Book 2 – Page 89

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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Infidel » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:14 am

I find it interesting that Charlie uses RW mind control techniques. For all the talk of hypnotism or brainwashing to the contrary, real world mind control is most often simply controlling someone's perspective. Charlie starts controlling the victim's perspective with constantly shifting images, and starts talking really fast, leading from reasonable statement, to reasonable sounding statement, eventually leading to crazy statements, that seem reasonable only because of how they were presented. Just like conspiramentries. After they slip in the emotional strings and start yanking the victim around, the victim won't even realize that they have become mere pawns.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Oberon » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:59 am

TheTuna wrote:Don't know about you, folks, but I'd call that confirmation that Charlie either is from Earth, or can see Earth thanks to the Arkendish.

Erfworlders don't say "kill".
Meh, using kill rather than croak made the Joker quote closer to the actual quote: We kill the batman. Done for story as I see it, not as a reveal.

jah77 wrote:Can a double of Slately even make Tramennis heir? What powers does the double king have?
All of the powers of the king, naturally.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby shneekeythelost » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:01 am

You know, I think people have forgotten why Charlie is so hot to kill Parson. Go back here.

Charlie lost more than any other side that day that Rocks Fell and Everyone Died. Others lost units, even warlords. He lost secrets. Of all the people on Erfworld, Parson is the only one who's got a chance of predicting Charlie. Charlie doesn't know what Parson has pulled out of the Decrypted Archons... and he's deathly afraid of what it might be. Question: why?

If he's so nigh unstoppable, why is Charlie so hot to kill Parson? Hypothesis: Charlie's trick is quite powerful, but has a weak point somewhere. Maybe it's like D&D 3.5 and undead armies... if you want an army of thousands, you control a few lieutenants, they control a few sergeants, and so on down to the rank-and-file zombie. But that's a tenuous chain of command. Sniping a lieutenant takes that whole chain of command out of the necromancer's control. More often than not, they tend to turn on anything nearby... generally more of the Necromancer's troops.

As another point of reference... Starcraft (pre broodwar). When Zazz was killed by Zeratul, his whole brood went berserk and Kerrigan had to go in and put them all down.

I'm not saying that it is a tenuous chain of command that can cause internal conflict, but I am saying that there's a weak point somewhere in Charlie's strategy. And he knows it. And he's desperately afraid that Parson knows it too. Which is why he wants to kill the fatman. He's willing to spend shmuckers like candy. Shmuckers can be made up, after all. He's pretty much the main mercenary force around, he can pick his rates and get them. What can't be made up is the results of Parson leveraging something into Charlie's weak point.

I'd dearly love to put a Decrypted Archon in the same room with Parson and some of the Great Minds that Think Alike and figure out what Charlie's greatest secret truly is. But something tells me that isn't going to happen any time soon.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Lamech » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:31 am

Charlie's stragegy has a couple gaping holes off the top of my head.
1) Single failure point! One well placed nuke will end Charlie. All you need is a single summon perfect weapon spell.
2) He needs good press. If it somehow becomes rumored (well confirmed) he can implant suggestions via his dish's thinkagrams its game over for his telecomm business. I think the GMtTA could do this hear and now. All Issaac would need to say is that in think space he noticed a veiled suggestion on Parson making him attack the MK. Placed by none other than CHARLIE! Gets Parson off the hook, and ends Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Pastamancer » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:32 am

I don't thing that Charlie has any kind of master plan for erfworld that we aren't seeing. Parsons ultimate opponent is erfworld itself and it's endless war, we've know this since book 1. It's interesting (if creepy) seeing Charlie drop some of his act though. Charlie's "plan" has pretty much been explained in the Summer updates

Since it's been around for so long both us the readers and the resiedents of erfworld don't realize what an anomaly Charlescomm is. All the other sides are playing a fools game. When you play the game of Erfworld you can't win, the Titans designed it that way. While the other sides squabble in the mud over cities which grant diminishing returns (remember Gobwin Knob is a that point with 14 cities) locked into a endless cycle of war that will eventually destroy them. Charlescomm hovers over the strife feeding off it. Charlescomm doesn't need to bleed over rocks. Charlescomm has no enemies. Charlie probably froments strife across the Erf, but does he really need to. As long as the petty Kings, Queens, and Overlords fight over rocks some of them are going to be willing to pay Charlie's price for an edge and beneath his faux subservience he's laughing all the way to the bank. Right now Charlie is the one who's "winning" Erfworld because he's found a way to feed off the endless cycle of war without truely being a part of it. Charlie's "plan" is to extend his reach across the entire Erf then all he needs is for the war to keep on going as the Titans intended.

