Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby danielkaplan123 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:12 am

balder wrote:http://www.erfworld.com/2012/11/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%e2%80%93-episode-051/ is up.


What I find most interesting is that Rob's brain drew a really interesting the parallel between

Charlie, the unseen all powerful man behind the speaker phone, and
WoO, the unseen all powerful man behind the curtain.

That's just cool.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby mortissimus » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:19 am

Lamech wrote:Judy can't be from Stupidworld. She if she was she would have a big fat WTFHAXXS! sign hanging from her in the form of no visible points.


But far as I know the stats an only be seen by commanders on the same side. Jillian is a prisoner but still probably a FAQ unit in that respect.

So Judy can be from Stupidworld and only her commanders would know.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:48 am

Actually that is a good point that further proves my theory. GK is known to be the most defensible city in the world, and Charlie thought about a dozen archons could take it...yet he defens HIS city with over 100. To me, this implies the "murderous defenses" are the Archons.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby :-) » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:10 am

Kornaki wrote:
:-) wrote:
Sharik wrote:6. Who are or were the tin man, lion, and scarecrow?


Jillian is the scarecrow for she has no brain...


Wanda could be the tin man with no heart?


Heh maybe Charlie is the lion with no courage and some other person is the actual wizard
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby effataigus » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:22 am

mortissimus wrote:
Lamech wrote:Judy can't be from Stupidworld. She if she was she would have a big fat WTFHAXXS! sign hanging from her in the form of no visible points.


But far as I know the stats an only be seen by commanders on the same side.

We've had confirmation on a couple of occasions that hostile commanders can see an opponent's stats. I remember because I didn't believe it for awhile either! If you're basing this off of the same passage I was from back in book 1, a reread will show that it is vaguely written. Anyway, here's an example:

As he spoke, his bright teeth always showed, and his eyes twinkled with an absolute faith in...something. Jillian couldn't imagine what. She was a Level 7 Chief Warlord, and she had a Level 6 and a 2 under her command. This man was a Level 4, and she was scared to dust of him.

from: http://www.erfworld.com/2012/03/inner-p ... isode-028/

0beron wrote:Actually that is a good point that further proves my theory. GK is known to be the most defensible city in the world, and Charlie thought about a dozen archons could take it...yet he defens HIS city with over 100. To me, this implies the "murderous defenses" are the Archons.
:D Your point now being that archons are powerful? ... why are you allowed to include archons in the power of a city but Glome isn't? Also, level 5 is as defensible as it gets, and truth is that we don't know how well hidden his city is. We only know that GK didn't know where it was before kidnapping an archon despite CC having a presence in the region.

Mostly, I think we should stop objecting to (largely correct) minutiae... especially when Glome's post was making a neat point, which I'd paraphrase as: Charlie may or may not have an endgame in sight, as he seems to be enjoying the status quo.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:36 pm

effataigus wrote:Your point now being that archons are powerful? ... why are you allowed to include archons in the power of a city but Glome isn't?

No I was responding to junovalkyrie's post actually. I was pointing out that the strength of Charlie's city was likely the Archons, not a factor of architecture. So I was, on that topic at least, still agreeing with Glome, just clarifying *why* Charlie had a strong spot.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Nueamin » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Lamech wrote:Judy can't be from Stupidworld. She if she was she would have a big fat WTFHAXXS! sign hanging from her in the form of no visible points.


This is a very valid point and I would say dismisses the possibility of Judy being anything but an Erfworldian except for Jillian is so very drugged up and before that so very focused and one minded on finding her next fix that she could have possibly missed that. I still give it a 9 out of 10 chance Judy is from Erfworld
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Sharik » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:01 pm

0beron wrote:
effataigus wrote:Your point now being that archons are powerful? ... why are you allowed to include archons in the power of a city but Glome isn't?

No I was responding to junovalkyrie's post actually. I was pointing out that the strength of Charlie's city was likely the Archons, not a factor of architecture. So I was, on that topic at least, still agreeing with Glome, just clarifying *why* Charlie had a strong spot.


We've seen before that the physical structure of a city has a lot to do with how defensible it is. Some cities have big walls to defend against ground attacks. Some cities have big main towers for powerful spell-casting - like the Jetstone capital or Goodminton at the end. Some cities have lots of towers with anti-air stuff on them - like Transylvito - but relatively minimal ground defenses.

