Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:23 pm

DoctorJest wrote:Unless we have good reason to believe Prince Ansom was a.) wrong
Jillian kept secrets from him. We know her name is Banhammer for instance, and he didn't know that per se.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:56 pm

Salem wrote:I'd postulate that it's rather possible. I dunno why but I get the feeling that Haffaton's MO might at least in some portion be disproportionate response. You take a city or kill field units they mass the entire army that their large size affords them and wipe you out. So the people that believe you to be a paper tiger still run the risk of being your only enemy. What it takes to beat them would be multiple sides taking multiple cities at once making them split their forces. So with a fear tactic like that they may have only ever cared about some cities and having a giant army.

They could be using the current GK MO of steamrolling through the various cities, executing all captives to produce more uncroaked for the army, and keep moving onward. So far, we've heard nothing about any production set in any of the other cities that GK now owns. Progrock had a small collection of living and decrypted units, but those all seemed to be basic infantry units.

Crippling strike would be to take out the Croakamancer. Croakamancy seems to be a double-edge sword. It makes it very easy to amass a HUGE army with very little upkeep, but that army decays quickly, and must be constantly replenished. To maintain your army size, you need to continually be expanding, taking over new cities, and raising their dead to replace the ones that will eventually decay away. It's not a magick class that has a lot of use outside of perpetual warfare.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Salem » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:25 pm

bladestorm wrote:Crippling strike would be to take out the Croakamancer. Croakamancy seems to be a double-edge sword. It makes it very easy to amass a HUGE army with very little upkeep, but that army decays quickly, and must be constantly replenished. To maintain your army size, you need to continually be expanding, taking over new cities, and raising their dead to replace the ones that will eventually decay away. It's not a magick class that has a lot of use outside of perpetual warfare.


I would say that's unfair to croakamancers. They're good in one shot battles ressing people as they die.

Calling it a two edged sword is kind of like calling a gun a two edged sword. It sucks when you run out of bullets, but having it never made you choose strategy or become dependant on it. It would be their own fault if they turned it into a bad thing. It's just not like having one makes you do things. There are many good long term strategies or short term ones. For example when waging a campaign against an enemy you can push push push with the uncroaked and let them wither and not grow depedant suffering less losses among living troops.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:12 pm

A couple minor updates/comments.
1) I found the basis for the wiki putting Jillian as at least 800 turns old. Early in Book 2, she makes a comment about her mercenary self from 800 turns ago. So this could mean when she was a FAQ mercenary, or a Barbarian mercenary, it's hard to tell.
2) Zamussels IS her name, I'm not sure why anyone is doubting that. Wanda's last name for example is Firebaugh even though her side name was Goodminton, and she is supposedly from the Crotan Tribe.
3) On an unrelated note....I just discovered that knocking down the Tower actually WAS Parson's original plan, after he found out Jillian was in the city but before Kingworld happened. Just as an fyi, cus I remember a lot of debate about that.

I am continuing to re-read the comic, picking out turn references and distances between cities so I can more accurately map them.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:35 pm

0beron wrote:2) Zamussels IS her name, I'm not sure why anyone is doubting that. Wanda's last name for example is Firebaugh even though her side name was Goodminton, and she is supposedly from the Crotan Tribe.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_31
“Princess Jillian Banhammer has returned to us, at our order and pleasure,” he said. His voice had a melodic overtone to it, like the accidental chords made by bullfrogs croaking at night. Following the King’s lead, the members of the Court folded their hands and nodded to her as one.

Her name isn't Zamussels, unless it's a middle name. Her last name is Banhammer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:30 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Her name isn't Zamussels, unless it's a middle name. Her last name is Banhammer.

Or King Banhammer is just a stuffy sod stuck up on ceremony. Both that and the middle name idea are both possible IMO.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Oberon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:55 pm

bladestorm wrote:
vintermann wrote: Some people decided to take offense at even the mention of that meme, and got into an argument with the author on Google+. Balder was angry, responded by closing comments on his Google+ announcement threads and said something to the effect of "just wait until you see the second part of that joke". I thought he had decided against it since Goodminton fell and nothing more was said of the bear, but here it is :D Evidence that Jillian coming upon Goodminton on her escape from Haffaton was planned for quite a while, so it's probably real important for the story.

So in a world that has no children, but everything is designed like it was made safe and for children, just how threatening would the bear be? Either it will have no targets at all, since everyone pops as an adult (with fully functioning adult parts), or EVERYthing will be a target and he's gonna make honeybadger look like a pansy.
Quiet, you. Don't be dragging logic into things. Just because this is a comic which has depicted BDSM, lesbian love, constant warfare, and the horrible deaths of thousands in a volcanic eruption, that's no reason not to get your panties in a bunch over the pedobear!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:59 pm

0beron wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Her name isn't Zamussels, unless it's a middle name. Her last name is Banhammer.

