Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Exate » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:20 pm

ETheBoyce wrote:Another mobility consideration is our Balrug; but what I think our initial focus should be is on capturing Armolad. That will, however be an easy task as it only really requires me and Junetta on Kitties, me to go in and stun them both, assuming they are alone, and her to then follow and space them both out.
Actually, I've been saying the same thing but I just realized that Armolad's mount has a whopping 24 overland move- enough that even after moving 8 alongside the infantry, she can retreat 16 hexes. Our Naughty Kitties won't be able to catch her; we'd have to use the Balrugs to reach her (and I'm not sure if those are in position for that at the moment) and risk having one of them shot down upon entering the hex, since as the move mechanics are described we can't land in the next hex over and march through on foot. Odds are pretty good that she'll make a clean getaway unless I'm missing something.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Werebiscuit » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:28 pm

Exate wrote: And they won't have been sending significant reinforcement toward Rainbow Springs from other cities, because up until we pissed them off they had to keep funneling their new-popped forces toward the front against the Ixians.

Don't get me wrong; I don't expect this to be easy, and the city's popped defenders plus any fast reinforcements will still be a nasty battle, but one that I think is winnable- for now. Things are only going to get harder from here on out, and if we wait an extra five or ten turns then that battle might not be something we can win anymore.

The only compelling argument I see for moving against Logan Run is that it's got a path to our capital, and the elves know it. That makes it a great location for them to launch a decapitating strike, and we will have to deal with it before they can effectively gather the forces to do so. However, on balance I think Rainbow Springs is a greater strategic threat to our position; it's simply put the single best city on the map for them to use as a mustering point. In my opinion, if we don't take Rainbow Springs before they have the opportunity to put it to use as such we will lose this war.


You make a good point Exate, with the fact that they will have been funnelling forces towards the Ixians, however those forces will now be backtracking towards rainbow springs as the best mustering point and by the time we get there will have had 5-6 turns ( from turn 8) to get there.
They will have had time to supply it from Scarlett Hills by foot, granted, not by much. And probably with fliers ( I believe they have the same 16 move as our imps) from the other cities. I'm pretty sure we can expect archers too as all of the units mentioned are useful in sieges and breaking them. Maybe, as you say, garrison units are less likely but I'd still expect 2 stacks of archers as it seems their favourite unit
We will have to spend an extra turn preparing unless we want Bill to be starting to uncroak archery for us on round 1 of the battle, and doing so under fire.
So even if we left on turn 10 it will be turn 14 at the earliest before we can enter battle.
We will need a force capable of taking on a minimum of 80 UP worth of production.
I'm not necessarily arguing against Rainbow springs...merely trying to be objective in working out what we'll have to face (in the absence of any definite info). so if we figure what we could pop in 5 turns at tenebris and work around that.

We will have 1 stack of archers and that's if we take both Comet and Cupid and Bill raises 6 skellie archers from the bodies.
We can also take the heck pups ( if we manage to save any).
Bill is a must and T.Coil and Tod but who gets the other 3 mounts ? Will, most probably but Yuri and Rolf are out leaving Brick most likely for his bodyguard.
Even with Vinny levelled I'm not sure we have enough mounted space to afford to take him and his golems so I'd argue for Triage with the new healer damage rules. That fills our 6 kitties.
It's very light on siege though so I'm not sure how we'll take Rainbow Springs even if we manage to get picks.

Still I'm not ruling it out. Can we request the balrug and get Yuri and Rolf there to break down the gates ? I don'tknow. Do we dispense with the heavies and try to kill everything and then have Cupid land in the garrison ? Another possibility. But we'll have to think it through is all I'm saying at this time.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:35 pm

Werebiscuit wrote:Even with Vinny levelled I'm not sure we have enough mounted space to afford to take him and his golems.

