Book 2 - Text Updates 057

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:49 pm

Salem wrote:Considering your statements and your go-to of jesus I would say your conclusion suffers from being based on Judeo-Christian preconceptions.
It is very believable in a polytheistic conceptualization. Or if your diety is one of Strife. A diety who believes failure and suffering forge courage and strength. You lose a limb get over it adapt.

Take Krom for example, having Krom's gaze on you is actually a bad thing, he likes to make things tough.

I would agree this has Jack and Boop to do with anything, but our discussion has had a lot about getting out of your preconceptions, trying to see the world from other views. We're most of us judgemental and elitist so it can be hard to see things from another's view.

Okay... "We lost this football game because of Odin. He hates our team. It's all his fault." "But don't you worship Odin?" "Yeah, that's what sucks about this." "Wouldn't it be easier to blame, say, Loki?", "No, I gotta blame Odin. He's the one making my life suck."

But then that wouldn't be a quote from a comedy skit that was slamming Tebow, which was where I got the entire reference, since Tebow isn't obnoxiously vocal about Krom, Odin, or Loki. He does kinda remind me of Ansom, though. Ansom is capable of such things due to his Royal trait (better stats, faster learning, etc) and Titanic mandate, Tebow through his faith that he is more than happy to share. Thus, the whole reference back to the actual strip, rather than trying to delve into my own religious preconceptions, or fussing over the use of the word 'ever' since it can be proven wrong by a single incident.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby cheeseaholic » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:24 pm

Where's this idea that royals learn faster coming from? Did I miss something?

Likely I did I'm rather tired atm.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:53 pm

bladestorm wrote:
Salem wrote:Considering your statements and your go-to of jesus I would say your conclusion suffers from being based on Judeo-Christian preconceptions.
It is very believable in a polytheistic conceptualization. Or if your diety is one of Strife. A diety who believes failure and suffering forge courage and strength. You lose a limb get over it adapt.

Take Krom for example, having Krom's gaze on you is actually a bad thing, he likes to make things tough.

I would agree this has Jack and Boop to do with anything, but our discussion has had a lot about getting out of your preconceptions, trying to see the world from other views. We're most of us judgemental and elitist so it can be hard to see things from another's view.

Okay... "We lost this football game because of Odin. He hates our team. It's all his fault." "But don't you worship Odin?" "Yeah, that's what sucks about this." "Wouldn't it be easier to blame, say, Loki?", "No, I gotta blame Odin. He's the one making my life suck."

But then that wouldn't be a quote from a comedy skit that was slamming Tebow, which was where I got the entire reference, since Tebow isn't obnoxiously vocal about Krom, Odin, or Loki. He does kinda remind me of Ansom, though. Ansom is capable of such things due to his Royal trait (better stats, faster learning, etc) and Titanic mandate, Tebow through his faith that he is more than happy to share. Thus, the whole reference back to the actual strip, rather than trying to delve into my own religious preconceptions, or fussing over the use of the word 'ever' since it can be proven wrong by a single incident.


I think you missed the entire point of what I was saying and took it a bit out of context but you're right religion has nothing to do with it and it is muddying the waters.

Faith =/= Royal trait. Whether faith has an active effect on someone's life is debateable. I'm not sure if this is an intentional comparison. But the Royal trait has definite in game in world benefits. It's like the opposable thumbs trait.


Edit: I just kind of realized how important Signamancy is to this whole thing. Because of Signamancy (These aren't necessarily true but could be) you could use correlation for 100% a corelation that's as strong as causation. You're a short because you're a small person. You're attractive therefore morally superior. We could actually do a decent tall = moral save for Cubbins. Jack *Seems* relatively tall for an erfworlder, he seems also rather good hearted. Slately and stanley are small, Parson who cares deeply about life is larger than (Erf could have shrunk him maybe), Janet is that way to. These are probably not true. But appearance means something in erfworld. For bloody sakes, royalty literally COULD mean they're more morally superior. The question really is IF you are morally superior what do you do aboutit? I think the truth is we know to little about Erf. Things that people make judgements on there we might take for granted.

The point is we live in a world were certain claims are impossible to prove so our entire moral system and judgement system is based around it. We can only judge people by actions. Look at how bad a game of DnD can go because of detect evil. Now imagine this on a worldwide scale where you could tell almost everything about a person by the way they look or the stats you see. But hey the good news is that even in this world where being short and squat can mean something about you so far the color of your skin is meaningless.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Beeskee » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:14 am

cheeseaholic wrote:Where's this idea that royals learn faster coming from? Did I miss something?

Likely I did I'm rather tired atm.



For reference: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg

This is the comic that talks about how Royals have slightly stronger stats, and level faster.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Whispri » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:17 am

Beeskee wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Where's this idea that royals learn faster coming from? Did I miss something?

