Book 2 - Text Updates 057

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Jinren » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:40 am

hajo wrote:is it possible to pop common units with royal bonus, i.e. stronger, faster leveling, etc. ?


Going to hazard "no" because unless the concepts are completely divorced from their Stupidworld equivalents, royalty and nobility are expressions of rank. A prince always outranks a knight, therefore to make that work in Erfworld rules the prince has to pop as a warlord. So royalty and nobility are presumably extra bonuses applied after you request your warlord..?

Related thought though: can a unit be demoted? We know that a lowly piker can, with time, become an Overlord; can it go the other way? I expect you wouldn't see this often since the whole inherent-obedience thing means that cases of gross insubordination will be dealt with by summary disbanding (and lesser problems with being sent somewhere dull), but there might be uses for it somewhere. If so you could see what happens to royal attributes when a unit is reassigned. Perhaps they disappear, and it turns out that Jetstone was horribly misguided because royalty is a limited-assignable title bonus (after all, troops led by a warlord are not "objectively superior individuals" to those unled), not a unit property.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby effataigus » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:53 am

I'm generally loathe to compare Erfworld to Earth, but in this case it's appropriate because we're trying to figure out whether we should find this elitism abhorrent (not that it matters much for Erfworld). My thinking on the issue is somewhat simple. Here are my assumptions:

1. Erfworld units pop with the benefits that come from a human upbringing on Earth... all taken care of by the city production process that popped the unit.
2. Royals learn at least one trade (killing and leading killing) faster than non-royals.
3. Humans on Earth that have more resources invested in their upbringing are, on average, more well nourished (physically fit) and learn tasks faster (as a result of education) than people that grew up using the minimum available resources. This would be even more true if the education were geared toward the task that the person would ultimately have to learn.
4. Royals require more resources (production time? schmuckers?) to pop than non-royal units.

Therefore I equate the "royal" special to the "privileged" special on Earth... no matter any numerically born-out mechanics difference on Erfworld. Since I have been taught to find the belief that "people from a privileged upbringing are better than people from an unprivileged upbringing because they statistically perform better under many metrics" is abhorrent, I also find Slately's belief that Royals are better than non-royals abhorrent.

Moreover...

Ansom wrote: "I am directly descended from those whom the Titans chose to rule. I am stronger, smarter, and more morally fit than those of a lesser station. It is my privelege, and my burden, to lead both man and beast." (Thanks for the quote, Bladestorm.)


I think that Ansom has incorrectly taken the Erfworld Royal mechanic for more than it is. We don't know that the special has anything to do with raw intelligence or "moral fitness." In other words, yes, that's some master race **** Ansom is spouting.

That said, the young communist that once lived in me does say "from each according to their abilities." Jetstone used up many turns of production making these yahoos, so Jetstone would be foolish to not take advantage of their higher leadership. I'm not sure this translates to "Royals should always be overlords" however... just that it does make sense to put your best trained generals in charge of the battles.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:18 pm

effataigus wrote:
That said, the young communist that once lived in me does say "from each according to their abilities." Jetstone used up many turns of production making these yahoos, so Jetstone would be foolish to not take advantage of their higher leadership. I'm not sure this translates to "Royals should always be overlords" however... just that it does make sense to put your best trained generals in charge of the battles.

In all honesty casters probably make the best overlords/heirs. Heirs, because they can hide in the magic kingdom and take their revenge from there. No chance of truly eliminating your target side no matter how well you plan. Overlords because again a decent chance of retreat to the magic kingdom. Either way, the surviving casters have a good chance of avenging themselves against the attacking side. A whole array of extra casters supporting your enemies or even one will be a huge ass pain.

Also they can both function as a caster without risking the valuable investment placed in them by promoting them/popping them as a heir. With a warlord like Ansom or Jillian you lose the investment if they croak (or lose your awesome warlord if they become a ruler.)

