New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Exate » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:06 pm

0beron wrote:Here's the thing Water: We have basically 2 kinds of units, grunts and valuable targets. Once the enemy decides they want to kill a grunt, it won't survive more than a round unless you step in with strong healing at just the right moment.
This will (hopefully) change with the incoming update on the stacking/leadership rules, which will hopefully move combat away from the "target every unit with exactly enough attacks to croak it, and no other attacks" paradigm and toward something more chaotic, with units auto-targeting as best they can most of the time. Regeneration would be much more useful if focused fire was not the battlefield standard.

MarbitChow wrote:Based on Junetta's and Coil's interactions alone, I could see them eventually coming into conflict. She should be able to fight a shockamancer without learning shockamancy.
She can fight him politically, she can support like-minded allies, she can learn spells from any school she pleases and use those... but if what she wants is to cast a spell that makes his Hits go down, no mucking about with intermediate effects and no questions asked, that's Shockamancy. There are ways for other schools to achieve the same sort of effect, sure- Dollamancy can make offensive items, Thinkamancy probably has mind blast spells, Dirtamancy can lay traps- but point-and-kill damage dealing is what Shockamancy does. Let's not muddy the waters by giving other schools its signature ability without careful consideration and making it, at minimum, several times as costly or much less convenient to pull off.

More than that, in a way giving a wide variety of abilities to a school marginalizes that own school's key flavor. So what if a healomancer can't kill a shockamancer in a stand-up engagement? We're not all popped equal. A healomancer has their own talents and should learn to leverage them, because if they try to fight the blaster class head-on they're so stupid that they deserve to be the ashy smear they'll quickly become. Make the schools specialized, make them very potent at their highest levels to reward casters who take advantage of that specialization, and don't sweat the fact that a screwdriver can't competently do a wrench's job.

MarbitChow wrote:Based on my stated goals of additional flexibility for all units, I'm also considering making the "Attack Modifiers" free to all melee (edit: Non-caster; I was thinking 'martial' and wrote melee) units, and allowing as many of them to be used as the unit has levels - so Mighty Blow x4 OR Mighty Blow X2 plus Coordinate X2, etc.
I don't really have a problem with this. It will make massed infantry much, much more dangerous, and in particular massed archers- a group of nine level one Archers will be able to take out even some of the game's hardest targets without serious difficulty, if you do this. Even now attack modifiers make the idea that attacks bounce off high-defense units one of questionable reliability; this change will be its death knell for any engagement with decent organization and more than a handful of troops.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:17 pm

As BLAND alluded to, I asked him by PM what he thought of the damage-dealing Healomancy - given his concerns with Shockamancy I thought he'd want to hear about the potential for Triage to start blasting away at enemy casters. Both the arguments for and against Malpractice and its like resonate with me, so I'm somewhat on the fence about them. I do agree that the juice cost as is is probably too low.

On the topic of juice, is there a listing of Negative Status Effects anywhere? The juice costs for eliminating them seem pretty high, but I don't actually know an example and how a unit would get one.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:37 pm

From the "Status Effects" section of the rules, 1st page of this thread:

Immobilized: Immobilized units lose any delayed Moves, and do not regain their Move each phase while Immobilized. Immobilized units defense cannot receive bonuses to their Defense, and receive a -2 Immobilization Penalty while Immobilized.
Incapacitated: Incapacitated units lose any delayed Moves and Actions, and do not regain their Move and Action each phase while incapacitated. Incapacitated units have a 0 Defense, which cannot be modified. Wards and Negation effects still work normally on incapacitated units.
Stun: Stunned units lose their next Move and Action. If unit is currently delaying a Move and/or an Action, unit loses those instead. (So a unit delaying an action when stunned loses their current action and their next Move, but can use an Action on their next Phase.) Constructs and Uncroaked are immune to Stun.
Calm: Unit automatically delays their Action, although they can still Move. Any attack against a Calm unit breaks the Calm and allows them to immediately respond, even if the attack has no effect or is negated. Any adjacent unit can awaken a Calm unit by spending an Action. Unless otherwise noted, Calm targets that are not Constructs or Uncroaked will surrender if all units on their side are Calm, Incapacitated, or croaked.

(Stacked is also in there; it's not really a status effect that can be removed, so it will have to be relocated.)
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:54 pm

Exate wrote:Even now attack modifiers make the idea that attacks bounce off high-defense units one of questionable reliability; this change will be its death knell for any engagement with decent organization and more than a handful of troops.

