Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:57 am

Shai_hulud wrote:I would like to see a prequel about Charlie.

I would as well, but somehow I don't think we'll get it because there is still info being withheld from us about him in the main comic. Getting his prequel will spoil the surprises that are awaiting us about him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:04 am

I have also been thinking about decrypted barbarians, specifically decrypted barbarian common infantry. What happens when a decrypted non-commander unit becomes a barbarian? We know that common infantry disbands when their side falls and they are not with a commander (or a ruler?). We don't know exactly why. We know that rulers and casters don't disband when turned to barbarians.... Do we know whether warlords disband when their side falls or not?

So anyways, what if decrypted zero upkeep common infantry turned barbarian? Do they disband? If not, what could they do? I'd love to see this happen in comic.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:14 am

Thoke wrote:[Stuff on Barbarians]
You're a little off Thoke, we do actually know all the details about becoming barbarian when a side falls.

If a Side loses their Ruler without an Heir:
~All Cities go neutral, leaving all units in them frozen and waiting to be slaughtered or captured/turned (they don't go Barbarian)
~All units outside cities disband, period, no exceptions
~Casters will survive as Barbarian if they are in the MK specifically, nowhere else

If the Side loses their Ruler and cities, but HAS an Heir:
~The above happens, but with one exception: Units stacked with that Heir survive, as Barbarian.

If the Side loses their Ruler but still has cities, then presumably nothing changes
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:21 am

Thanks bringing the specific rules up, I had totally forgot most of them!

...Yet we still don't know if there's another mechanic behind the "all field units disband when ruler without an heir dies" rule. Maybe it's because they are "attached" to a side and therefore disband because of that. I don't know if decrypted really are as attached to Gobwin Knob as they are to Wanda. Decrypted may be an unique case concerning this and Wanda might be too, being a former ruler.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:24 am

Thoke wrote:I don't know if decrypted really are as attached to Gobwin Knob as they are to Wanda.

They're definitely GK units, Stanley has a Ruler's Natural Thinkamancy over them. This was confirmed during the summer Updates, when he returned to GK city and from the air thought something to the effect of "They were his units, that he was sure of. But he didn't like it"
So I'd wager that if Stanly died right now, any Decrypted that are outside cities would still disband.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:53 pm

0beron wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:I would like to see a prequel about Charlie.

I would as well, but somehow I don't think we'll get it because there is still info being withheld from us about him in the main comic. Getting his prequel will spoil the surprises that are awaiting us about him.

Charlie is much better as an enigma. The less I know about him, the better. He could be neutral, he could be evil, he could just be a corporate bastard. His backstory would explain too much.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:54 pm

bladestorm wrote:Charlie is much better as an enigma. The less I know about him, the better. He could be neutral, he could be evil, he could just be a corporate bastard. His backstory would explain too much.

I'd like to know his backstory EVENTUALLY, but for the moment I agree with you. It's something I want to learn after the fact.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:57 pm

0beron wrote:They're definitely GK units, Stanley has a Ruler's Natural Thinkamancy over them. This was confirmed during the summer Updates, when he returned to GK city and from the air thought something to the effect of "They were his units, that he was sure of. But he didn't like it"
So I'd wager that if Stanly died right now, any Decrypted that are outside cities would still disband.


They are definetely GK units right now, but what would happen If Wanda turned? Are you saying that if Wanda turned, it wouldn't change the loyalty of the decrypted at all?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:05 pm

Ooooooh, well that is a totally different consideration, I though we were still discussing the whole "what happens when Ruler croaks" scenario. Yeah, if Wanda turns we have nooooo idea what will happen. Hopefully we will see that soon in Book 0, since I suspect Wanda might turn from Haffaton. If this occurs, we will get to see if her Uncroaked turned with her or remained with Haffaton.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:34 pm

I was still discussing it (at least to some extent). I equated that decrypted prefer Wanda over GK (that's why the "attachment" speculation) and aren't therefore disbanded when GK falls provided Wanda stays alive.
Actually... we don't know if Wanda is able to stay alive even if Stanley croaks... maybe she will automatically switch to Ruler of Goodminton/barbarian?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:41 pm

0beron wrote:Ooooooh, well that is a totally different consideration, I though we were still discussing the whole "what happens when Ruler croaks" scenario. Yeah, if Wanda turns we have nooooo idea what will happen. Hopefully we will see that soon in Book 0, since I suspect Wanda might turn from Haffaton. If this occurs, we will get to see if her Uncroaked turned with her or remained with Haffaton.