Likely I did I'm rather tired atm.

For reference: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg

This is the comic that talks about how Royals have slightly stronger stats, and level faster.

The trouble with that is, well how do we know that isn't just a bonus for being popped in a Side's Capital?

We can be certain that the children of Overlords are superior to Royalty in one respect: Designating them as heirs must be cheaper as Goodminton's treasury wasn't exactly full to the brim at the end.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Nueamin » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:10 am

Whispri wrote:We can be certain that the children of Overlords are superior to Royalty in one respect: Designating them as heirs must be cheaper as Goodminton's treasury wasn't exactly full to the brim at the end.


I love how extremely anecdotal evidence turns into a certainty. There isn't a shred of compelling evidence that this is the case. Yes Goodminton's treasury was dwindling, but to say they paid less to promote an heir based on that is very suspect. It is even crazier to assume that this was due to overlord vs royal heir. For all we know promoting an heir costs a multiple of the unit's cost, or based on how many cities the side owns, or how many purple pink pocadots the nearest parrot has.... I think only one of those examples is likely though I still believe they paid the same amount. There is no reason to suggest otherwise
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:40 am

Whispri wrote:
Beeskee wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Where's this idea that royals learn faster coming from? Did I miss something?

Likely I did I'm rather tired atm.

For reference: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg

This is the comic that talks about how Royals have slightly stronger stats, and level faster.

The trouble with that is, well how do we know that isn't just a bonus for being popped in a Side's Capital?

We can be certain that the children of Overlords are superior to Royalty in one respect: Designating them as heirs must be cheaper as Goodminton's treasury wasn't exactly full to the brim at the end.


And no mention about learning faster, just leveling faster. Which is nice, especially if you're a side that likes to have leadership to zerg rush things with weak units, but leveling isn't synonymous with knowledge. Or Intelligence.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby effataigus » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:41 am

Nueamin wrote:
Whispri wrote:We can be certain that the children of Overlords are superior to Royalty in one respect: Designating them as heirs must be cheaper as Goodminton's treasury wasn't exactly full to the brim at the end.


I love how extremely anecdotal evidence turns into a certainty. There isn't a shred of compelling evidence that this is the case. Yes Goodminton's treasury was dwindling, but to say they paid less to promote an heir based on that is very suspect. It is even crazier to assume that this was due to overlord vs royal heir. For all we know promoting an heir costs a multiple of the unit's cost, or based on how many cities the side owns, or how many purple pink pocadots the nearest parrot has.... I think only one of those examples is likely though I still believe they paid the same amount. There is no reason to suggest otherwise


My favorite is when these certainties combine to form a pristine-ly ludicrous epileptic twee... something so un-grounded in logic that the final product only resembles the comic upon which it was based due to the nouns it discusses.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby effataigus » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:44 am

Whispri wrote:
Beeskee wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Where's this idea that royals learn faster coming from? Did I miss something?

Likely I did I'm rather tired atm.

For reference: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg

This is the comic that talks about how Royals have slightly stronger stats, and level faster.

The trouble with that is, well how do we know that isn't just a bonus for being popped in a Side's Capital?


Because language?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:34 am

cheeseaholic wrote:And no mention about learning faster, just leveling faster. Which is nice, especially if you're a side that likes to have leadership to zerg rush things with weak units, but leveling isn't synonymous with knowledge. Or Intelligence.

Leveling faster comes from either having a lower xp amount required per level, or you gain more xp from doing whatever it is that you are doing. In most level based systems, gaining a level also gets you your attribute points and skill points to spend. This simulates the rate at which you learn. We don't have concrete evidence of any form of skills, skill points, attributes, or what the exact benefits are of being a higher level other than overall better performance, but we do have Artemis 'training' for a LOT of turns and getting better, rather than idling in her city and not advancing at all. There was some learning going on there. We also have no concrete evidence that learning a skill or gaining knowledge is distinctly separate from levels.

I've seen a lot of games that simulate slower learning with a negative xp mod, and faster learning with a positive xp mod. "Stupid" learn slower and level slower. "Smart" creatures learn faster and level faster. It fits in nicely with the concept that Royals are smarter, stronger, and more capable of leading than those of lesser station. Some systems even go so far as to apply an xp mod based upon the unit's intelligence score.

So, I take the ability to level faster as a faster learning process.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:28 am

The only comic that we have that combines training with intelligence is Duke Lacrosse having his men "drilled stupid".

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-27.png

This would seem to imply that combat training doesn't improve general mental faculties at all. Not exactly perfect evidence, but it's the only written in comic correlation between intelligence and training that we got. Of course you could also, say, look at characters and see if the higher levels seem smarter than the lower levels. Which seems to say that the higher levels do indeed get dumber. High levels we know of are Ansom, Ossamer, Caesar, Stanley, and Jillian. Mid levels Webinar, Captain Adam, Duke Lacrosse, Vinny, and the crazy redhead. Low levels we have Captain Archer, Wriggley, and the archers on the wall. That's discounting uknowns and special cases like Parson, Charlie, casters, and Count Topotato.