Royals might be superior warlords, but... we don't know if the investment in creating them is really worth it, and I don't like them for rulers anyway.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:24 pm

^ This is why I'm DYING to see Jillian's Heir pop, so we might finally get confirmation that Casters can pop as Heirs too, just like when any Warlord pops.
Also why I'm curious to see confirmation of my suspicion that Olive now is/always was the Ruler of Haffaton.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:31 pm

The use of Royalty to lead may just be simple economics, placing the more expensive upkeep units in a position where they can maximize their benefit and justify their cost. I don't know the upkeep cost of a royal, but the production time is much higher. If I were a Ruler of a city, I would not want to spend five rounds popping a noble and then use it to dig tunnels, since I can use a Marbit or Gobwin to do the same job, for a lower production cost and lower upkeep. It's not so much that such a job should be 'beneath' the higher upkeep unit, it turns an inexpensive process into an expensive process unnecessarily. Also, since Royals learn faster and level faster, they can invest more into their Leadership (and any other skills that buff efficiency in subordinant units), which benefits the entire side. You could use Ansom as a plowhand, since his superior stats would enable him to plow a field faster and better than a regular farm unit, but in doing so you are not utilizing his leadership bonus, spending way too much upkeep for the plowhand position, and whoever is leading your battles in his place is not going to be able to make as good of use of the experience gained from the battle.

There's also the fact that roles can't be reversed as easily. You can't take a unit with no leadership, place them in charge of a stack, and expect it to be as effective as a stack with a Leadership bonus. To best utilize the expense of the Royal, you need to ensure that it survives long enough to make use of the experience gains. Putting it on the front lines as a stabber or piker endangers it far too much. Keep it on the battlefield, but screen it with less costly units. It makes economic sense to expend six units that cost 5 schmuckers each to ensure the survival of the 100 schmucker unit, especially if the six can be replaced in one or two turns. Royalty can go into hand-to-hand combat, but that's not maximizing their benefit to their side.

A similar example of economy would be Sizemore. Stanely was using him to clean out the cesspit, dig up a few gems every now and then, and that was about it. It was a complete waste of Sizemore's possible contributions to the Side. His bonus to tunnel-capable units, the golems, the traps, and all of the other tricks Parson had him use wiped out thousands of the enemy units (and got him two levels). The transformation Sizemore enabled of the city itself was massive, especially terraforming the hex to have a lava lake for defense. Even though Sizemore was quite effective at cleaning a cesspit, it wasn't the most economical use of that caster.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby effataigus » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:34 pm

Lamech wrote:In all honesty casters probably make the best overlords/heirs. Heirs, because they can hide in the magic kingdom and...


Huh... neat point!

I feel like Bogroll and Jack (and perhaps Charlie?) are pretty good examples of the idea that morality and intelligence aren't linked to royalty in any way, and I also feel like you'd probably want the smartest person leading your side (arguably morals would be good too). All other things being equal or in the absence of a good metric of intelligence however, having a caster would definitely give some nice flexibility.

Consider that a caster-Slately also wouldn't have had to worry about thinkagramming with an allied ruler (Don) or Hatt-ing for that matter (Bea to Don). Instead he could just pop in for a portal room visit (though he'd better REALLY trust his allies). I wonder if this friendly use would anger TMK?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:15 pm

Ansom wrote: "I am directly descended from those whom the Titans chose to rule. I am stronger, smarter, and more morally fit than those of a lesser station. It is my privelege, and my burden, to lead both man and beast." (Thanks for the quote, Bladestorm.)


I think that Ansom has incorrectly taken the Erfworld Royal mechanic for more than it is. We don't know that the special has anything to do with raw intelligence or "moral fitness." In other words, yes, that's some master race **** Ansom is spouting.

That said, the young communist that once lived in me does say "from each according to their abilities." Jetstone used up many turns of production making these yahoos, so Jetstone would be foolish to not take advantage of their higher leadership. I'm not sure this translates to "Royals should always be overlords" however... just that it does make sense to put your best trained generals in charge of the battles.[/quote]

Actually, I diasgree. In part anyway. We don't know what the special does he actually might. And to be fair we're mincing terms. Superior doesn't need to be superior in all things. Perhaps royalty do have higher average int stats and can raise them faster, their leadership might be higher, and there might be some other side wide benefit stat that a royal king provides to production. We don't know, Ansom might be full of boop but he might also be right. Maybe morality has nothing to do with superiority in a world defined by war where there is no morality associated to killing only really to polotics. And maybe royalty do have above average stats in things that represent morality to erfers, such as loyalty and duty. Stanley probably had those low which MIGHT mean low morality in thier moral scheme. We already know that Ansom and Stanley define morality differently. In point all humans do. Morality is a huuuuuuge issue in philosophy, is there a universal moral principal, is it relative, if it is universal why do people make the assumption their's is right. etc.

