Book 2 – Page 86

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:47 pm

Upon re-reading First Intermission 45, I don't see a clear indication that the mountains aren't littered with dead Gobwins. Parson might not have mentioned dead Gobwins being spotted in hexes where there are "a lot of Marbits", because there would be nothing mysterious about the fate of those Gobwins. The mystery would be why there are "a lot of Marbits".

We know that the tribes that become natural allies can pop units if given Schmuckers, and there has not been a statement that this needs to take place in the same hex as the income or the chieftan. In fact, we know that chieftans have natural thinkamancy that allows them to give some orders to the members of the tribe at remote distances. It is possible that the Marbits popping up near GK belong to a tribe that is receiving payments far away from GK. The individual Marbits encountered by GK could be kept ignorant of the fact that the tribe is receiving subsidies.
User avatar
Chit Rule Railroad
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:07 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Upon re-reading First Intermission 45, I don't see a clear indication that the mountains aren't littered with dead Gobwins. Parson might not have mentioned dead Gobwins being spotted in hexes where there are "a lot of Marbits", because there would be nothing mysterious about the fate of those Gobwins. The mystery would be why there are "a lot of Marbits".

We know that the tribes that become natural allies can pop units if given Schmuckers, and there has not been a statement that this needs to take place in the same hex as the income or the chieftan. In fact, we know that chieftans have natural thinkamancy that allows them to give some orders to the members of the tribe at remote distances. It is possible that the Marbits popping up near GK belong to a tribe that is receiving payments far away from GK. The individual Marbits encountered by GK could be kept ignorant of the fact that the tribe is receiving subsidies.

Yeah, pretty much exactly my thoughts. And if this is true, the pliers can turn those marbit subsidies into marbits for GK. I got from the "lots" of marbits line that the marbits were abnormally high. Maybe they just got a good fungus farm, and some nice gem veins, but I bet its Charlie. Probably laundered through another side.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Nnelg » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:43 am

Lamech wrote:A timeturner.

A Turnamancer-Dittomancer-Retconjuror Quad-Link.


bladestorm wrote:Is it possible that the gobwins started disappearing right about time a stabber had the rules adjusted in her favour to keep her from croaking?

No. Sylvia was already decrypted in GK's service at this point.
"The Wizard is Charlie!"
User avatar
Nnelg
 
Posts: 907
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Internets the World of Webs

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Oberon » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:17 am

effataigus wrote:Anyone know for certain whether non-cities have zones? I feel like I used to know that.
There has been no mention of such a mechanic.
effataigus wrote:Relatedly, would it cost move for a unit to move from tunnels outside of a city to the surface? Could they do so off-turn?
If such a mechanic exists, and if it follows the same rules as for city hexes, then the owning player could move units between these zones at will off-turn and with no move cost.
drachefly wrote:Only in the hexes Stanley would actually visit. They scan many many more hexes than that - and that's where the bulk of the risk of detection comes from.
C'mon, that doesn't even make any sense. They would want to ensure that Stanley could not be ambushed at all, since all that is at stake is, y'know, the entire side. That includes the possibility that there is a veiled stack in a hex Stanley isn't going into, but which could attack him if he was stalled and could not return to GK, or if a side which acts before Stanley (you know, like Charley?) can get a veiled stack in place on one turn, and then attack Stanley's stack on the next turn simply by being near enough to do so.

And yeah, neither option is possible if Stanley always returns to GK every turn. Except, of course, that Stanley/GK is the single victim of (*Ptui*) Kingworld, and his smart CWL is well aware that their turn can be ended at any time. Acting as if this cannot happen again would be the height of stupidity, especially when undertaking a task which risks the Overlord and the entire side. And yeah, I hate to operate as though tri-mancer spells can happen at any time, but Parson doesn't know what it took to end the GK turn, and cannot assume that it could not happen again at any time until he learns about the constraints of this spell.
raphfrk wrote:Sounds like you would have to clone Rob and Xin to get twice the output.
Wait, what? Are you suggesting that all we need is a high enough level dittomancer and we'd get twice the comic goodness? Let's start leveling the dittomancers! :D
Nnelg wrote:Now I just don't understand what you're going on about. All I was saying is that it only takes one tunnel that GK doesn't know about or doesn't search for a hypothetical insurgent force to have a safe haven where there's practically 0% chance of being discovered.
Exactly. You're assuming that this is the case in every turn. An assumption which I find to be improbable.
cheeseaholic wrote:I just don't see Charlie taking the direct and dangerous approach when the indirect approach has little to no risk.
Agreed. Charlie is very risk adverse.
Nnelg wrote:Of course, I have absolutely no doubt that Charlie would take the option with the least risk and greatest reward. But we have no idea which options are available to him (or even which ones work in practice, not just theory).