Well, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. It certainly is more consistant with how stuff works in stupidworld. But still, it might be kind of a paradigm shift for the game.


Hm, ok on the matter of Foolamancy...

I've seen only one more distinct effect, for a total of five: changing a unit's appearance, making a unit disappear entirely, creating an illusionary unit, creating illusionary terrain, and conjuring concealing fog. Let's call them "Baffle", "Cloak", "Phantasm", "Mirage" and "Shroud".

All possible spells can be considered a combination of these four effects. For instance, a Displacement can be considered a Cloak/Phantasm combination. Veiling a unit as a tree would be Baffle/Mirage combination.

I only see the need for one "must be purchaced" modifier right now, although we might find the need for a second... This one is "Agression", but even then it only really needs to be a bought thing in specific cases, specifically for Cloaking.


So, that's 5-6 AP worth of stuff there (depending upon what's worth 0.5 or 1 AP). More if you add on some extra skills that I personally would never use, such as multi-turn veiling. That should be plenty.

Now, to the specifics...
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:59 pm

I simplified the wording a bit since there was some redundancy and poor wording.
Immobilized: Immobilized units lose any delayed Moves, and do not regain their Move each phase. Immobilized units take a -2 Immobilization Penalty, and cannot receive bonuses to Defense.

Incapacitated: Incapacitated units lose all Moves and Actions, and do not regain these while incapacitated. Incapacitated units have a Defense of 0, which cannot be modified. Other spells may effect the target normally.

Stun: Stunned units lose the next Move and Action they could take. Constructs and Uncroaked are immune to Stun.

Calm: Unit automatically delays their Action, although they can still Move. Any attack against a Calm unit breaks the Calm and allows them to immediately act, even if the attack has no effect or is negated. Any adjacent unit can awaken a Calm unit by spending an Action. Unless otherwise noted, Calm targets that are not Constructs or Uncroaked will surrender if all units on their side are Calm, Incapacitated, or croaked.

Also, based on the surrender effect, should Constructs and Uncroaked be immune to Calm in the first place?
EDIT: I just recalled that Olive's Calm worked on Uncroaked. So, should Constructs be immune then?
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:59 pm

MarbitChow wrote:From the "Status Effects" section of the rules, 1st page of this thread:

Immobilized: Immobilized units lose any delayed Moves, and do not regain their Move each phase while Immobilized. Immobilized units defense cannot receive bonuses to their Defense, and receive a -2 Immobilization Penalty while Immobilized.
Incapacitated: Incapacitated units lose any delayed Moves and Actions, and do not regain their Move and Action each phase while incapacitated. Incapacitated units have a 0 Defense, which cannot be modified. Wards and Negation effects still work normally on incapacitated units.
Stun: Stunned units lose their next Move and Action. If unit is currently delaying a Move and/or an Action, unit loses those instead. (So a unit delaying an action when stunned loses their current action and their next Move, but can use an Action on their next Phase.) Constructs and Uncroaked are immune to Stun.
Calm: Unit automatically delays their Action, although they can still Move. Any attack against a Calm unit breaks the Calm and allows them to immediately respond, even if the attack has no effect or is negated. Any adjacent unit can awaken a Calm unit by spending an Action. Unless otherwise noted, Calm targets that are not Constructs or Uncroaked will surrender if all units on their side are Calm, Incapacitated, or croaked.

(Stacked is also in there; it's not really a status effect that can be removed, so it will have to be relocated.)


So how would a unit get immobilized/incapacitated? And is Incapacitation, unlike the in-comic version, not curable by simple healing? (Right now I don't see why removing, say, Stun or Calm, is worth 40 Hits' worth of healing in terms of juice)
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:12 pm

Nothing has any prerequisites other than Baffle unless noted.

Baffle:
1 Juice/target
1 AP (starting spell)
Can change any visible stat on a unit except for spell/status effects such as Ward or Stunned.
Default Duration: 1 Turn.
Specific Modifiers:
Glamour: (x3)
Does not automatically dispel when the unit attacks, and can hide/fake status conditions (although this must be done at casting).

Phantasm:
2 Juice/target
1 AP
Creates an illusionary unit under the caster's control. This unit is takes the form of any "zed" unit size 1x1. This unit may not attack, and vanishes when it is Bull Rushed or dealt damage by any means.
Default Duration: 1 Turn.
Specific Modifiers:
Heraldry: (x{level+1})
Make the phantasm appear as a higher-level unit.
Perspective: (x{size})
Make the phantasm appear as a larger unit.

