Book 2 – Text Updates 056

[effataigus]

Infinite growth of population is possible as far as upkeep is concerned and it's a point I've thougt of for a while. GK would have won if Parson still had the sword of ruthlesness. According to my favorite hero:
Part 1 of the recipe for success
Raw overwhelming power.
Part 2
How willing you are to debase yourself before feeling bad.

The Plan to conquer all of Erf.
As many turns of peace as possible.
Pop units nonstop in all your cities.
Hunt Dwagons, hunt all barbarian type units in your entire domain.

Now, you're looking at overkilling your upkeep. That's where debasing yourself comes in.
Almost as evil as a suit of armor entirely composed of babies.
Executions daily!
Everyday execute and decrypt all units with an upkeep that it is possible to decrypt. Snowball the size of your forces until no army on erf can win a battle against you. (Granted every side on erf working together could suicide and build faster than you.)
But that's when you start conquering cities. You have a max schmuckers per turn due to the fact you have minimum upkeep so every city you own can pop, using dragon rely wanda can be present at all executions. I believe we've even seen a decrypted level by killing a prince. So you could choose who to give the experience to. Your force would just get bigger and bigger only capped by a maybe yet to be seen unit cap.

if you start world conquest, decryption won't be enough to defend yourself. see 0beron's explanation above, as well as mine

I've read the entire thread. I do before I post in general. I don't think they apply.
Diminishing returns only applies if you have upkeep. I'm talking an army without upkeep. Executing all your own units and making them decrypted.

Aye... and Wanda need not move around... just send all new units on a "pilgrimage to redemption" at the well-fortified (de?)capital site before returning them to active guard duty wherever they spawned. Then upkeep would only be a factor for the length of that journey.

However, there is another possible mechanic by which diminishing returns may operate. I've played at least one game where the amount of graft increased with distance from a capital such that, with far flung cities, the cities themselves either had no net production or (if the game distinguishes between money production and unit production) actually cost money to keep on a side.

Nevertheless, whether expansion is a good idea or not, time is definitely on the side of the plier-holder if he/she is willing to execute allied units (which Wanda demonstrably is).

[Salem]

Or if you wanted to be really efficient you'd have the pilgrimage to the closest place in the dwagon relay.

I admit I'm not sure at all of the rules that apply to cities and expansion other than diminishing returns. But if a city was ever going to be negative you could just raze it and defend the ruins to stop any negative returns. But you could even afford *some* negative cities since your upkeep is 0 and you'd be making tons of schmuckers everyturn unless you could spend it all which would actually be optimal.

[Ytaker]

Or if you wanted to be really efficient you'd have the pilgrimage to the closest place in the dwagon relay.

I admit I'm not sure at all of the rules that apply to cities and expansion other than diminishing returns. But if a city was ever going to be negative you could just raze it and defend the ruins to stop any negative returns. But you could even afford *some* negative cities since your upkeep is 0 and you'd be making tons of schmuckers everyturn unless you could spend it all which would actually be optimal.

That negative would probably be because of corrupt leaders who sought to enrich themselves, not their capitol. But if everyone in every city loved Wanda, there would be no corruption.

Of course, Stanley would dislike the idea as Wanda would be much more powerful than him so it wouldn't happen. To make this work you need dwagons and decrypted so it's difficult to deal.

[Salem]

Or if you wanted to be really efficient you'd have the pilgrimage to the closest place in the dwagon relay.

I admit I'm not sure at all of the rules that apply to cities and expansion other than diminishing returns. But if a city was ever going to be negative you could just raze it and defend the ruins to stop any negative returns. But you could even afford *some* negative cities since your upkeep is 0 and you'd be making tons of schmuckers everyturn unless you could spend it all which would actually be optimal.

That negative would probably be because of corrupt leaders who sought to enrich themselves, not their capitol. But if everyone in every city loved Wanda, there would be no corruption.

Of course, Stanley would dislike the idea as Wanda would be much more powerful than him so it wouldn't happen. To make this work you need dwagons and decrypted so it's difficult to deal.