Or a different scenario... a what-if perhaps. When Jillian went barbarian, she had a small retinue with her, and all of those got wiped out by sand witches and man witches. What would have happened if the sole survivor of that battle had been a lowly stabber or piker instead of Jillian? A single unit without leadership stranded in the middle of the desert.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:43 pm

Thoke wrote:Actually... we don't know if Wanda is able to stay alive even if Stanley croaks... maybe she will automatically switch to Ruler of Goodminton/barbarian?
Nope, she is a full GK unit without Heir status, so unless she was in the MK at the time, she'd disband if Stanley croaked. Because they are also GK units, I assume the Decrypted would also disband because even if she survived, Wanda would be a Barbarian, not a new Side.

bladestorm wrote:When Jillian went barbarian, she had a small retinue with her, and all of those got wiped out by sand witches and man witches. What would have happened if the sole survivor of that battle had been a lowly stabber or piker instead of Jillian? A single unit without leadership stranded in the middle of the desert.
Without Leadership to hold a purse, it would disband on the next turn due to lack of upkeep.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:57 pm

0beron wrote:Nope, she is a full GK unit without Heir status, so unless she was in the MK at the time, she'd disband if Stanley croaked.
Yes, she doesn't have a status of "Heir of Gobwin Knob", that's for sure. Nothing else is, though.

Because they are also GK units, I assume the Decrypted would also disband because even if she survived, Wanda would be a Barbarian, not a new Side.
I assume they would be barbarian, because Wanda would be. But either speculation is as valid as we don't have any evidence either way :p
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby multilis » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:17 pm

Nope, she is a full GK unit without Heir status, so unless she was in the MK at the time, she'd disband if Stanley croaked. Because they are also GK units, I assume the Decrypted would also disband because even if she survived, Wanda would be a Barbarian, not a new Side.


She was given the "Heir" status long ago at great cost to Goodminton treasury. So there is still a chance that such a promotion works as promoting a unit to heavy status, and while she is not heir of GK, she would end be barbarian (of Goodminton) as result. We simply don't know how the status works.

1) She could have lost heir status with turning.
2) She may keep heir status forever.

3) She may keep heir status until someone reestablishes goodminton as capital of different side.
4) If someone else reestablishes Goodminton as capital of new kingdom, she then resumes being an heir of that different side.

All depends on where the status of heir is stored, and whether it can be erased. A joy of some games is they can even have bugs/surprises related to this sort of status thing in unusual situations.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:04 pm

It could also be that because Wanda was once a ruler (had all the ruler senses and such) instead of only being an heir never experiencing being a ruler, she can maintain her Ruler of Goodminton status even though having turned to another side. So, according to this theory, she is always her own ruler despite which side she's formally turned to. If this is the case then it means Wanda could turn at will, even to "barbarian/ruler of her own side" status.

EDIT: I think Stanley can still disband her at will. I don't think an unit can be a part of a side and not under their ruler's influence.
Last edited by Thoke on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:26 pm

Heirship is a function of the Side, not the Unit. Wanda is a GK unit so she will be treated as such and obey the relevant mechanics. We have a close precedent with the Hobgobwins. When they croaked, they lost tribal affiliation and once they Decrypted counted as GK units. Because you are Heir to a specific side it should function the same.
If any of the alternatives you suggested were possible, the Erflings would know it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:29 pm

0beron wrote:Heirship is a function of the Side, not the Unit.

We have a close precedent with the Hobgobwins. When they croaked, they lost tribal affiliation and once they Decrypted counted as GK units. Because you are Heir to a specific side it should function the same.


I think yes and no. Heirs can rebuild their side (does it have to be their former one by the way?), but... If heirship is a function of a side, why do heirs not disband when their side falls? It can't be a side-specific function if it spares you from disbanding when your side ends. relevant link

Wanda is a GK unit so she will be treated as such and obey the relevant mechanics.


Yes she is and obeys until -if my theory is true- she decides to turn.

If any of the alternatives you suggested were possible, the Erflings would know it.


Except if it is exceptionally rare. And knowledge does seem to pass very seldomly (if ever) from side to side in Erfworld.
Last edited by Thoke on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:34 pm

Thoke wrote:If heirship is a function of a side, why do heirs not disband when their side falls? It can't be a side-specific function if it spares you from disbanding when your side ends.
Because the side DOESN'T fall if an heir exists. The current ruler expires, a new ruler is promoted immediately. The side continues uninterrupted.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby Thoke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:37 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Because the side DOESN'T fall if an heir exists. The current ruler expires, a new ruler is promoted immediately. The side continues uninterrupted.

I meant when their capital was taken.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 048

Postby effataigus » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:51 pm

Hmm, interesting point. Why did the units not specifically in Wanda's stack disappear when her father died? That smacked of the ruler-dying mechanic, but that doesn't fit with Marbitchow's interpretation of what happens when a ruler dies (an assumption I shared). It would seem that either:

1. A different set of "side falling" dominoes fall when a capital city is taken.
2. Marbit's and my assumptions about what happens when a ruler dies were wrong. Perhaps the promotion to Overlord/Ruler only happens after the un-overlord-stacked field units vanish. That would mean that Stanley's retaking of GK was especially impressive... since it would have been done with only the dwagons in his personal stack.
3. ?
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