So, when Charlie's city is described as having "murderous defenses", certainly its garrison is part of it - but it also is probably (based on what we've seen of it) difficult to access by ground, well-built to defend itself by air, and likely has everything that can possibly be spelled up to produce defensive advantage spelled up by one or more of the casters that Charlie periodically hires.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:24 pm

0beron wrote:Actually that is a good point that further proves my theory. GK is known to be the most defensible city in the world, and Charlie thought about a dozen archons could take it...yet he defens HIS city with over 100. To me, this implies the "murderous defenses" are the Archons.

Still think its both. Archons have dollamancy which should be a bit better than just fabrication. He can use that to fortify his defenses, build traps, build ballistic engines, maybe even add on to the city outright. GK was the best known defensive position. Charlies defenses would be unknown, especially ones he had the archons build.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:34 pm

Fair points.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Radagast » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:59 pm

Nueamin wrote:
Lamech wrote:Judy can't be from Stupidworld. She if she was she would have a big fat WTFHAXXS! sign hanging from her in the form of no visible points.


This is a very valid point and I would say dismisses the possibility of Judy being anything but an Erfworldian except for Jillian is so very drugged up and before that so very focused and one minded on finding her next fix that she could have possibly missed that. I still give it a 9 out of 10 chance Judy is from Erfworld


Actually I thought this proved the point, not the other way around. Jillian almost stepped on her, which kinda hints that there wasn't a little stat box hanging over her. Not to mention she couldn't tell by looking at her that she was an Overlady.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Radagast » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:05 pm

0beron wrote:Actually that is a good point that further proves my theory. GK is known to be the most defensible city in the world, and Charlie thought about a dozen archons could take it...yet he defens HIS city with over 100. To me, this implies the "murderous defenses" are the Archons.


You are comparing the cities in two different ways using related words. GK was the toughest *defensible* position while Charliescomm is *well-defended* to the extreme, not to mention hard to reach (which is also not the same thing as defensible).

GK is known to be the most defensible city in the world, yes. Parson equates the NEW GK with a theoretical Level 8 city. However just because it's defensible doesn't mean it's well-defended. Keep in mind that when Charlie thought 14 Archons might be able to take GK, they had basically no air force and no tower defenses remaining (and Wanda was all screwed up, and their CWL was only a Level 2), and mostly low-level uncroaked as defenders. It seems that 28 Archons were considered to be up to the task (otherwise he would have sent more!)...

Now, if Stanley was there with the Hammer and his fleet of Dwagons, and put some spells on the tower, it's going to take a lot more Archons.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:33 pm

Radagast wrote:You are comparing the cities in two different ways using related words. GK was the toughest *defensible* position while Charliescomm is *well-defended* to the extreme, not to mention hard to reach (which is also not the same thing as defensible).

Correct actually, this is indeed what I was trying to say. Using the quote Parson got from the Archons is like trying to compare an apple to an alien fruit you've never seen. It's hard to tell whether Charlie's Capital is Defensible, or Well Defended, or both.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Nnelg » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:48 pm

DyolfKnip wrote:And clearly Olive has no desire to rule outright herself, or she'd have taken the throne ages ago.

Not necessarily. It could be something she'd like, but doesn't need, and would take too much effort to accomplish herself.


atalex wrote:it's possibly that Judy/Dorothy could have been brought to Erfworld as a child and then kept at that age level by magic and/or some inherent property of Erfworld. If so, she might well be indistinguishable from a typical Erfworlder.

A good point.


Radagast wrote:
Nueamin wrote:
Lamech wrote:Judy can't be from Stupidworld. She if she was she would have a big fat WTFHAXXS! sign hanging from her in the form of no visible points.
This is a very valid point and I would say dismisses the possibility of Judy being anything but an Erfworldian except for Jillian is so very drugged up and before that so very focused and one minded on finding her next fix that she could have possibly missed that. I still give it a 9 out of 10 chance Judy is from Erfworld
Actually I thought this proved the point, not the other way around. Jillian almost stepped on her, which kinda hints that there wasn't a little stat box hanging over her. Not to mention she couldn't tell by looking at her that she was an Overlady.