That's fine, I WANT to be left behind with my golems so I can powerlevel using wild encounters.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby tigerusthegreat » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:39 pm

Are there rules for upkeep and I'm just not seeing them? I've skimmed the rules thread, but so far it seems that its just a production game, not the production vs upkeep game. If anyone can point me to those rules i'd appreciate it.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Nnelg » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:06 pm

Exate wrote:Actually, I've been saying the same thing but I just realized that Armolad's mount has a whopping 24 overland move- enough that even after moving 8 alongside the infantry, she can retreat 16 hexes. Our Naughty Kitties won't be able to catch her; we'd have to use the Balrugs to reach her (and I'm not sure if those are in position for that at the moment) and risk having one of them shot down upon entering the hex, since as the move mechanics are described we can't land in the next hex over and march through on foot. Odds are pretty good that she'll make a clean getaway unless I'm missing something.

You could always try setting up an ambush. And even with 24 move, unless Armolad is headed towards Logan's Run you'll have two turns to catch up. (Although, there'll likely be a guard for the second turn...)

I think perhaps we shouldn't risk overextending ourselves too much, and instead probe more conservatively. Sure, we can (and perhaps should) launch a lightning raid on one of the nearby cities using Kitties, but not with the intent to take it... That would be nice, but the goal should be to croak units and keep the enemy on the defensive. Best-case scenario (short of taking the garrison) is that the elves rush in reinforcements to where we strike, while our army marches somewhere else.

Either way though, taking time to consolidate might not be a bad thing. We could use to time to run some random encounters for exp, while we build up our forces. The only problem is that the elves will want to retake the offensive after such a reeling defeat, and so even if we don't advance we can expect all available enemy forces bringing the battle to us anyways.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby tigerusthegreat » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:19 pm

Nnelg wrote:
Exate wrote:Actually, I've been saying the same thing but I just realized that Armolad's mount has a whopping 24 overland move- enough that even after moving 8 alongside the infantry, she can retreat 16 hexes. Our Naughty Kitties won't be able to catch her; we'd have to use the Balrugs to reach her (and I'm not sure if those are in position for that at the moment) and risk having one of them shot down upon entering the hex, since as the move mechanics are described we can't land in the next hex over and march through on foot. Odds are pretty good that she'll make a clean getaway unless I'm missing something.

You could always try setting up an ambush. And even with 24 move, unless Armolad is headed towards Logan's Run you'll have two turns to catch up. (Although, there'll likely be a guard for the second turn...)

I think perhaps we shouldn't risk overextending ourselves too much, and instead probe more conservatively. Sure, we can (and perhaps should) launch a lightning raid on one of the nearby cities using Kitties, but not with the intent to take it... That would be nice, but the goal should be to croak units and keep the enemy on the defensive. Best-case scenario (short of taking the garrison) is that the elves rush in reinforcements to where we strike, while our army marches somewhere else.

Either way though, taking time to consolidate might not be a bad thing. We could use to time to run some random encounters for exp, while we build up our forces. The only problem is that the elves will want to retake the offensive after such a reeling defeat, and so even if we don't advance we can expect all available enemy forces bringing the battle to us anyways.


If that's the case, maybe a good defensive city wall and towers fully charged with spells might be a good welcoming gift for them.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Nnelg » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:21 pm

tigerusthegreat wrote:If that's the case, maybe a good defensive city wall and towers fully charged with spells might be a good welcoming gift for them.

No, it's far to early to go for a war of attrition. The enemy will simply overpower us. If we were to stop advancing, it would only be for a few turns at the most; and even then only to get ready for the next attack.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Lord of Monies » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:25 pm

0beron wrote:
Werebiscuit wrote:Even with Vinny levelled I'm not sure we have enough mounted space to afford to take him and his golems.

That's fine, I WANT to be left behind with my golems so I can powerlevel using wild encounters.