THe dwagons help, otherwise you are limited somewhat but if played right and with time used wisely I think it could be done. But I did mean GK could do it.
Also I don't think you NEED city officials they just give a bonus, plus there is natural loyalty and the undying loyalty of decrypted.

[Nnelg]

Stanley pops Dwagons, Charlie pops Archons, if their Arkentools are the reason why, perhaps Wanda would be able to pop Decrypted Units. Now that would be a World changer.

She already can, and does it all the time; on every battlefield.

Although, that does bring up an interesting pattern: each 'tool has a type of unit associated to them, but "recruits" these units in different ways. The 'Dish pops them in a city, the 'Hammer tames them from the wild, and the 'Pliers raises them from the dead. I wonder how the fourth 'Tool will work?

[Whispri]

Stanley pops Dwagons, Charlie pops Archons, if their Arkentools are the reason why, perhaps Wanda would be able to pop Decrypted Units. Now that would be a World changer.

She already can, and does it all the time; on every battlefield.

Although, that does bring up an interesting pattern: each 'tool has a type of unit associated to them, but "recruits" these units in different ways. The 'Dish pops them in a city, the 'Hammer tames them from the wild, and the 'Pliers raises them from the dead. I wonder how the fourth 'Tool will work?

Nope, that's animating, or resurrecting if you prefer. My point is, Stanley's Cities can pump out Dwagons. Charlie's City is an Archon spawning pit. This could be an aspect of their respectinve Arkentools. If so, Wanda may be able to pop Decrypted Units from any City she came to own.

[MonteCristo]

Stanley pops Dwagons, Charlie pops Archons, if their Arkentools are the reason why, perhaps Wanda would be able to pop Decrypted Units. Now that would be a World changer.

She already can, and does it all the time; on every battlefield.

Although, that does bring up an interesting pattern: each 'tool has a type of unit associated to them, but "recruits" these units in different ways. The 'Dish pops them in a city, the 'Hammer tames them from the wild, and the 'Pliers raises them from the dead. I wonder how the fourth 'Tool will work?

Nope, that's animating, or resurrecting if you prefer. My point is, Stanley's Cities can pump out Dwagons. Charlie's City is an Archon spawning pit. This could be an aspect of their respectinve Arkentools. If so, Wanda may be able to pop Decrypted Units from any City she came to own.

No its not... nothing suggest that Dwagon Popping is an effect of the hammer; though we have learn much about the hammer that is one detail that was never stated; and nothing suggest that GK did not have dwagons before Stanely got the Hammer. We also know that Charlescomm is NOT the only city that can pop archons, as the archons told parson that there are others, though only a few that can. The only quality that is unique to charlescomm in regards to archons, is that it can pop archons at an extremely high rate... THAT may or may not be an effect of the arkendish

My guess is that each tool DOES have a unit type associated with it, but its means of producing those units varies depending on the unit. Since dwagons exist in the wild, the Hammer was given the ability to tame them so that the toolist quick quicky recruit dwagons. The decrypted are merely the remains of fallen enemies, the way to create them is to croak other units. Neither needs the additional benefit of being able to pop these units because these methods are already adequate for their needs as it allows them to be much stronger than other sides with similar units. As for the archons, neither of those methods works so instead the dish gives its wielder and increased unit production so they can pop them.

[Whispri]

No its not... nothing suggest that Dwagon Popping is an effect of the hammer; though we have learn much about the hammer that is one detail that was never stated; and nothing suggest that GK did not have dwagons before Stanely got the Hammer. We also know that Charlescomm is NOT the only city that can pop archons, as the archons told parson that there are others, though only a few that can. The only quality that is unique to charlescomm in regards to archons, is that it can pop archons at an extremely high rate... THAT may or may not be an effect of the arkendish

My guess is that each tool DOES have a unit type associated with it, but its means of producing those units varies depending on the unit. Since dwagons exist in the wild, the Hammer was given the ability to tame them so that the toolist quick quicky recruit dwagons. The decrypted are merely the remains of fallen enemies, the way to create them is to croak other units. Neither needs the additional benefit of being able to pop these units because these methods are already adequate for their needs as it allows them to be much stronger than other sides with similar units. As for the archons, neither of those methods works so instead the dish gives its wielder and increased unit production so they can pop them.