And Charlie's a smart guy. He knows that sometimes it's better to take greater risks to get a shot at the greater reward.
On the contrary, by canon Charlie prefers/only operates within situations in which there is no lose condition. This is the Overlord who spent a valuable mathamancy prediction and then sent exactly the number of archons needed to take the GK garrison in one turn, rather than leave the fight up to chance. This is the guy who was convinced to call off his own attack on GK based on the high probability that GK would own the 'pliers after their turn ended, and if they failed he still could capture Parson and the mathamancy bracer. This is the exact opposite of someone who is willing to risk more for a higher payout (and please don't cite the volcano as a counter argument. There was no rational reason for Charlie to have anticipated this). Charlie wants the highest reward for the least risk, and everything we've seen about him supports this.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby goldenboy » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:51 am

Great looking page, so much to look at. How much work that must be.
goldenboy
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:58 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:02 am

Oberon wrote:(and please don't cite the volcano as a counter argument. There was no rational reason for Charlie to have anticipated this).

More to the point if he had, that wouldn't be a reason attack quickly. Indeed, had he attacked quickly Parson would have still cooked off the volcano, and all of his archons still would have gone up in smoke. By waiting Charlie got a contract with Ansom. He made out like a bandit, all those penalty clauses.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:04 am

Nnelg wrote:No. Sylvia was already decrypted in GK's service at this point.


At the point when they figured out that there were no barbarian gobwin tribes around. The gobwin tribes could have been gone for a lot longer, but GK never bothered to look for them until after all of the gobwins allied with GK were spent. For all we know, there could have been no barbarian gobwin tribes around GK since King Saline IV was killed. There could be a connection there beyond Charlie being suspected of being involved on both. Vurp is possibly the only one left who has first hand information about what happened that turn, and he lies more than a Predictamancer with a personal agenda.
bladestorm
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 10:11 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Nnelg » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:18 am

Oberon wrote:And yeah, neither option is possible if Stanley always returns to GK every turn. Except, of course, that Stanley/GK is the single victim of (*Ptui*) Kingworld, and his smart CWL is well aware that their turn can be ended at any time. Acting as if this cannot happen again would be the height of stupidity, especially when undertaking a task which risks the Overlord and the entire side.

This was before Kingworld. And now the decrypted archons are dead, so Stanley won't go dwagon-hunting again anytime soon.

As for being prepared in case Stanley was delayed, I'd think it'd be easier to thoroughly search all the hexes Stanley plans to visit for anything that possibly could delay him from returning, than to thoroughly search every hex within striking distance of the hexes Stanley was going to visit.


Oberon wrote:Exactly. You're assuming that this is the case in every turn. An assumption which I find to be improbable.

What's improbable to be the case every turn? That this hypothetical tunnel remains undiscovered by GK, or unsearched? Or that the hypothetical insurgents hide in it?


Oberon wrote:On the contrary, by canon Charlie prefers/only operates within situations in which there is no lose condition.
[...]
Charlie wants the highest reward for the least risk, and everything we've seen about him supports this.

Of course if one can maximize reward and minimize risk at the same time, one should. But I think you mean to say that so far, Charlie's preferred minimizing risk over maximizing reward.

Well, during tBfGK he was still playing his long, patient game. He could afford to take the small, but certain gains. But now events conspire against him. If he doesn't do something a little more drastic than the usual, he risks something drastic being done to him first.
"The Wizard is Charlie!"
User avatar
Nnelg
 
Posts: 907
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Internets the World of Webs

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:33 pm

Nnelg wrote:
Well, during tBfGK he was still playing his long, patient game. He could afford to take the small, but certain gains. But now events conspire against him. If he doesn't do something a little more drastic than the usual, he risks something drastic being done to him first.

