Heirs.. well, that's partly game balance partly there could only be 1 proper heir around at a time. So while you had knights being born and reaching kighthood all the time, it took the heir a while to grow up, relative to the waves of far more common knights.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:28 pm

Koliup wrote:But consider that the hobgobwins were allowed to harvest the dwagons, despite not being commanders.
Harvesting is a seperate mechanic from disbanding. Disbanding makes the unit totally and instantly disappear, Harvesting is like a 1-hit coup d'grace to turn the unit into meat.
Koliup wrote:Surely they should be able to end any unit they believe too costly to support, or too treasonous to keep around?
This seems logical in our world's logic....but in Erfworld the Ruler IS the Side, the physical embodiment of it. When you consider that, it seems only logical that power for willfull disbanding lies in their hands alone. Though it makes sense they might do it based on a Commander's recommendation.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:39 pm

0beron wrote:
Koliup wrote:But consider that the hobgobwins were allowed to harvest the dwagons, despite not being commanders.
Harvesting is a seperate mechanic from disbanding. Disbanding makes the unit totally and instantly disappear, Harvesting is like a 1-hit coup d'grace to turn the unit into meat.
Koliup wrote:Surely they should be able to end any unit they believe too costly to support, or too treasonous to keep around?
This seems logical in our world's logic....but in Erfworld the Ruler IS the Side, the physical embodiment of it. When you consider that, it seems only logical that power for willfull disbanding lies in their hands alone. Though it makes sense they might do it based on a Commander's recommendation.


True on the harvesting. But typically only commanders can harvest a unit.
Perhaps, to invert a good idea; a commander could be 'lent' the ability to disband(even if by way of murdering them in combat) a unit at the Ruler's recommendation?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:33 pm

Koliup wrote:True on the harvesting. But typically only commanders can harvest a unit.


Really? Cuz we're doing this accurate to the comic, and comic is pretty damned clear this is not the case.

I'm also thinking only a ruler can disband. They effectively own all the other units, after all, while any other commander is simply ranked higher or lower in regards to anyone else. The best a commander could do might perhaps be to order a unit on a suicide mission. Closest method to disbanding they have.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:34 pm

Lord of Monies wrote:
Koliup wrote:True on the harvesting. But typically only commanders can harvest a unit.


Really? Cuz we're doing this accurate to the comic, and comic is pretty damned clear this is not the case.

I'm also thinking only a ruler can disband. They effectively own all the other units, after all, while any other commander is simply ranked higher or lower in regards to anyone else. The best a commander could do might perhaps be to order a unit on a suicide mission. Closest method to disbanding they have.


When have we seen a non-commander unit that belongs to a side harvest another unit of the same side of its own volition, while not under orders to do such a thing? 'Typically' means that most often, commanders are the ones doing the deed. But it has been shown they can give the duty to a subordinate.
Anyway. Recall that harvesting leaves you with meat, but no more Beast class unit. It's essentially disbanding with a perk. Parson points out that he could harvest a dwagon if he was so inclined. And, while I may be incorrect on this; when Parson engaged the dwagon drop, I do not think Stanley had agreed to that particular maneuver. They did not have his consent(other than 'win the battle') to essentially disband his dwagons. But they did it anyway.
What's the point I'm trying to make here, then? Well, it's that harvesting is merely an offshoot version of disbanding. Harvesting can be performed under orders from those 'above' you, so why can't disbanding?
Mind, any warlord with half a brain isn't going to be disbanding their own guys of their own will left and right; that's a great way to bring the ire of your ruler, and get yourself croaked by them. If anything, it is an act of necessity that would bring a warlord to disband his own men without consent of his ruler. Because destroying your side's ability to fight, without good reason, is treason. I'd put it under the heading of things that warlords do only if explicitly told to do so, or they have 100% belief it will help their side. Anything else is auto-disbandable.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:12 pm

Lord of Monies wrote:
Koliup wrote:True on the harvesting. But typically only commanders can harvest a unit.