Being in pretty much the exact same scenario as you, I'll be happy to stay behind and be your bodyguard if you want. You probably won't need it, what with your golems and all, but eh, you never know.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:28 pm

tigerusthegreat wrote:Are there rules for upkeep and I'm just not seeing them? I've skimmed the rules thread, but so far it seems that its just a production game, not the production vs upkeep game. If anyone can point me to those rules i'd appreciate it.
It's referenced in passing in the 2nd post in the Reference thread, after Turn 9's income. Upkeep is currently approx. 5 shmuckers / UP / turn for base units. Higher-level units have not yet been determined. I've just been using a 'fudge factor' for low-level units so far. Since I haven't determined what units (exactly) are defending Tenebris currently, nor what the upkeep for the PCs are, I only needed to figure out how popping new units each turn impacted income.

It will probably be a "slightly more than linear" increase for units above level 1, but I haven't really bothered to work out the details yet; just that the treasure is "really low" right now - in a couple of turns, you'll barely have enough to upgrade a city from Level 2 to 3, and you can't afford to upgrade a 3 to a 4.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:27 pm

Lord of Monies wrote:Being in pretty much the exact same scenario as [Vinny], I'll be happy to stay behind and be [his] bodyguard if you want. You probably won't need it, what with your golems and all, but eh, you never know.

It's a possibility. We obviously want to have as few living units as possible in my group, but we'll discuss the particulars when the time comes. It depends on what we have left after this battle
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:14 am

Briefly skimming, I noticed that someone mentioned Will getting a mount.

Will can't get a mount. Will is heavy. The only mount Will can get (and Will WILL get) is that of Romana, the CWL of the Elves, after an epic archery duel. And it will be to ride into the sunset with her to convince her of the vitality and righteousness of Tenebris.

Until then, only 8 move, sorry. But if one of the lower-level casters wants having a high level crutch character around, you're welcome. Will's itching for some hunting.

Or, funnily enough, Ixian diplomacy. Coz the Tleilaxu are totally not cool.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Swodaems » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:54 am

Exate wrote:
ETheBoyce wrote:Another mobility consideration is our Balrug; but what I think our initial focus should be is on capturing Armolad. That will, however be an easy task as it only really requires me and Junetta on Kitties, me to go in and stun them both, assuming they are alone, and her to then follow and space them both out.
Actually, I've been saying the same thing but I just realized that Armolad's mount has a whopping 24 overland move- enough that even after moving 8 alongside the infantry, she can retreat 16 hexes. Our Naughty Kitties won't be able to catch her; we'd have to use the Balrugs to reach her (and I'm not sure if those are in position for that at the moment) and risk having one of them shot down upon entering the hex, since as the move mechanics are described we can't land in the next hex over and march through on foot. Odds are pretty good that she'll make a clean getaway unless I'm missing something.


We will have a few ways of catching up to Armolad. (It should be noted that units can't ride a mount without using up their own move. We can't have a mount carry a <16 movement unit to one hex away from armolad, and then have that <16 move unit move into the hex by itself.)

The Balrug is currently in hex. It has 40 move and could make it to Armolad's hex and back. It is capable of carrying 4 non mount units, so we would have room for 3 on it if we want to use it to bring Armolad back.

The naughty kitties should gain a level after this fight. After this fight, the swift ability is getting added to the game. "[Requires Mount] Swift (0.5 AP): Mount gains +2{+2} Move. Can be purchased more than once." If they buy the ability twice, they'll have enough move to catch up to Armolad.

Fliers start with 12 move and gain 2 per level. Cupid currently has 18 move to use. He is the only PC that can enter the hex without using a balrug or kitty. (He can use the Balrug to return to the city.)

-------
Whatever we send is going to have to be able to deal with Armolad and Amandaria. They will have Armolad's +5 leadership and +1 from dance-fighting. They were also in hex for 3 of the alt elf deaths and thus have +6/+3 bonuses to Com/Def.

For reference, their stats:
Armolad - Archer {Level 5} [ 11 Combat / 11 Defense / 34 Hits. Fire, Quick-shot. Special: Leadership, Improved Leadership, Dance Fighting, Beefy] { Ward-16 }
Amandaria : Fryahovar {Level 3} [ 18 Combat / 20 Defense / 60 Hits. 14 {24} Move. Strike. Special : Beast, Heavy, Mount, Mighty Blow x2, Dance Fighting ] { Ward-16 }

(If Amandaria does nothing but dodge, she will have a spectacular 39 def. Armolad will be making 2 23-Com fire attacks every time she gets an action.)