If anything the mid levels seem the smartest. The new units seem generally just lost, like the archers and Wanda when she was just popped. The higher level ones seem to be stuck in doing what they do (jillian smash, red burn, Ansom get everything in proper order). I suppose the ones that do something that usually works often enough survive to level up more.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Whispri » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:40 am

0beron wrote:^ This is why I'm DYING to see Jillian's Heir pop, so we might finally get confirmation that Casters can pop as Heirs too, just like when any Warlord pops.
Also why I'm curious to see confirmation of my suspicion that Olive now is/always was the Ruler of Haffaton.

If she was always the Ruler of Haffaton, that 'Olive as Wanda's Chief Caster' Prediction leads to some interesting questions.

That said, it would explain few things.

0beron wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Salem wrote:I doubt when Parson leveled he got smarter.
Parson has not leveled. He started at level 2.

Actually that is his Chief Warlord bonus, which suggests that he is a level 1 or even level 0, since the position of Chief Warlord increases your Leadership Score (I think)

Iirc, Parson's level (2) was given in the Unit list he recieved from one of his Stupid Meals.

That said he did a bit of fighting at Gobwin Knob, he croaked a Wiener-Rammer, might have scored the croaking blow on the Warlord who'd been riding said doggy and led the stacks that defeated the soldiers that Warlord was leading. If the fight in the courtyard was, for example, considered a series of small engagements rather than one large one, he may have gained quite a bit of experience there as well. So it's not impossible that he's levelled since arrival.

Nueamin wrote:
Whispri wrote:We can be certain that the children of Overlords are superior to Royalty in one respect: Designating them as heirs must be cheaper as Goodminton's treasury wasn't exactly full to the brim at the end.

I love how extremely anecdotal evidence turns into a certainty. There isn't a shred of compelling evidence that this is the case. Yes Goodminton's treasury was dwindling, but to say they paid less to promote an heir based on that is very suspect. It is even crazier to assume that this was due to overlord vs royal heir. For all we know promoting an heir costs a multiple of the unit's cost, or based on how many cities the side owns, or how many purple pink pocadots the nearest parrot has.... I think only one of those examples is likely though I still believe they paid the same amount. There is no reason to suggest otherwise
effataigus wrote:My favorite is when these certainties combine to form a pristine-ly ludicrous epileptic twee... something so un-grounded in logic that the final product only resembles the comic upon which it was based due to the nouns it discusses.

It's a pity neither of you bothered to check Book Zero before you rushed in sneering, because if you had you might have noticed this:

IPTSF Text 20 wrote:The same five of them now stepped out into the gray daylight and the chill breeze. This morning, Father had sent Delphie into the Magic Kingdom to buy the scroll Wanda now unrolled. It was a fairly hefty piece of magic, and it cost 18,000 Shmuckers, or close to a fifth of Goodminton's treasury. It was not offensive; she could cast it before Goodminton broke alliance. She hoped she would not fail.

And of course after that it's just maths, the Treasury must have been close to 90,000 before the scroll was bought and was reduced to just over 72,000 afterwards. And that is far less than half the sum required to designate a Prince.

There is simpy no way they can have doubled their money after that.

effataigus wrote:
Whispri wrote:
Beeskee wrote:For reference: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg

This is the comic that talks about how Royals have slightly stronger stats, and level faster.

The trouble with that is, well how do we know that isn't just a bonus for being popped in a Side's Capital?

Because language?

And when, pray tell, has Parson had the opportunity to meet a Warlord popped in the Capital of an Overlord? To our knowledge, the only living person on Erf who has met such a Warlord, would be the ever cagey Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:44 am

Whispri wrote:
0beron wrote:^ This is why I'm DYING to see Jillian's Heir pop, so we might finally get confirmation that Casters can pop as Heirs too, just like when any Warlord pops.
Also why I'm curious to see confirmation of my suspicion that Olive now is/always was the Ruler of Haffaton.

If she was always the Ruler of Haffaton, that 'Olive as Wanda's Chief Caster' Prediction leads to some interesting questions.
That said, it would explain few things.

That it would indeed. Olive might still be alive in the present day, and Wanda could form a new side with her as the chief caster.

Whispri wrote:Iirc, Parson's level (2) was given in the Unit list he recieved from one of his Stupid Meals.