I agree with Radagast, Jillian most likely just hasn't noticed the missing box. After all, she isn't the most observant person even when she isn't high.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby name lips » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:18 pm

Seeing stat blocks seems inconsistent. Our only example of what they look like comes from the Klog entry on the 3d glasses, with a picture of Bogroll and his stats. You obviously can't use them to spot hidden or veiled units, but once you spot them, do little stat blocks suddenly appear?

I was arguing a week or two ago that it was impossible to lie about who you are, since your name shows up on the stat block. But somebody pointed out that there are many examples of people not knowing about people they see, like Jillian being confronted by a scouting party who wanted to know her name and side.

But there are also instances where people casually observe other units and seem to know what level they are.

Maybe you automatically can see stats for units on your own Side, but not others. Maybe you can choose to not see them. After all, if you're in a battle with thousands of units, your vision would get awfully cluttered if you had to look at thousands of stat blocks simultaneously. Maybe you have to look at a unit and deliberately "want" to see the stat block, and then you just become aware of it, as if it had always been there.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Glome » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:40 pm

name lips wrote:I was arguing a week or two ago that it was impossible to lie about who you are, since your name shows up on the stat block. But somebody pointed out that there are many examples of people not knowing about people they see, like Jillian being confronted by a scouting party who wanted to know her name and side.

But there are also instances where people casually observe other units and seem to know what level they are.



I just assumed that Parson's glasses just gave him a little bit more info on the stat block than everyone else got. Basically everyone can see level, hit points and specials, but the 3D glasses also gives you a name as well. It is a magic item, so there is no reason it has to exactly replicate a natural Erfworld ability.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Itoh » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:47 pm

Parson's glasses let him see different things than an Erfworlder. Parson can see the name of a unit and the discipline of a caster, but not their level. Normal Erfworlders can see level, but not names. They can also recognize casters, but can't see what their discipline is.

Assuming Charlie is a Carnymancer, it looks like Carnymancers cheat fate by swapping the number-debts of units. Charlie might've transferred his number-debt to Judy in order to survive Efbaum's fall.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Radagast » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:11 pm

name lips wrote:Seeing stat blocks seems inconsistent. Our only example of what they look like comes from the Klog entry on the 3d glasses, with a picture of Bogroll and his stats. You obviously can't use them to spot hidden or veiled units, but once you spot them, do little stat blocks suddenly appear?

I was arguing a week or two ago that it was impossible to lie about who you are, since your name shows up on the stat block. But somebody pointed out that there are many examples of people not knowing about people they see, like Jillian being confronted by a scouting party who wanted to know her name and side.

But there are also instances where people casually observe other units and seem to know what level they are.

Maybe you automatically can see stats for units on your own Side, but not others. Maybe you can choose to not see them. After all, if you're in a battle with thousands of units, your vision would get awfully cluttered if you had to look at thousands of stat blocks simultaneously. Maybe you have to look at a unit and deliberately "want" to see the stat block, and then you just become aware of it, as if it had always been there.


Another option is the box for friendly units shows name and stats and the box for enemies shows unit type and level?

Although this still has the problem of why Stanley can't remember anyone's name...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby the_tick_rules » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:17 pm

So the ruler is a total pawn. I guess she could order the hippie disbanded, but then she'd miss her flower fix huh? Hey the kill word was pretty neat.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Smoker » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:01 pm

I think the "box" visualisation might be a bit off.

I believe it was Wanda who commented on the natural signamancy of the portals: there are no actual written signs or emblems or anything else that we would use to identify a side, but there's something about them that the Erfworldese can decode naturally. Likewise Jillian has noted city names and levels just by observing the city - which appears to be the same process.

So when looking at a unit (or city or portal etc), I suspect there's some natural signamancy at play. I suppose it's like us making a judgement on a person based on their appearance ("He looks like he knows what he's doing..") but so accurate that it has a number, and everybody has exactly the same perception.

Since that's completely alien to us - two people looking at the same subject are likely to give it wildly different appraisals - the glasses gave Parson a digitalised representation of (enhanced) natural signamancy, rather than the ability itself.

So being able to see the unit or city is just as important for decoding stats as it is for identifying its colour (for example).

The interesting thing here is that native Erfworlders can decode the names of cities but not people. It does make sense though, as people are far more complex entities than cities. So this is the theory I'm operating on until proven otherwise.
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