Sending units in on the Balrug is a no-go if we can't find a way to protect it from Armolad's fire. (MarbitChow, how much move does a Brickbat swarm have? Could a swarm ride the Balrug? The Balrug appears to be a plus-sized unit. Would we need more than one swarm to screen it? Would a cloak from Vinny work on the Balrug?)

Using Vinny and Junetta to deal with the pair is definately the way to go. We can capture both of them alive. Problem is that we'll have to leave at least one unit in the hex for the turn if we enter using a Kitty or Kitties. The elves will know that we have hit Armolad and may be able to hit us.
-------
If we wanted to spend the night in Armolad's hex, we have a couple options for bringing in additional units to act as defense.

Via shenanigans, we can use the balrug to ferry in up to 12 units. We get 4 in the inital trip (Balrug move= 40-16=24), then we get another 4 by picking up units that walk 8 hexes away from the city (Balrug move= 24-16=8), then we get another 4 by picking up units that get dropped 12 hexes away from the city by Kitty (Balrug move= 8-8=0). (We don't have enough kitties to pull off this last trick more than once.)

MarbitChow, if we capture Amandaria alive, can we make her do a forced march back to the city? If so, would she be capable of carrying one of our units?
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:15 am

Swodaems wrote:The naughty kitties should gain a level after this fight. After this fight, the swift ability is getting added to the game.
Do not count on "new rules" abilities until after this scenario is COMPLETELY resolved - meaning that Armolad is either captured or has escaped. The new rules will be in place once the the New Batch joins you, but the exact timing has not yet been determined.

Swodaems wrote:MarbitChow, how much move does a Brickbat swarm have? Could a swarm ride the Balrug? The Balrug appears to be a plus-sized unit. Would we need more than one swarm to screen it? Would a cloak from Vinny work on the Balrug?
Brickabats have 8 {8} Move. A swarm could ride the Balrug, and could screen the Balrug and any units on the Balrug simultaneously while doing so. Brickabats can screen plus-sized units just as well as regular-sized. The Balrug (and all Beasts / Inhuman units) cannot wear any equipment.

Swodaems wrote:MarbitChow, if we capture Amandaria alive, can we make her do a forced march back to the city? If so, would she be capable of carrying one of our units?
If you capture Amandaria, her move will be 0 at the time you capture her (since it will be Tenebris' turn). Once she's captured, she gains move on the start of the Tenebris turn. (Pulling another ruling out of thin air: ) Captured mounts are chained, just like normal captured units, but their chain acts as a leash. Other units can ride the chained mount, but in order to make use of the full move, a non-rider with equal or greater move must manage the leash.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:16 am

Swodaems wrote:Whatever we send is going to have to be able to deal with Armolad and Amandaria. They will have Armolad's +5 leadership and +1 from dance-fighting. They were also in hex for 3 of the alt elf deaths and thus have +6/+3 bonuses to Com/Def.

For reference, their stats:
Armolad - Archer {Level 5} [ 11 Combat / 11 Defense / 34 Hits. Fire, Quick-shot. Special: Leadership, Improved Leadership, Dance Fighting, Beefy] { Ward-16 }
Amandaria : Fryahovar {Level 3} [ 18 Combat / 20 Defense / 60 Hits. 14 {24} Move. Strike. Special : Beast, Heavy, Mount, Mighty Blow x2, Dance Fighting ] { Ward-16 }


Shouldn't those alt elf deaths expire at the end of the turn?
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Lord of Monies » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:12 am

No, they last one full turn, so they expire when the elves start their next turn.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Nnelg » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:20 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Other units can ride the chained mount, but in order to make use of the full move, a non-rider with equal or greater move must manage the leash.