Dwagons mean Stanley according to Ansom. Not Gobwin Knob. Stanley. That really does give reason to think that the Dwagons came with him. As for the Archons, an improved Pop rate is still an improvement. Furthermore, why should an abiity granted by an Arknetool not have a lesser, weaker, slower, mundane cousin, like, for example, Uncroaked and their relation to Decrypted?

Archons could pop in the wild for all we know (from ruins for example), boop, so could Golems or Uncrokaed. As for Decrypts, why should it's wielder be forced to fight others to gain its Units? No other Tool requires that. Indeed, why should the Arkendish be the only Tool that doesn't require a Ruler-Wielder to leave the Capital in order to gain its signature Unit?

[Nnelg]

Ok, stealing your opponent's dead units is the whole point of decryption. Popping decrypted just makes no sense at all.

Well, I suppose there's the whole "0 upkeep" thing, but you don't have to pop units as decrypted; just kill them off somehow.

[MonteCristo]

Dwagons mean Stanley according to Ansom. Not Gobwin Knob. Stanley. That really does give reason to think that the Dwagons came with him. As for the Archons, an improved Pop rate is still an improvement. Furthermore, why should an abiity granted by an Arknetool not have a lesser, weaker, slower, mundane cousin, like, for example, Uncroaked and their relation to Decrypted?

No, a "large overflight of Dwagons" means stanely... Gowbinknob could only pop dwagons once every few turns and time need to be given to pop other unit types, meaning that creating such a large overflight of dwagons would be difficult for any side with similar abilities. But since Stanley can tame them, he can much more easily create a large army of dwagons. So if your side is attacked by many dwagons, there's a good chance that Stanley had something to do with it; if you only see a couple, then it's probably not stanley since stanley doesn't roll that way. Heck, we can even factor in that Stanley was only the chief warlord of GK at the time of Faq's fall and not its ruler (who is the one who controls what pops)

Not to mention that if Gobwinknob couldn't pop dwagons before then that would mean their cities should be able to pop something else at level 3; the fact that they pop dwagons would mean that GK had to sacrifice a unit type to get their dwagons... Why should GK have to sacrifice a unit type to get the hammer's choice of unit? That sounds like a downisde and the tools are not known for having downsides; you can argue its still a net gain, but they still have to give up something to get something. Unlike wand and her decrypted as wanda doesn't have to give up anything except for the lives of her enemies, and the lives of her own units which are not truly lost at all.

Archons could pop in the wild for all we know (from ruins for example), boop, so could Golems or Uncrokaed. As for Decrypts, why should it's wielder be forced to fight others to gain its Units? No other Tool requires that. Indeed, why should the Arkendish be the only Tool that doesn't require a Ruler-Wielder to leave the Capital in order to gain its signature Unit?

Because Decyrption is ALREADY extremely effective at unit creation. In a single battle, the toolist can increase their army of decrypted by hundreds. Its far faster than either Stanely's or Charlie's methods. It would take charlie a hundred turns to create as many archons as decypted that Wanda can create in a single battle; no need for such a secondary option

Besides, why would you even WANT to pop decrypted... just keep the living units with the corakamancer and send them into battle, if they croak then they come back as decypted; It costs a bit more in upkeep, but its worth it since all of your units have effectively 2 lives to live thus making your army almost twice as powerful. Heck if you really want decrypted THAT badly, just pop living units and arrange for them to croak via "friendly fire" and decrypt them.

[ftl]

Given that Stanley was the Chief Warlord of Gobwin Knob then, and is overlord, they could be used pretty much interchangeably. Why, would Gobwin Knob mount a major offensive to take down a capital site WITHOUT their Chief Warlord?

Ansom (as CW of Jetstone) went after GK, and as CW of GK he went after Jetstone and Unaroyal, Chief Warlord Stanley was the one who took down FAQ, and so on and so forth. Seems like Chief Warlords are always out in the field - as would make sense, that's the point of them.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

Regarding the question of how close GK is to taking the Garrison of Spacerock, I just noticed something in a text update that reduces the significance of GK's unrivaled occupation of the atrium and dungeon: the customization of Spacerock went beyond giving the courtyard a roof to include turning the Garrison's outer structure into "not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers."