Forever.

So yeah that's why Charlie is the big bad of Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:43 am

Two things -

That joker image is from after Parson went to Erfworld, which suggests a really weird ongoing connection between the worlds.

I bet Charlie's gonna set an ambush up for Parson on the Jetstone side of the magic portal. I wonder what he'll offer Slatley to do for that though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby effataigus » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:50 am

Pastamancer wrote:...


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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Sieggy » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:15 am

At this point, Parson is too well protected in the MK (too many witnesses for anything overt) for Charlie to have him killed, so he has to get Parson through the portal into the combat zone where he's vulnerable. And that means that he has to pull some REALLY fast strings (G or otherwise) to get him into the kill box. Whoever facilitates this on the MK end of things (and not a protagonist already working on that) will be Charlies agent. We already are aware of a couple doing his bidding (for whatever reasons), but there has to be someone else as yet unknown.

Sort of like in the Godfather "After I'm gone, someone will come to you and ask to arrange a meeting, and will assure you of safety. At that meeting you will be assassinated. Whoever comes to you to arrange the meeting will be the traitor."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby bladestorm » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:59 am

Sieggy wrote:At this point, Parson is too well protected in the MK (too many witnesses for anything overt) for Charlie to have him killed, so he has to get Parson through the portal into the combat zone where he's vulnerable. And that means that he has to pull some REALLY fast strings (G or otherwise) to get him into the kill box. Whoever facilitates this on the MK end of things (and not a protagonist already working on that) will be Charlies agent. We already are aware of a couple doing his bidding (for whatever reasons), but there has to be someone else as yet unknown.

Sort of like in the Godfather "After I'm gone, someone will come to you and ask to arrange a meeting, and will assure you of safety. At that meeting you will be assassinated. Whoever comes to you to arrange the meeting will be the traitor."

Maggie is the main proponent for getting Parson through that portal. More evidence that Maggie is Charlie. Or at least a part of him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby multilis » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:31 pm

Parson/Wanda have power to bring the king back to life then set up situation where he would turn to original side. Wonder how long before Parson figures out how useful that bargaining chip is with Jetstone, Hagar, etc. - One extra life for a fee.

Dune series of SF had a faction that could do similar to that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Tathar » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:06 pm

Tiger wrote:Charlie is looking much more sinister now that he's been established as the villain of the story.

Part of my prediction comes true, while Rob suggests another part won't come true. But I'm sticking to my prediction that GK and JS will form an alliance (others will probably be in it too) to take down Charlie. There's nothing to say for sure that Tramennis will go along with Charlie's plan, and even if he does, he's likely to Heel Face Turn once he figures out Charlie's motivation and the threat he poses.

Charlie made a mistake by talking to clone Slately instead of Tramennis, since Slately doesn't have much power over the future direction that Jetstone takes.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Tathar » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:12 pm

jah77 wrote:This has been a long time coming but I just want to say:

I TOTALLY called this over a year ago! :D

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3034&start=100#p59913

You're not the only one. I just can't remember which thread I posted my prediction on, or I'd link it too.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby TheMutant » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:19 pm

Tathar wrote:Charlie made a mistake by talking to clone Slately instead of Tramennis, since Slately doesn't have much power over the future direction that Jetstone takes.