Or King Banhammer is just a stuffy sod stuck up on ceremony. Both that and the middle name idea are both possible IMO.

Or the king insists that her name be Banhammer, and adopt Faqian philosophy, but Jillian is so rebellious that she not only rejected her dad's stuffy ways, but also rejected his name and took the name Zamussels for herself. Her Dad's name is Banhammer, but her name is Zamussels. It's how she identifies herself, and may be an extension of Signamancy.

We'll find out when her heir pops and is called by their full name.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby name lips » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:13 am

Maybe if you are an heir you lose your last name when your side is destroyed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Keighvin1 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:06 am

Why would Jillian's last name be Banhammer? As far as I know, most monarchs go by first names, not last name.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:11 am

Keighvin1 wrote:Why would Jillian's last name be Banhammer? As far as I know, most monarchs go by first names, not last name.

In the tea ceremony update linked above, King Banhammer called her "Princess Jillian Banhammer". But it is quite possible that present-day Jillian is now just Queen Jillian, with no last name.

Banhammer is not the only example of a Ruler's single name being used as a "child's" last name. I don't think Wanda's father was ever noted as having a name other than Firebaugh.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Sixty » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:37 am

Well, I dunno if I would say knocking down the tower was the ORIGINAL plan considering Parson only changed the plan to that upon discovering FAQ's strong air presence, implying the tower rush wasn't the original plan that Jack was referring to (since the odds shot up upon changing the plan).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Whispri » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:27 am

Salem wrote:I'd postulate that it's rather possible. I dunno why but I get the feeling that Haffaton's MO might at least in some portion be disproportionate response. You take a city or kill field units they mass the entire army that their large size affords them and wipe you out. So the people that believe you to be a paper tiger still run the risk of being your only enemy. What it takes to beat them would be multiple sides taking multiple cities at once making them split their forces. So with a fear tactic like that they may have only ever cared about some cities and having a giant army.

Which is all well and good once Haffaton has become a large Empire, but in the time of the Croatan, Haffaton's Cities were filled with warriors and defended ferociously.

name lips wrote:Maybe if you are an heir you lose your last name when your side is destroyed.

Wanda didn't lose hers, ergo... That said, 'Jack' used to be Jack's title rather than his name. It's possible Zamussels became Jillian's name during her Barbarian stint.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Morni » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:37 am

bladestorm wrote:They could be using the current GK MO of steamrolling through the various cities, executing all captives to produce more uncroaked for the army, and keep moving onward. So far, we've heard nothing about any production set in any of the other cities that GK now owns. Progrock had a small collection of living and decrypted units, but those all seemed to be basic infantry units.


I forgot which update it was. But Sizemore leveled a few time for re-constructing city. So they could produce the proper type of units.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby hajo » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:57 am

Morni wrote:
bladestorm wrote:They could be using the current GK MO of steamrolling through the various cities, executing all captives to produce more uncroaked for the army, and keep moving onward. So far, we've heard nothing about any production set in any of the other cities that GK now owns. Progrock had a small collection of living and decrypted units, but those all seemed to be basic infantry units.


I forgot which update it was. But Sizemore leveled a few time for re-constructing city. So they could produce the proper type of units.

From this bit on Sizemore rebuilding GK's cities:
... rebuild on the ruins. This created a city that popped the same kinds of units the capital did: infantry and twolls for a Level One, plus spidews and warlords for a Level Two, and dwagons for a Level Three or more.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby DoctorJest » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:58 am

Whispri wrote:Wanda didn't lose hers, ergo... That said, 'Jack' used to be Jack's title rather than his name. It's possible Zamussels became Jillian's name during her Barbarian stint.


Names could be a form of signamancy, and thus mutable.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Salem » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:07 am

Whispri wrote:
Salem wrote:I'd postulate that it's rather possible. I dunno why but I get the feeling that Haffaton's MO might at least in some portion be disproportionate response. You take a city or kill field units they mass the entire army that their large size affords them and wipe you out. So the people that believe you to be a paper tiger still run the risk of being your only enemy. What it takes to beat them would be multiple sides taking multiple cities at once making them split their forces. So with a fear tactic like that they may have only ever cared about some cities and having a giant army.

Which is all well and good once Haffaton has become a large Empire, but in the time of the Croatan, Haffaton's Cities were filled with warriors and defended ferociously.


Aye, I didn't notice we were talking only about pre large empire haffaton. Though I do believe at least 1 of their cities was lightly defended because they could use hippiemancy to keep it safe. At least that's the impression I got from Wanda's plan to take it. That it was underdefended.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:07 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Keighvin1 wrote:Why would Jillian's last name be Banhammer? As far as I know, most monarchs go by first names, not last name.