We haven't heard anything about GK forces being ordered to storm that palace complex. Conducting a search and destroy operation to clear the Garrison of Jetstone forces could take a while, especially without Thinkamancy coordination (Maggie out of juice and archons dusted).

[Whispri]

Ok, stealing your opponent's dead units is the whole point of decryption. Popping decrypted just makes no sense at all.

Well, I suppose there's the whole "0 upkeep" thing, but you don't have to pop units as decrypted; just kill them off somehow.

All the Arkenpliars do is create Decrypted and support them with an Artifact bonus. Why should they be useless to a Ruler?

Much simpler just to pop them.

No, a "large overflight of Dwagons" means stanely... Gowbinknob could only pop dwagons once every few turns and time need to be given to pop other unit types, meaning that creating such a large overflight of dwagons would be difficult for any side with similar abilities. But since Stanley can tame them, he can much more easily create a large army of dwagons. So if your side is attacked by many dwagons, there's a good chance that Stanley had something to do with it; if you only see a couple, then it's probably not stanley since stanley doesn't roll that way. Heck, we can even factor in that Stanley was only the chief warlord of GK at the time of Faq's fall and not its ruler (who is the one who controls what pops)

Not to mention that if Gobwinknob couldn't pop dwagons before then that would mean their cities should be able to pop something else at level 3; the fact that they pop dwagons would mean that GK had to sacrifice a unit type to get their dwagons... Why should GK have to sacrifice a unit type to get the hammer's choice of unit? That sounds like a downisde and the tools are not known for having downsides; you can argue its still a net gain, but they still have to give up something to get something. Unlike wand and her decrypted as wanda doesn't have to give up anything except for the lives of her enemies, and the lives of her own units which are not truly lost at all.

Because Decyrption is ALREADY extremely effective at unit creation. In a single battle, the toolist can increase their army of decrypted by hundreds. Its far faster than either Stanely's or Charlie's methods. It would take charlie a hundred turns to create as many archons as decypted that Wanda can create in a single battle; no need for such a secondary option

Besides, why would you even WANT to pop decrypted... just keep the living units with the corakamancer and send them into battle, if they croak then they come back as decypted; It costs a bit more in upkeep, but its worth it since all of your units have effectively 2 lives to live thus making your army almost twice as powerful. Heck if you really want decrypted THAT badly, just pop living units and arrange for them to croak via "friendly fire" and decrypt them.

Large in this context being a force of 36 Dwagons. At the start of TBfGK, Stanley had a little under 60 Dwagons in his service, despite losing numerous battles and being unable to leave the City to tame more.

Stanley recreated the Side after it was destroyed alongside Saline IV. The Units popped by a Side founded by Stanley and the Units popped by a Side established whoever first ruled Saline IV's Kingdom do not have to be the same.

Decryption only works that effectively while the wielder is able to be present withing range of the fighting. A Ruler-wielder... And yes it's faster than the other Tool's methods, but more effective?

Because they're free to maintain and because the Arkenpliars appear to be giving them an Artifact bonus. As for death arrangement has the same range problem as with the fighting. There's a reason Goodminton couldn't keep Wanda at the Capital. And before you mention relays, that can only work with a Ruler if you have Archons, Decrypted or otherwise,

Given that Stanley was the Chief Warlord of Gobwin Knob then, and is overlord, they could be used pretty much interchangeably. Why, would Gobwin Knob mount a major offensive to take down a capital site WITHOUT their Chief Warlord?

Ansom (as CW of Jetstone) went after GK, and as CW of GK he went after Jetstone and Unaroyal, Chief Warlord Stanley was the one who took down FAQ, and so on and so forth. Seems like Chief Warlords are always out in the field - as would make sense, that's the point of them.

Stanley wasn't always the Chief Warlord, he must have had a predecessor as he was popped a Piker.

[bladestorm]

A large overflight of dwagons could also be veiled Archons drumming up business. RCC paid a hefty sum for the use of Archons in TbfGK. Granted that it could have been Stanley, I wouldn't put it past Charlie to manufacture some evidence that would require some very expensive services.