Really? Cuz we're doing this accurate to the comic, and comic is pretty damned clear this is not the case.

I'm also thinking only a ruler can disband. They effectively own all the other units, after all, while any other commander is simply ranked higher or lower in regards to anyone else. The best a commander could do might perhaps be to order a unit on a suicide mission. Closest method to disbanding they have.

I believe that a commander needs to be in hex to harvest units according to the klog.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Though in theory disbanding and harvesting result in similar outcomes, they're still done very differently. Disbanding is "I make you cease to be with a thought", whereas Harvesting means you actually make an attack against the unit in question.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:32 pm

0beron wrote:Though in theory disbanding and harvesting result in similar outcomes, they're still done very differently. Disbanding is "I make you cease to be with a thought", whereas Harvesting means you actually make an attack against the unit in question.


Correct.
However, they are still essentially the same. One just gives something back immediately.
The fact the unit being harvested has to be struck is probably another of those curious links to Stupidworld. After all, you harvest animals by killing and then rending their corpse. Functionally, it's no different than willing a unit out of existence.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:03 pm

Koliup wrote:Functionally, it's no different than willing a unit out of existence.


Wreckrium.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:47 pm

Kaed wrote:
Koliup wrote:Functionally, it's no different than willing a unit out of existence.


Wreckrium.


Wrequiem required a tool of the titans to achieve its effects, and the pliers were already breaking all the rules about croakamancy, and indeed even some of the physics of Erfworld!
That aside; you missed the point. The unit, sans fantastical circumstances(like being revived by a one of a kind tool of the titans, by possibly the only unit on Erfworld who can use the tool. Guess that happens every day, eh?), is gone. It takes longer to de-spawn, but that's about it.
But how does this feed into the discussion at hand?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:09 pm

Decryption still obeys the same rules a Croakamancy in terms of what counts a valid corpse capable of being raised. So the fact that Harvesting leaves valid corpses is a big distinction.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:36 am

0beron wrote:Decryption still obeys the same rules a Croakamancy in terms of what counts a valid corpse capable of being raised. So the fact that Harvesting leaves valid corpses is a big distinction.


Yes, it leaves valid corpses for Croakamancy. But it seems probable a raised cadaver will not provide harvest materials. Harvesting a unit seems in part much like how a pig works in Erfworld: It exists, at some point de-pops, then rations pop in its stead. So the unit still exists as something that can be raised until you get your meat from it, which occurs some time at or before dawn/start of turn.
The argument for why a commander should be allowed to disband units under their command(provided same side, etc.) is that harvesting is essentially a delayed disbandment that gives meat for beasts. If a commander can harvest a creature, surely they should be allowed to disband them, as well?
Either way, doing this willy-nilly is probably bad for a side. So it makes sense that a commander would seek permission from their ruler beforehand. Even if that permission is 'do whatever you gotta do to win the fight'.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:46 pm

A sudden thought. When casters level, their juice pool increases so as to allow them to do bigger and better things later, meanwhile their stats don't really change as their casting is what really matters. Would the same also apply to units with simple -mancy? It's simple, so the idea is it's limited, but would they get even a little boost?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:04 pm

Lord of Monies wrote:A sudden thought. When casters level, their juice pool increases so as to allow them to do bigger and better things later, meanwhile their stats don't really change as their casting is what really matters. Would the same also apply to units with simple -mancy? It's simple, so the idea is it's limited, but would they get even a little boost?


Mmm no. Only casters get stronger magic per level. I might let them pool magic if they are stacked together and working in concert, though.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:12 pm

A group of Koliup's surgeons could cast the stack-heal spell, for example. That seems fair.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:20 pm

Good, now focus a little more on that update I just gave you.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:49 pm

Yes yes, I'm working on it. It's sort of a not-much-happens post so I'm never too sure what to do to fill it up with.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:43 pm

Try poetry, trail songs, and discussing the finer points of unarmed combat.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:26 am

For idle banter, I shall keep that in mind. Any general tips for tackling moral quandries?
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