Right you are, I checked it. I only remembered the "special" bit. Thanks!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Oberon » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:42 pm

Nueamin wrote:I love how extremely anecdotal evidence turns into a certainty.
You must be new here. ;)
Whispri wrote:That said [Parson] did a bit of fighting at Gobwin Knob, he croaked a Wiener-Rammer, might have scored the croaking blow on the Warlord who'd been riding said doggy and led the stacks that defeated the soldiers that Warlord was leading. If the fight in the courtyard was, for example, considered a series of small engagements rather than one large one, he may have gained quite a bit of experience there as well. So it's not impossible that he's levelled since arrival.
I used to think so as well, and for the exact same reasons. After all, Parson has seen a bit of action, and even leading should give...a leader...some experience. And then there was that whole "ordered the action which wiped out thousands of RCC units" thing, which some might assume would also convey some EXP to the originator of the concept and plan. Or so a person might think. After all, Fud leveled twice with just a few kills. But there was a strip which stated that Parson was still L2. It was when Ossomer was griping that the CWL was only L2, and Sylvia responded that Parson was Level Million.
Whispri wrote:It's a pity neither of you bothered to check Book Zero before you rushed in sneering [...]
C'mon now, rushing in sneering is just as time-honored a tradition here as is tree husbandry of the epileptic variety. But good on you for backing your supposition with some citations from the strip.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby effataigus » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:04 pm

Whispri wrote:It's a pity neither of you bothered to check Book Zero before you rushed in sneering, because if you had you might have noticed this:

IPTSF Text 20 wrote:The same five of them now stepped out into the gray daylight and the chill breeze. This morning, Father had sent Delphie into the Magic Kingdom to buy the scroll Wanda now unrolled. It was a fairly hefty piece of magic, and it cost 18,000 Shmuckers, or close to a fifth of Goodminton's treasury. It was not offensive; she could cast it before Goodminton broke alliance. She hoped she would not fail.

And of course after that it's just maths, the Treasury must have been close to 90,000 before the scroll was bought and was reduced to just over 72,000 afterwards. And that is far less than half the sum required to designate a Prince.

There is simpy no way they can have doubled their money after that.

I have several only vaguely related responses to this:

1. My post was rude, and for that I apologize. It does get under my skin when people make outlandish claims without backing them up, but I shouldn't be rude about it.
2. You made an outlandish claim without backing it up... until now... which is nice to see since, now that you have, we can make progress in our understanding of the comic... well almost, since...
3. Where did we learn the price of designating a royal heir (which is what I assume you mean by prince)? I kinda remember knowing something along this line before I took 6 months off from checking the comic, so I'm not doubting it's in here somewhere... I just don't remember where and I couldn't find it last time I looked.
4. I still don't find your argument compelling even if 3 is a verifiable number. We don't know all of the things that make schmuckers come and go... your claim about the treasury doesn't have much heft given this and given that promoting Wanda was an act of desperation. The overlord could pull out all of the stops for getting the required schmuckers since we know it essentially ENDED the side except for Wanda's stack (I'm thinking razing the capital city for money here).

Burden of proof for your claim is on you.

Whispri wrote:
Whispri wrote:
Beeskee wrote:For reference: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079a.jpg

This is the comic that talks about how Royals have slightly stronger stats, and level faster.

The trouble with that is, well how do we know that isn't just a bonus for being popped in a Side's Capital?

And when, pray tell, has Parson had the opportunity to meet a Warlord popped in the Capital of an Overlord? To our knowledge, the only living person on Erf who has met such a Warlord, would be the ever cagey Wanda.

Sorry for excising my own quote... 3 quote limit and I wanted that link in there....

Do you have an answer for how "Royal and noble units have slightly stronger stats, and level faster" could mean anything else? Remember you're not contradicting Parson here, you're contradicting Sizemore... and we have no reason to believe that he would be an unreliable source in this regard. Furthermore, it would be very out of keeping with the rest of the comic if we had to question rules as presented in Parson's updates.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Cubbins » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:38 pm

There is no evidence (that I'm aware of) from the comic for this conjecture, but might the cost of Unit promotion have at least a partial dependency on the current Level of the Unit being promoted? Perhaps a higher Leveled Unit would cost more (or less) to promote, above and beyond the 'Nobility' modifier. I don't have anything to back up that hypothesis, and I don't remember the Level of Wanda (or Tramennis, for that matter) upon the point of Promotion.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:26 pm

Cubbins...the most lovable caster :) I don't care who you are, you're my new best friend (well...second-best, because Salem is already my best friend thanks to our shared opinion of Cubbins as "Too cute to (stay) croak(ed)!")
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Lamech » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:42 pm

Cubbins the most lovable? Don't you mean Uhura
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:48 pm

Most loved and most loveable aren't always streets that intersect. Cubbins is in fact the most loveable as my bestie 0bie says. This isn't opinion either it's hard fact supported by
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:07 pm

True story bestie :p
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