Yup right now Charlie doesn't have a non-risky solution. If no one stopped GK it was very likely they would have continued to build dwagons, and other units. Once major opposition to them was cleared out (which would have happened with the fall of Jetstone), there would be no one left with the forces to do it. Then GK could sit and farm its everything that pops nearby for however long they care to wait, and probably get some allies too. Then they could just steamroll everyone in a a few thousand turns with some inanaly large army.'

Its do or die for Charlie. His "risky" actions aren't risky. He is minimizing risk to himself.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby bladestorm » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:27 pm

GK could beat out Charlie by a war of attrition. Decrypted have 0 upkeep. Archons range between an estimated 200 and 500. Charlie also depends on other sides using his services, and most kingdoms are not doing business with Charlie over this whole Toolist vs Royalist gambit. Charlescomm may have made a fortune off of tBfGK, especially off of the non-return fees, but how much longer can he pay the upkeep of his many Archons without a fresh new supply of income?

Now if Charlie can figure out how to get the rest of his Archons to the same upkeep as the captured decrypted Archons, that would change a LOT of things.
bladestorm
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 10:11 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Saladman » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:53 pm

Fcannon wrote:Is this the first mention we've seen of red dwagons being resistant/immune to fire damage?


I believe so.
Saladman
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:51 pm

Fcannon wrote:Is this the first mention we've seen of red dwagons being resistant/immune to fire damage?

Explicit mention yes. Although from the Artemis text updates should have been clear that they were. When dwagons got dusted they left fire inside them behind. (Or gas in the case of greens.) If fire hurt them, they would burn to death right quick.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby :-) » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:21 pm

I just noticed something, Cpt. Archer doesnt have a single flowered skull on him, could that mean that he's one of the 'Live' units and not decrypted?
:-)
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:03 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby asparagus » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:02 pm

I think I just figured out where this is heading. Our redhead is contemplating winning a battle the way Parson one his big battle - this is not something Parson wants seeing repeated and he will be angry.
asparagus
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Nnelg » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:19 pm

:-) wrote:I just noticed something, Cpt. Archer doesnt have a single flowered skull on him, could that mean that he's one of the 'Live' units and not decrypted?

I don't think so. The only non-hobgobwin GK post-tBfGK units we've seen have a different color scheme, as shown in Page 56, Panel 2.


asparagus wrote:I think I just figured out where this is heading. Our redhead is contemplating winning a battle the way Parson one his big battle - this is not something Parson wants seeing repeated and he will be angry.

Right. Parson takes big risks when he needs to, but that only works because he knows the difference between a merely big risk and a foolish one. Burning the garrison doesn't give much reward, so it's a foolish risk to take.
"The Wizard is Charlie!"
User avatar
Nnelg
 
Posts: 907
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:40 pm
Location: Internets the World of Webs

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby :-) » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:02 pm

Nnelg wrote:
:-) wrote:I just noticed something, Cpt. Archer doesnt have a single flowered skull on him, could that mean that he's one of the 'Live' units and not decrypted?

I don't think so. The only non-hobgobwin GK post-tBfGK units we've seen have a different color scheme, as shown in Page 56, Panel 2.


Yes but he is a warlord and you can see here in first panel that Manpower the Temporary was as a warlord wearing similar colors even before his first death, so its still possible...
:-)
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:03 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Infidel » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:36 pm

pasted this to wrong thread somehow. fixed.

Hrm, feels a bit retcon to me personally. With this new info, her attitude about it is post decryption. Where it is presented as existing before, but we know her current attitude didn't really exist before because, before she was the voice of restraint, now she needs to be restrained.

I'm seeing too many similarities to Ansom's religious experience being "Popped Again." Since the pliers are a tool of fate, one of the characteristics seems to be an overbearing arrogance regarding fate. Fate is on our side. Or maybe just arrogance. It just didn't work on Ossomer because he was already so arrogant he flipped his counter into the negatives.

She said herself it wasn't her preferred plan, so she really was just goading her attendant to develop a plan. She is smirking too hard at the end for me to believe she was being totally crazy there. Or put another way, she ISN'T running around pushing her fate. She is exploring the other options, but if the other options do not suffice, then she will be bold.