In the tea ceremony update linked above, King Banhammer called her "Princess Jillian Banhammer". But it is quite possible that present-day Jillian is now just Queen Jillian, with no last name.

Banhammer is not the only example of a Ruler's single name being used as a "child's" last name. I don't think Wanda's father was ever noted as having a name other than Firebaugh.



Let's not forget that Jillian was often trying to maintain a smokescreen for FAQ presumably, Cammander Zamussels could be a "nom de guerre" use to put distance between her and any chance of connection to a "Banhammer". Who called her Zamussels ? Possibly only those hiring her ? Who called her Banhammer ? Presumably those connected to FAQ
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby name lips » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:47 pm

But when you look at a unit you see it's name (unless you're Parson, who needs to wear 3d glasses).

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg

So presumably you would be unable to hide your "real" name from anybody who looks at you.


edit:

I just noticed on that page, an interesting reference: "Wanda seems to resent the implication that she knows anything about troops or combat (though I think she does)."

We now know that she was a field commander who chose to ride out into direct combat instead of staying home like most casters. She has lots of direct combat experience. But she was reluctant to share this information with Parson, her Chief Warlord.

Wanda seems very good at keeping secrets, even when you would think Duty would compel her not to. She knew her new Chief Warlord needed more information about combat mechanics, she knew it would make him more effective, and she knew her side was in a dire position, and for some reason she was reluctant to share that information. Presumably Parson could have ordered her to share the information, but he didn't seem to know that yet. He was still politely asking people, unaware that they can't refuse a direct order unless they believe it's in the best interest of their side.

We know (or strongly suspect) that somehow Wanda will betray Haffaton. And we know that she betrayed Faq. She has her own agenda, and seems to have discovered how to exploit a loophole allowing her to directly betray her own side in order to pursue it. Nobody knows any unit's "loyalty" statistic, but could she somehow have no loyalty?

Could a unit's "free will" or capacity to disobey orders be related to loyalty, so that by having no loyalty she is completely free to ignore orders or obey them at her own discretion?

edit2: and fun clues about Wanda and Jillian's history. Man I didn't realize I'd forgotten so many hints: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038.jpg
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 047

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:11 pm

name lips wrote:But when you look at a unit you see it's name (unless you're Parson, who needs to wear 3d glasses).

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg

So presumably you would be unable to hide your "real" name from anybody who looks at you.


http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_27
The fat one pointed at something at the base of a large fir tree. As the wispy one bent to look, his companion tripped him with his staff and he fell on his face into the dirt and pine needles. Both of them started laughing, but the thin one looked up and saw.

"Oh, hey. Wait, man, look," he said, pointing and climbing to his feet.

"Ohhhh, wow," said the other, looking right up at Jillian in her saddle. "Hey, up there! Hey! Friend or foe?"

"Neither," called Jillian, trying to sound disinterested even with her heart pounding behind her armor. "Mercenaries. Just passing through."

The big one looked around, counting the units. "You got a lot of heavies. Who are you?"

"Mercenaries," she said again.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_28
"Welcome to our lands, strangers! We sometimes like to say that a stranger is a friend you haven't met yet!"

Jillian smiled back diplomatically and joked, "Really. Why only sometimes?"

"Oh!" said the warlord, looking momentarily perplexed. "I suppose because it's only true sometimes! Haha!"

Jillian chuckled, and a few of the troops on both sides did as well. A good start.

"I am Lord Christian Sidehug, of Haffaton," said the warlord, bowing slightly. "You may call me Chris, if you like. How may I address you, good Lady Warlord?"

And here is where it would get tricky. He'd be able to tell by looking at her that she was no barbarian. There had to be a treasury behind a force this large. He'd expect her to identify her side.

Also, her "Princess" title was dangerous. Royal sides were generally better known than non-Royals. Faq had hidden itself a thousand or more turns ago. The sides which had once known King Banhammer were far away or long gone. But Haffaton was very large and old, and it might have collected some commanders who still had memories from those distant places and times.

Jillian was used to evading questions about her identity, but never when the stakes were so high. Lying was an option, but it carried its own risks. What she wanted was to get out of here unmolested and anonymous. It was still Haffaton's turn, though; if this warlord thought she represented a threat or even a curiosity worth investigating in force, everything could unravel fast.

"You know, I think that 'Lady Warlord' has a nice ring to it," she said, trying to keep her tone lighthearted. "Why don't you stick with that?"

Chris' smile did not diminish, but turned a bit wry. "Cagey Lady Warlord! Very well. A person should be called what she wishes."
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