Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby junovalkyrie » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:02 pm

Oberon wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Oberon wrote:After [Jillian] tamed [the dwagon], it was a unit of her side, but being tamed by a fugitive it followed the same rules as Jillian as far as move order goes. Once tamed, Jillian was free to use its move to extend her own, just as a dwagon relay does.
Actually, I think it's fairly clear that this is not the case... the dwagon definitely does not follow the fugitive rules, as it moves *after* the Haffaton infantry have moved to come and collect Jillian. Unless of course, that's just a loophole in the Fugitive rules.
Hmmm, interesting point. It can't be moving as a (non-fugitive) FAQ unit, because it moved on Haffaton's turn. And if it isn't moving as a fugitive, then it must be a Haffaton unit. But that would make Jillian's capture rather easy: One of the worlords in the stack hunting her would just order it to land, and that'd be it. Or perhaps if a fugitive unit that somehow gets more move can use it even if their 'head start' has been completed and the capturing side is in motion. Or it's an author error.


This seems like the most likely explanation.

The update wrote:As a fugitive, she took her move on Haffaton’s turn. But she moved first, as if she were the first Haffaton unit to receive orders.


A captured unit takes its turn with the side that captured it. It is given the ability to move before all other units on that side, but that doesn't preclude it from moving later on if it still has move remaining - the same way that the first unit of that side to receive orders can presumably keep moving until the end of the side's turn as long as it has move remaining, even if other units have expended move in the time since it first did so.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby onlyme » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:05 pm

Arky wrote:Just when the last update made me kind of like Jillian for the first time, we're back to "Jillian succeeds through unfathomable luck". Hmph.


I do not think it is unfathomable luck in here, just a big amout still in the usual range. Assuming there are nethack like mechanics here than taming the dragon worked because of exactly the same reason that caused her being trapped there: The total lack of food in this forrest.

Without the lack of food she could have continued on her route. With the lack of food she had to go back and was trapped there.
Without the lack of food the dwagon would not have been extremly hungry, thus (assuming nethack like mechanics) would have made it impossible to tame the dragon. With the lack of food, taming of the dragon gets likely.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby No one in particular » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:27 pm

It's possible the lack of food is BECAUSE the dwagon's been hunting there... seems like it'd eat a lot.

Alternately, it's possible the taming only worked not because Jillian gave it food, but she gave it drugged food, and this made it more pliable.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:29 pm

No one in particular wrote:Alternately, it's possible the taming only worked not because Jillian gave it food, but she gave it drugged food, and this made it more pliable.

I doubt that, because if "bribe it with food" wasn't the standard method, why would she have tried it at all?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Sixty » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:41 pm

How easy is it to tame a dwagon in general I wonder? It shouldn't be too easy or else the Hammer loses a lot of what makes it special outside of not needing to carry around a handy dandy bag o' corpses.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Morni » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:07 pm

Sixty wrote:How easy is it to tame a dwagon in general I wonder? It shouldn't be too easy or else the Hammer loses a lot of what makes it special outside of not needing to carry around a handy dandy bag o' corpses.


I say it's a roll of dice..

text update wrote:She made a desperate call, and sheathed her sword. She did not run, but turned away from the dwagon she knew would be in an attack dive, and picked up the body of one of the slain elves. She hoisted it above her head, and closed her eyes.

Either the dwagon was going to clobber her or not. Either it belonged to Haffaton, or it didn’t. Either this would work, or it wouldn’t. She’d made her decision.


novice predictmancy... Jillian is about to croak a small army.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby ftl » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:20 pm

Sixty wrote:How easy is it to tame a dwagon in general I wonder? It shouldn't be too easy or else the Hammer loses a lot of what makes it special outside of not needing to carry around a handy dandy bag o' corpses.


Well, it might just be risky. With the Hammer, Stanley walks up to a dwagon and boom, instant taming, no risk. Here, Jillian had to be pretty defenseless, offer up a few corpses, and hope that the dwagon found the corpses more appetizing than her.

A dwagon is probably about as valuable as a medium-level warlord; so if you have to risk a warlord AND give up some infantry to potentially gain a dwagon, it just might not be worth the risk in more typical circumstances.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Hidden Sanity » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:30 pm

Well.. you might have some lurking backup to prevent the loss if the dwagon goes hostile on you, but yeah... there was a risk here and Jullian got lucky.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby LTDave » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:46 pm

Oberon wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Oberon wrote:After [Jillian] tamed [the dwagon], it was a unit of her side, but being tamed by a fugitive it followed the same rules as Jillian as far as move order goes. Once tamed, Jillian was free to use its move to extend her own, just as a dwagon relay does.
Actually, I think it's fairly clear that this is not the case... the dwagon definitely does not follow the fugitive rules, as it moves *after* the Haffaton infantry have moved to come and collect Jillian. Unless of course, that's just a loophole in the Fugitive rules.
Hmmm, interesting point. It can't be moving as a (non-fugitive) FAQ unit, because it moved on Haffaton's turn. And if it isn't moving as a fugitive, then it must be a Haffaton unit. But that would make Jillian's capture rather easy: One of the worlords in the stack hunting her would just order it to land, and that'd be it. Or perhaps if a fugitive unit that somehow gets more move can use it even if their 'head start' has been completed and the capturing side is in motion. Or it's an author error.