Because Luck favors the Bold.
Just as the Romans taught us.

Still, I'm going to have to change my avatar now. New art is too good.
Who is that beautiful red-headed devil,
Stabs you in the heart so that she can level?
It's Scarlet!
- BC
User avatar
Infidel
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Housellama » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:44 pm

re: Lady Sylvia AKA Sylvia the Royal: All units of a Royal Side are Royal. Only Commanders can carry the Royal special, but being Royal is more than a special, it's an inherent part of being on that Side. Sylvia was promoted to Warlord. Even though she was popped as a Stabber, she was a Commander popped by and working for a Royal side. That makes her Royal. Thus, Lady Sylvia/Sylvia the Royal. *

Also, am I the only one here who actually likes Sylvia's backstory? I like what it reveals about Carneymancy, about the rules and about Sylvia herself.

For one thing, she's not crazy. That always bothered me a little bit. Sylvia always struck me as someone who understood more of what was going on. Her actions (when she wasn't tempting Fate) were logical and well thought out. The fact that she would throw it all away through her twisted version of the Gambler's Fallacy seemed wrong. Now that it has been shown that she has a reason for her actions, she makes a lot more sense to me.

The 4th panel shows that she isn't stupid. She WILL do it, but only as a last option. Every time she's tempted Fate, it has been because of a lack of a better option. It could be argued that she gambled a bit with Captain Archer, but even then she played dead until he came back. Her thoughts and actions are tactically sound. She's always working to the greater good of GK. If she did burn down the garrison, GK would destroy Jetstone. With the King still in the City (albeit the Airspace), if the city falls completely it would still mean the end of the Side.

Yeah, it would suck, but GK itself would survive with practically all of its major units (again, as far as she knows) and the major enemy of GK for a long time would be gone. It's not the best move by far, but it would get the job done. Normally, a unit wouldn't consider such an option except under completely desperate conditions (and even then, Loyalty and Duty would probably have to be through the roof), but Sylvia knows she has an ace in the hole. That lack of fear makes her consider solutions to problems that most would not. Actually, that makes her an extremely effective Warlord, especially working under someone like Wanda or Parson. One believes in Fate above all and the other is the master of the unconventional solution.

* - This is speculation, of course. We don't know the specifics of Royalty, but it makes sense. What would be interesting is seeing a unit popped by a Royal side be captured and promoted to Warlord by a non-Royal side. Would they still become a Royal? What about a unit popped by a non Royal and elevated by a Royal? Having a Royal side unit becoming Royal when promoted to Commander by that side is not even a little stretch.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
User avatar
Housellama
Tool + YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 499
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Housellama » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:04 pm

Another thought.

Sylvia is only seeing the up side of being stuck alive. There are some pretty terrible downsides to being 'immortal'. Slightly less so in a setting like Erfworld where mundane old age isn't a factor, but it's still there. If her immortality has been truly assured, then she can't be destroyed no matter what. Meaning, if a situation comes up where her alive is a bad thing, she might have a problem.

What if she gets captured and Turned? What if she does piss off Wanda who gives her something like Prometheus's torture? We also don't know how her price is being paid, or what the trade was. What if Sylvia finds a situation where she doesn't want to pay the price (whatever that is) anymore? If Fate has actually mandated that she stay in existence, she's going to have a problem.

While there are definitely benefits to her supposed condition, there are also some major potential drawbacks to it as well. This is Carnymancy. There's almost assuredly a catch somewhere.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
User avatar
Housellama
Tool + YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 499
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 86

Postby Lamech » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:58 pm

Housellama wrote:While there are definitely benefits to her supposed condition, there are also some major potential drawbacks to it as well. This is Carnymancy. There's almost assuredly a catch somewhere.

Fate has mandated she be alive. There is no need for any other catch. Fate will just bill someone for the befits it gives Sylvia, and then its all good! Just like when Goodmitton was given Wanda the super caster by Fate. Fate finds someone to pay Wanda's tab and its all good. So if the garrison is set on fire Fate will just need to resurrect her. Fate did it before and look how well that turned out. :twisted:
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ff6shadow, Finwe and 16 guests