[Nnelg]

All the Arkenpliars do is create Decrypted and support them with an Artifact bonus. Why should they be useless to a Ruler?

Much simpler just to pop them.

I never said Decrypted were useless, only that it was pointless to pop decrypted instead of living. You can always kill them yourself if you want.

Yes, it would be simpler to pop decrypted; but not better. All you're really doing is losing the flexibility to choose how you want to use your troops.

[bladestorm]

I never said Decrypted were useless, only that it was pointless to pop decrypted instead of living. You can always kill them yourself if you want.

Yes, it would be simpler to pop decrypted; but not better. All you're really doing is losing the flexibility to choose how you want to use your troops.

What if a popped Decrypted counted as a living unit, just with 0 upkeep, and could be decrypted once (but only once) if it fell in battle?

[drachefly]

Chances of that being the relevant mechanic are very slim.

[multilis]

Dwagons mean Stanley according to Ansom. Not Gobwin Knob. Stanley.

"A large overflight of dragons"

Imagine it instead was "A large overflight of archons". "So Charlie. Had to Be."

In other words only one person in world has *large* group of dragons or archons at that time. Everyone else *might* have a few at most. Decrypt is a game changer in that now possible that 2 sides could have large stack of any sort of rare/valuable units depending on how combat goes.

(Rare expensive units. I would guess from my experience in games that other sides *could* also tame a dragon from the wild, but incredibly tricky/expensive so rare. Eg. waste lots of scouts to locate wild dragons, some of scouts risk becoming dragon food, may take many turns to find 1 dragon. Then turnomancer+army or some expensive combo of units to trap dragon, often including units to poison/weaken [to reduce resistance], more to freeze or otherwise bring down to ground and yet more units with some sort of turning chance, and dragons having high resistance takes luck to make it all work before dragon is dead from injuries or your army is dead from injuries or you have to retreat and try again another turn. If you lose your turnomancer or units with freeze/trap type attacks due to bad luck, you cry. )

[Nnelg]

So then...

From your description, could we compare the 'Hammer to an infinite supply of master balls?

[Lamech]

Not to mention that if Gobwinknob couldn't pop dwagons before then that would mean their cities should be able to pop something else at level 3; the fact that they pop dwagons would mean that GK had to sacrifice a unit type to get their dwagons... Why should GK have to sacrifice a unit type to get the hammer's choice of unit? That sounds like a downisde and the tools are not known for having downsides; you can argue its still a net gain, but they still have to give up something to get something. Unlike wand and her decrypted as wanda doesn't have to give up anything except for the lives of her enemies, and the lives of her own units which are not truly lost at all.

Who is to say they could pop anything else at level three. They don't get a level 4 or level 5 unit.

Decryption only works that effectively while the wielder is able to be present withing range of the fighting. A Ruler-wielder... And yes it's faster than the other Tool's methods, but more effective?

Because they're free to maintain and because the Arkenpliars appear to be giving them an Artifact bonus. As for death arrangement has the same range problem as with the fighting. There's a reason Goodminton couldn't keep Wanda at the Capital. And before you mention relays, that can only work with a Ruler if you have Archons, Decrypted or otherwise,

One: You don't need archons, just a method to penetrate veils. So a hatamancer does the trick nicely. Or a foolamancer. Or any caster that can do something similar. Or any unit with similar veil penetrating abilities as too the archons. Or shmuckers to pay one to make you an item, or buy the correct unit type. So I don't think that too many sides will be lacking in the ability to form a relay.
Two: You can always ferry the corpses to the ruler. Some units: Bats, Orilies small stuff, will fit through hats in not too many pieces. Other units can be dragged around in a wagon, or floated on heavier fliers (unipegaturs, megalogwiffs, dwagons). Heavy units would take big resources to move, a few dwagons can float a dwagon away.

So a ruler can set up a system to get units to them. It would probably take a lot of units to set up. But no upkeep and once everything is being scoured for wild units popping, and natural sides, and ruin teams... you should be getting a good income of new units.