As far as capability to rule,
Charlie is a bad example he miiiight be an earth worlder and stats don't apply to him. I doubt when Parson leveled he got smarter. An Erfworlder actually might. Charlie could also just be an outlier, someone who stands out among non royals by luck and chance born with abnormaly high int score.

Wanda's father is a better example, he was clever and smart, just we know he failed. We don't know the whole story but Haffaton was involved and losing to them doesn't reflect poorly on a leader and he did VERY well in his position at least in my opinion. He also might be an outlier though. We don't have the relevant information to be sure. Perhaps to us Jetstone isn't morally fit. But our morals might not apply.

Perhaps though they do.

Hypothetical.
World B Royalty when in positions of leadership give bonuses to food production food is scarce. A royal abdicating to a non royal would be immoral as more people than neccesary would starve. (Assuming all other things equal)

World C Species A lets call them Royalians are smarter stronger more morally fit and more culturally advanced than Species B lets call them Serfs. Due to their intelligence they run cities more efficiently and protect their cities from natural disasters better. Due to their moral fitness they lead justly where as every Serf ever to be put into a position of power became a tyrant a murderer and a what have you. Now the right of a species for self determination becomes a large issue. When allowed to rule themselves the Serfs force the Royalians into violent wars that they always lose. If Ansom was in this world and spouting his rhetoric it might have more weight. And due to their crazy morality royalty might be more morally fit in Erf who knows.

Point is agree or disagree, but we should all admit it's more complicated than just simple right and wrong. In the end what we have is lawful and just kingdom possibly ruled by Bigotry and Evil and chaotic kingdom that due to it's chaotic nature values strength and ability wherever it finds it also has no regard for life. Frankly the kingdom also only kind of values ability and more so a what have you done for Stanley now. Neither are great places to live.


I hope I don't look like some bigot, I don't really believe any of this applies to humanity as it's been shown that the greatest predictor of anyone's almost anything is socioeconomic status. We are all the same species.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby drachefly » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:29 pm

Salem wrote:I doubt when Parson leveled he got smarter.


Parson has not leveled. He started at level 2.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:43 pm

drachefly wrote:
Salem wrote:I doubt when Parson leveled he got smarter.


Parson has not leveled. He started at level 2.

Hah, I am wrong. I actually meant to say "I doubt when Parson levels he gets smarter." Rather than putting any facts behind it.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:53 pm

drachefly wrote:
Salem wrote:I doubt when Parson leveled he got smarter.
Parson has not leveled. He started at level 2.

Actually that is his Chief Warlord bonus, which suggests that he is a level 1 or even level 0, since the position of Chief Warlord increases your Leadership Score (I think)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:56 pm

Whoever wins the war and eradicates the other Side is Right. History is written by the victors, and interpreted through their views.

Also, no one ever blames their deity when their team loses, but they are more than happy to give accolades and praise their faith when they win. Divinity is always on the side of the winners. Especially for holy wars -- whomever's god is more just shall be victorious over the heathens. Ansom didn't get to level 7 by being wrong. He did get decrypted by being wrong (in his view), and so he now clings to his new mandate as fiercely as he held onto the Titanic Mandate. Being by a level 2 potato man non-royal shook his faith and caused him to reassess his beliefs.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:03 pm

bladestorm wrote:Also, no one ever blames their deity when their team loses...

Eh, I disagree. While I wouldn't say they overtly blame the deity for the loss, when a religiously motivated group suffers a defeat, they generally believe that the deity made them lose because they (the mortals) had done something wrong and did not deserve victory. So it may be their own fault for committing some transgression, but the deity is the one who decided they should lose.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:15 pm

0beron wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Salem wrote:I doubt when Parson leveled he got smarter.
Parson has not leveled. He started at level 2.

Actually that is his Chief Warlord bonus, which suggests that he is a level 1 or even level 0, since the position of Chief Warlord increases your Leadership Score (I think)
There hasn't been any indication of chief warlord increasing one's bonus. It makes it have side wide and hex wide effects though.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:18 pm

Well then let's look at it from the other perspective...how could Parson, a unit from outside Erfworld who couldn't have had any XP before arriving, be a level 2? Either the Chief Warlord position always buffs your leadership score, or the Summoning Spell gives him some kind of Leadership Buff above what is normal.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:40 pm

bladestorm wrote:Also, no one ever blames their deity when their team loses...