Cloak:
4 Juice/target
1 AP
Turns target invisible. Ends when the unit is dealt damage by any means, or if the unit attacks.
Default Duration: 3 Rounds.
Specific Modifiers:
Agression: (x3)
Allows the unit to attack without ending the spell. (Note: there should still be some rough indicater of where the unit is if it attacks, but more on that later...)
Durability: (+1)
Allows Cloak to last even when the unit takes damage.

Mirage:
2 Juice
0.5 AP
Creates an illusionary structure in the target square, possibly consealing what was previously there. Ends when an enemy unit ends movement adjacent. Friendly units may move in/through unaffected, but this will end the spell if done in the sight of an enemy unit.
Default Duration: 1 Turn.
Specific Modifiers:
Corporealness: (x4)
Does not end under the conditions listed above; instead, an enemy unit must deliberately attempt to move into or through the Mirage.

Shroud:
0.25 Juice/tile
0.5 AP
Creates a thick fog, smoke, or similar obstruction in the target hexes. Units that cannot be seen without tracing LOS into, through, or out of the Shrouded tiles (and not from a higher elevation) are represented as unidetified blobs to the enemy.
Default Duration: 1 Round.
Specific Modifiers:
Opacity: (x2)
Allows Shroud to completly block same-level LOS after two tiles.
Volume: (x2)
Allows units in the Shrouded hexes to be concealed from units at higher elevation.


Ok, there we go. It needs some work, perhaps, but I think this is a good start. (Specifically, Shroud needs some work; especially if it's going to add a defensive modifier as well.)
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:25 pm

Nnelg, please remember that Wounds are not stats, so whatever version of stat-masking spell ends up in the final version, the ability to alter the perception of woundedness will not be included in that grouping; it will be grouped with the other status effects. Status effects are things that vanish or reset at the start of the turn. Stats only change when a unit levels. I will have a revised version of foolamancy out before Sunday night. We've gone over this enough that I've got a pretty good idea of what it needs to do, and how it needs to fit into the rest of the rules. Using phrases like "any visible stat" is too vague for a rule set, and will not be included in the final version of the rules. The last iteration of the Foolamancy rules are pretty close to the style the final wording will have, although without as much complexity. I appreciate the effort and feedback, but I'll write up the 'final' final draft.

0beron wrote:Also, based on the surrender effect, should Constructs and Uncroaked be immune to Calm in the first place? EDIT: I just recalled that Olive's Calm worked on Uncroaked. So, should Constructs be immune then?
No, Constructs and Uncroaked aren't immune to Calm effects. They're simply unable to surrender if they are Calm.

WaterMonkey314 wrote:So how would a unit get immobilized/incapacitated? And is Incapacitation, unlike the in-comic version, not curable by simple healing? (Right now I don't see why removing, say, Stun or Calm, is worth 40 Hits' worth of healing in terms of juice)
Even in the comic version, there are multiple forms of Incapacitation. Having a dwagon pin you, for example.

Removing Stun restores an action to another unit (assuming they weren't delaying their actions when they were stunned), which, on the right unit, might mean stunning 3 of the most powerful enemy units on the field that turn, before they can attack. Removing Calm is probably not worth using a spell for, though, since Triage could just shoot them awake and probably not risk hurting them too much (although their mount might negate that option), but it's an option if you've got the juice to spare, and no one is near enough to shake them out of their Calm.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:41 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Nnelg, please remember that Wounds are not stats, so whatever version of stat-masking spell ends up in the final version, the ability to alter the perception of woundedness will not be included in that grouping; it will be grouped with the other status effects.

Fine then, specifically include it with "all visible stats". It isn't that big of a deal, really.

The point is that Baffle makes units look different. That includes how damaged they are. Of course, that doesn't mean anyone's stupid enough to think it's actual healing if I do it in their LOS... But I see no problem if it's not.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:03 am

MarbitChow wrote:Nnelg, please remember that Wounds are not stats, so whatever version of stat-masking spell ends up in the final version, the ability to alter the perception of woundedness will not be included in that grouping; it will be grouped with the other status effects. Status effects are things that vanish or reset at the start of the turn. Stats only change when a unit levels.

Hm... I understand the difference, but still must ask why both can't be included under a single spell?

I don't see any thematic reason for it, nor one of game balance.


In fact, I can provide a counterexample as to why being able to adjust visible wounds is necessary for the proper functioning of that spell:

Say I wanted to veil Whump as Tod, but Tod had been hit by an arrow earlier. If I can't adjust visible wounds at the same time as other stats, then it'll be immediately obvious that Not-Tod is an illusion.
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