Does that include flying units and/or unmounted mounts?


Oh, and just for the record: Nemo will be continuously operating in secret outside of battle. Meaning veiling himself (preferably as a non-distinct unit like a legionnaire or other footsoldier) at the start of each turn, avoiding undue amounts of attention, changing the veil if needed to avoid being followed, etc.

This shouldn't have much effect game-wise asides from him (hopefully) being harder for scouts to spot, and starting veiled for encounters in which he was elsewise "caught unawares" (not necessarily for planned battles, though; I'll personally specify his veiling status for those).
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby ETheBoyce » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:32 am

So we use Imps to scout Armolad, then send T Coil, Junetta and a Brickbat group to capture her; Then we execute my previous stun->groove plan.

Question: Can we turn her mount?

If the answer is no then I execute the beast and we all ride back to Dis City; If we can turn her mount then we will have to choose between leaving the Brickbats behind to bring back and turn her mount or me executing it.

This plan insures her speedy and damageless capture, unless she's got some guards of course <_<
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:21 am

Is her mount strategically more valuable than a Brickabat?
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:35 am

ETheBoyce wrote:Question: Can we turn her mount?
Yes. I think I mentioned this in another thread, but mounts are easier to turn than smarter units are - just assign a new rider, treat it well for 2 turns, and it's yours.
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Re: Darkness Rising - Strategy & Discussions

Postby Swodaems » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:21 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
ETheBoyce wrote:Question: Can we turn her mount?
Yes. I think I mentioned this in another thread, but mounts are easier to turn than smarter units are - just assign a new rider, treat it well for 2 turns, and it's yours.

Two turns from when we captured it? Or two turns including the turn we capture it? (IE. If we capture it on one turn, then spend the night with it in the hex, would we be able to ride it back home tame?)

My plan to bring them both in:

We're going to have to spend a night (and an elven turn) in the hex.

Tomorrow morning, after the archons depart, we use the imps to find Armolad and Amandaria.

We'll use the Balrug to carry in a small capture group. The capture group consists of T. Coil, Junetta, Tod, and a brickbat swarm. We use T. Coil to stun the pair, then we have Junetta do a pair of space outs. (We'll need to have Junetta do back to back space-outs using delayed actions to pull this off. Since she can't have delayed actions entering the hex, we enter the hex on phase 5 of round one and do nothing but delay until phase 5 of round 2. Armolad can use her actions to get off 4 shots at us, but the brickbat swarm takes all of them. T. Coil stuns Armolad and Amandaria at phase 5 of round 2, and then Junetta does space-outs at phases 4 and 3. )

We will need to be on the lookout for any other forces Armolad may have in the hex. We'll abandon the mission if things get hairy. Fortunately, we don't have to worry about Charlie's archons attacking us because of the non-aggression clause in the contract. (If they do attack us, they'll have to pay for it.)

After Armolad and Amandaria have surrendered, we bring in extra forces for protection. Cupid has the move to make it to our position. Using both their move and a balrug pick up at the 8 hex mark, we can bring in up to 4 8-move heavy units (Will, Rolf, Yuri, and one other). Lastly, we can use up the Balrug's last 8 move ferrying in 4 more regular sized units (these will have ridden 12 hexes on naughty kitties ) (I'm thinking Wanderous and 3 others, possibly zed archers that take well armed and dancefighting when they level).

After everyone has been ferried to the hex, we should have enough strength there to be relatively safe. We wait out the elves' turn and then bed down for the night.

On the turn after the capture, Tod will ride Amandaria back to Dis city with Cupid managing the leash. The Balrug will drop Wanderous and the other 3 riders back at their mounts and then returns to pick up T.Coil, Junetta, Armolad, and the Brickbat swarm before heading back to the city. The 4 heavies walk 8 hexes towards the city and the Balrug can ferry them back to Dis city from there.

We'll turn Amandaria ourselves and send Armolad back to Tenebris via Balrug. Creperum hires Rihanna again to turn her.
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