Every is a dangerous term. I would not hold to the assumption that every religious person ever fell into that mold. Many maybe but all it takes to be wrong with this is one event. same with history by the victors, outside observers can break that.

0beron wrote:Well then let's look at it from the other perspective...how could Parson, a unit from outside Erfworld who couldn't have had any XP before arriving, be a level 2? Either the Chief Warlord position always buffs your leadership score, or the Summoning Spell gives him some kind of Leadership Buff above what is normal.

Or he has an above 0 score for any other reason like a racial or a special bonus. Could be a lot of things. It's also possible that as warlord and stratagist his gaming counted as "xp" but because it's only training it counts for little like artemis. He might actually be below average leadership for his level.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:25 pm

Sizemore said he leveled from building towns, so you probably can gain noncombat exp too. When the twolls fabricate too maybe?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:43 pm

Salem wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Also, no one ever blames their deity when their team loses...

Every is a dangerous term. I would not hold to the assumption that every religious person ever fell into that mold. Many maybe but all it takes to be wrong with this is one event. same with history by the victors, outside observers can break that.

The one incident where someone said something along the lines of "We lost because of Jesus. He hates our team. It's all his fault." would be deemed not religious enough, or something inherit to that religion would point to the individual being wrong, not the deity. Blaming your deity for your loss is not the same as believing you lost because you or your team had done something wrong in the eyes of your deity, or somehow managed to not have your deity's full attention, which in turn meant you didn't have the deity's blessings to win.

But this segue has two things to do with the story update -- Jack and boop. And Jack is in the Magick Kingdom.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Lamech » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:52 pm

0beron wrote:Well then let's look at it from the other perspective...how could Parson, a unit from outside Erfworld who couldn't have had any XP before arriving, be a level 2? Either the Chief Warlord position always buffs your leadership score, or the Summoning Spell gives him some kind of Leadership Buff above what is normal.

How could he have an upkeep score, or a leadership special at all? Presumably Erfworld assigned him stats possibly quasi-randomly (if it did that there's your answer), or by some logic based on what Parson was like. Parson has been alive for something like 60 thousand turns. It didn't even take Artemis a thousand to level. Its very possible some of Parson's earth activities counted as training, or some other experience gathering activity.

Also note, Archons have a lower leadership than their level it seems; I would be floored if the highest level leadership archon only had three levels. So its possible Parson has leadership that's higher or lower than his level. Maybe he has a double leadership special.

Either way, random stats or assigning stats via some logic, Parson could easily be level two, or have two leadership without any sort of bonus.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:02 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Sizemore said he leveled from building towns, so you probably can gain noncombat exp too. When the twolls fabricate too maybe?

Perhaps when caster's use their spells, they gain a very small fraction of xp, similar to when Artemis spent turn 'training' to gain xp. Would help explain how Wanda gained level so quickly.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:08 pm

bladestorm wrote:
Salem wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Also, no one ever blames their deity when their team loses...

Every is a dangerous term. I would not hold to the assumption that every religious person ever fell into that mold. Many maybe but all it takes to be wrong with this is one event. same with history by the victors, outside observers can break that.

The one incident where someone said something along the lines of "We lost because of Jesus. He hates our team. It's all his fault." would be deemed not religious enough, or something inherit to that religion would point to the individual being wrong, not the deity. Blaming your deity for your loss is not the same as believing you lost because you or your team had done something wrong in the eyes of your deity, or somehow managed to not have your deity's full attention, which in turn meant you didn't have the deity's blessings to win.

But this segue has two things to do with the story update -- Jack and boop. And Jack is in the Magick Kingdom.


Considering your statements and your go-to of jesus I would say your conclusion suffers from being based on Judeo-Christian preconceptions.
It is very believable in a polytheistic conceptualization. Or if your diety is one of Strife. A diety who believes failure and suffering forge courage and strength. You lose a limb get over it adapt.

Take Krom for example, having Krom's gaze on you is actually a bad thing, he likes to make things tough.

I would agree this has Jack and Boop to do with anything, but our discussion has had a lot about getting out of your preconceptions, trying to see the world from other views. We're most of us judgemental and elitist so it can be hard to see things from another's view.
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