True. But Charlie needs short term results right now- it seems very likely that he knows that Parson is in the MK and on his way right now to Jetstone. He guessed- correctly- that Slately is in a vulnerable position right now, mentally and physically, and it took him all of thirty seconds to get Slately in a position where he's going to do anything he says. Tramennis might argue or debate or choose other options or demand more details-doesn't help that he's distraught right now by Slately's (impending) death- Slately won't, and Slately's decisions would be far more difficult for Tramennis to countermand than the other way around. Charlie just bent Jetstone over his knee, and I think we're going to see an embarrassing level of violence directed Parson's way very shortly, with Slately at its head- after all, he's going to croak next turn, what does it matter if he goes out trying to take the fat man down first?
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Sixty wrote:Obviously the mystery caster has no particular feelings one way or the other about Parson, he simply heard "cue the Benny Hill music" and gave chase, compelled to do so by forces outside his control.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:36 pm

Also consider that Trem (at least previously) has wanted to TALK with Parson. And Charlie knows this. So it'd be a risk for Charlie to count on the death of his father and brother to over-ride that diplomatic curiosity Trem has.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Tathar » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:41 pm

TheMutant wrote:
Tathar wrote:Charlie made a mistake by talking to clone Slately instead of Tramennis, since Slately doesn't have much power over the future direction that Jetstone takes.


True. But Charlie needs short term results right now- it seems very likely that he knows that Parson is in the MK and on his way right now to Jetstone. He guessed- correctly- that Slately is in a vulnerable position right now, mentally and physically, and it took him all of thirty seconds to get Slately in a position where he's going to do anything he says. Tramennis might argue or debate or choose other options or demand more details-doesn't help that he's distraught right now by Slately's (impending) death- Slately won't, and Slately's decisions would be far more difficult for Tramennis to countermand than the other way around. Charlie just bent Jetstone over his knee, and I think we're going to see an embarrassing level of violence directed Parson's way very shortly, with Slately at its head- after all, he's going to croak next turn, what does it matter if he goes out trying to take the fat man down first?


Whether Slately is more susceptible to becoming Charlie's pawn means little once Parson enters the picture and explains why Charlie's so bent on killing him. Tramennis has been established long ago to be open to the idea of world peace, even to the point of implying that he believes that could be the Titans' true plan for Erfworld. Cue finding out that Charlie's entire business model (and his motivation for wanting Parson dead) is in direct conflict with this idea, and that Parson is offering an alliance.

Reference: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_15
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby drachefly » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:27 pm

The Tlielaxians could bring someone back over and over and over again, not just once. They... stuck around. And their trade secrets were kept for an absurdly long period of time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby bladestorm » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:29 pm

0beron wrote:Also consider that Trem (at least previously) has wanted to TALK with Parson. And Charlie knows this. So it'd be a risk for Charlie to count on the death of his father and brother to over-ride that diplomatic curiosity Trem has.

Tremennis has also proven to be able to follow one of Charlie's plans about as well as Jillian does. And we saw how short Charlie's last thinkagram was with her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:37 pm

TheTuna wrote:Erfworlders don't say "kill".


Eh. I think the use of kill is less a clue about who he is and more in service of the reference joke. Further, him referencing shapes and names from our world doesn't mean he's consciously stealing them. Erfworld itself is made of reference humor that its inhabitants don't get.

What's more interesting to me is the number of references to things that occurred after Parson was summoned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby LTDave » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:06 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:What's more interesting to me is the number of references to things that occurred after Parson was summoned.


But surely there is no specific date for his summoning? Can't a new reader decide that Parson was summoned in 2012, while those of us who've been reading it since (I can't even remember - 2009? ish?) it appeared over at giantitp.com are going c'mon, we didn't even have iphones then... (or whatever).

My biggest concern with this comic is that the pop culture references will quickly date it.

(also, when I read "kill the fat man", I can't help giggling about that xkcd comic where he replaces "batman" with "a man dressed like a bat". So for me, this comic says "We kill the man who is dressed like he's fat", which is far funnier)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:19 pm

LTDave wrote:But surely there is no specific date for his summoning?


July 2006.

http://hamstard.com/ Last update February 20th 2006. Beginning of book 1, Parson said he had been working on the game they were about to play 'for a solid five months,' and they explicitly stated it was July.

So either there's some indeterminate whole number of years between the cessation of Hamstard and the beginning of Parson's game development during which he did... something else... or there's a deliberate continuity there and him referencing anything less than six years old is a plot hole.
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