I can't see this being the case. The fugitive moves in the same turn as the side that captured them. That they get to move first just means that they don't have to wait for orders to move. They can use all or some of their move in any order through the turn.
The Dwagon is a mount, and moves (now that it is tamed) at the same time as its rider (in this case, a fugitive).
It's pretty clear that the reason Jillian and the Dwagon are still in the hex when the Haffaton Infantry come in is that it has taken that long to tame the Dwagon. Fugitives do not have to complete their move before Haffaton's regular units make their moves - it's all just happening simultaneously.


On another note, I'm enjoying the prequel more than the comic at the moment. Well done!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby RichMan » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:22 pm

Sixty wrote:How easy is it to tame a dwagon in general I wonder? It shouldn't be too easy or else the Hammer loses a lot of what makes it special outside of not needing to carry around a handy dandy bag o' corpses.


Are you sure we know the full abilities of the Hammer ?
- tame dragons
- van-der-graf
- walnuts to pigeons

The walnut thing looks pretty handy you know?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Oberon » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:27 pm

RichMan wrote:Are you sure we know the full abilities of the Hammer ?
- tame dragons
- van-der-graf
- walnuts to pigeons

The walnut thing looks pretty handy you know?


- Pigeons to walnuts
- Flight
- Rock out
- Artifact bonus in combat (Makes you wonder if the 'dish also gives an artifact bonus in combat. Not that Charlie needs even more powers and abilities...)

Plus Stanley is finally trying, in his poor and inconsistent way, to see if he can discover if it has more capabilities.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Lamech » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:48 pm

LTDave wrote:On another note, I'm enjoying the prequel more than the comic at the moment. Well done!

But there is so much more art in the comic, and the arts so good... Although, I do see how the prequel is an epic escape while the comic is heavy amounts of incompetence. Except Sylvia. She's surprisingly effective.

Oberon wrote:- Pigeons to walnuts
Pretty sure it was Jack's illusion at that point. (Also it was on orly) Of course, it could very well do exactly that. Or even a wider spectrum of change-a-mancy.
Oberon wrote:- Artifact bonus in combat (Makes you wonder if the 'dish also gives an artifact bonus in combat. Not that Charlie needs even more powers and abilities...)
Presumably it can give something extra at Charlescomm. However, it does give a long range bonus if Charlie drops a line to direct the battle personally. 5 IIRC.

It also makes things disappear, though Stanley does not yet control it.
It shoots other sorts lighting than the Van de graff.
It is a epically powerful weapon.
I suspect it "tames" people too. Quite possibly what blocked Vanna's turnamancy on Ansom.
It seems to have done something to Stanly's personal dwagon.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:05 pm

RichMan wrote:
Sixty wrote:How easy is it to tame a dwagon in general I wonder? It shouldn't be too easy or else the Hammer loses a lot of what makes it special outside of not needing to carry around a handy dandy bag o' corpses.


Are you sure we know the full abilities of the Hammer ?
- tame dragons
- van-der-graf
- walnuts to pigeons

The walnut thing looks pretty handy you know?

Gotta consider how long that meal is going to keep the dwagon tamed. Could be only until next turn unless it's upkeep can be met. As for the hammer, we've only seen what it can do in Stanley's hands, and he's not the most creative leader around. And don't forget, it can also Rock Out. But one can imagine that the dwagon taming power of the hammer is as far beyond regular taming as decrypted is beyond uncroaking.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby goldenboy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:11 pm

bladestorm wrote:Gotta consider how long that meal is going to keep the dwagon tamed. Could be only until next turn unless it's upkeep can be met. As for the hammer, we've only seen what it can do in Stanley's hands, and he's not the most creative leader around. And don't forget, it can also Rock Out. But one can imagine that the dwagon taming power of the hammer is as far beyond regular taming as decrypted is beyond uncroaking.


Looking at Nethack again, pets will there eventually go feral if abandoned for long enough. It takes a while though. Nethack pets might (IIRC) also turn hostile if you hurt them a few times. Maybe the hammer can perma-tame them.

I wonder if you can teach tame Dwagons to shoplift, too...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Beeskee » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:15 am

Yes, you can, but the structural damage to the building is often extensive.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:36 am

I just came in to groan very, very loudly at 'high elves.'
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Salem » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:03 am

AllPurposeNerd wrote:I just came in to groan very, very loudly at 'high elves.'

Pretty sure high elves have bee introduced multiple times as this exact same pun before. Weren't they the ones who came upon WRECD the first time when they were hiding in the trees?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby ftl » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:20 am

Salem wrote:
AllPurposeNerd wrote:I just came in to groan very, very loudly at 'high elves.'

Pretty sure high elves have bee introduced multiple times as this exact same pun before. Weren't they the ones who came upon WRECD the first time when they were hiding in the trees?


I think it wasn't WRECD yet, but yes, Jillian's met High Elves before.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby No one in particular » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:05 am

ftl wrote:
Salem wrote:
AllPurposeNerd wrote:I just came in to groan very, very loudly at 'high elves.'

Pretty sure high elves have bee introduced multiple times as this exact same pun before. Weren't they the ones who came upon WRECD the first time when they were hiding in the trees?


I think it wasn't WRECD yet, but yes, Jillian's met High Elves before.
Salem wrote:
AllPurposeNerd wrote:I just came in to groan very, very loudly at 'high elves.'

Pretty sure high elves have bee introduced multiple times as this exact same pun before. Weren't they the ones who came upon WRECD the first time when they were hiding in the trees?


Just because he's heard the joke before doesn't make it any better. :p
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby mortissimus » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:08 am

Housellama wrote:
Lamech wrote:So what did we all learn today?

4) Dwagons can survive off eating talking units.


4. Again, I think this can be extended to feral units in general.


Are all feral units predators or are you suggesting feral sheeps can also eat elves?
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