4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:03 am

The other reason is if FAQ was nearly surrounded by Haffaton, with the non-surrounded side being towards the other sides we've seen.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Whispri » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:01 am

Two problems with that, firstly surrounding Faq means occupying at least part of the territory controlled by future era Gobwin Knob, including certain Volcanoe lair. This alone puts Haffaton very close to Jetstone.

The second problem is that Jillian must have heard stories of Wanda from Sides much further away from Faq than Jetstone, as she only works for Sides who are far away. Even if Jetstone counts as far away, she can't be hearing such tales from Sides much closer to home, for if Jetstone's lands do not border those of Haffaton, their immediate neighbours' surely must.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Nnelg » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:44 am

Whispri wrote:There may well be meta reasons involved, but nevertheless, there must be in-Universe reasons for the silence. Wanda's reputation is particularly relevant to the matters staring the Jetstone in the face, i.e. Wanda and her army.

If I'm correct, your logic is as follows:
1. IF there are in-universe reasons for silence THEN nobody will talk about Haffaton.
2. Nobody talks about Haffaton.
3. THEREFORE there are in-universe reasons for silence.

But you're affirming the consequent; and that's a logical fallacy. (Not that it's a discredit to you, though; it's a fairly common one that's easy to slip up with if you're not paying very close attention.)

Here's my logic:
1. IFF there are meta reasons for silence OR there are in-universe reasons for silence THEN nobody will talk about Haffaton.
2. THEREFORE IFF nobody will talk about Haffaton THEN there are meta reasons for silence OR there are in-universe reasons for silence. (inclusive OR)
3. Nobody talks about Haffaton.
4. There are meta reasons for silence.
5. THEREFORE there is nothing we can say from the given data about whether or not there are in-universe reasons for silence.

Of course, it's also a fallacy to affirm a disjunct, so it's still possible that there's in-universe reasons for silence in addition to the meta reasons; but it may or may not be more likely than just meta reasons alone.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:02 am

Whispri wrote:Two problems with that, firstly surrounding Faq means occupying at least part of the territory controlled by future era Gobwin Knob, including certain Volcanoe lair. This alone puts Haffaton very close to Jetstone.


Fine. Nothing I've read indicates that Jetstone never bordered Haffaton. GK could have been around then, and bordered them.

What's so bad about this? Why would you expect Haffaton to be such a topic of conversation that it must have come up by now?
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:22 am

Well, as has been suggested in this thread, the ability to hide the meaning of something (Signamancy, as opposed to Foolamancy which changes its appearance), or the ability to make people not care about things (Flower Power), are both firmly entrenched in Hippiemancy territory. That theory was brought up with regard to how the Fourth Arkentool is being hidden; it could also explain the silence surrounding the fall of Haffaton. How's this for a theory: Marie's Prediction was that Haffaton would destroy Faq. Now, we know that's not technically true, though depending on whether you think Wanda counts as Haffaton, it might be. However, it's been shown that not every Prediction will come true, and that sufficient power can change that.

Supposing that some poor, foolish, arrogant Unit got hold of the Fourth Arkentool. Suppose that Unit was Olive Branch. And suppose that she was so stupid, so foolishly arrogant, that she began experimenting with the power it held to see if she could use its connection with Signamancy to transform Haffaton into the most powerful Side in Erfworld. And suppose that she did it wrong.
An attuned weilder trying to truly change the face of Erfrworld without knowing what she was doing could be catastrophic, if she tapped into the true potential of the Arkentools without understanding what she was doing. Haffaton might not have been defeated by an enemy side - they could literally cease to exist, wiped from the face of Erfworld itself, with the Arkentool becoming lost after their fall, perhaps falling into the Magic Kingdom afterwards.
That's why nobody talks about Haffaton now - they simply don't remember that Haffaton ever was. The Arkentool was used to attempt to control the theoretical, Titanic Power of Retconjuration by a caster who thought she could handle it, but without the other three Arkentools to balance that power she was unmade by it. They are not remembered, not by anyone, and the only living Units in Erfworld who might have remembered them otherwise- Jillian, Jack, Janis and Wanda - have been left with a crippling fear of Fate that they don't truly understand. All that they're sure of is that the Arkentools weild a power that will forever change the face of Erfworld. Wanda wants this to happen, though she no longer remembers why. Jack is too broken to know what he wants any more. Janis feels it's unavoidable, and wants that power in the hands of Parson where it will be put to good use. And Jillian wants to stop it at all costs, but can't understand why she feels it's her Duty.

Wildly unsubstantiated theory, but whadd'ya think?
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Nnelg » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:44 am

The whole "use of arkentool backfired" seems plausible to me; but we'll need more data on post-Goodminton Haffaton to see if Olive's a tool or not. Even if we don't see it though, we won't get negative confirmation of this theory for a while yet.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:00 am

Selexor I love that theory. Agreed that it's wild speculation, but I love it anyway!
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby effataigus » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:26 am

I like it too, Selexor!

I don't think it's correct because Rob made such a big deal about retconjuration being out of reach of Erfworlders utterly... but I like it!
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:32 am

Well just because Retconjuration is out of the reach of erfworlders doesn't mean it couldn't be the source of a "backlash" for a caster improperly tampering with Signamancy.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby effataigus » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:35 am

0beron wrote:Well just because Retconjuration is out of the reach of erfworlders doesn't mean it couldn't be the source of a "backlash" for a caster improperly tampering with Signamancy.


Indeed. Also, Rob is flirting with the idea a lil' bit... consider the last couple lines of: http://www.erfworld.com/2011/11/inner-p ... isode-011/
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:37 am

OOOOOOOOOH! I forgot about thaaaaat! Yeah, Selecor...your theory just got a lot more possible haha. (True, it could also be Rob's way of stating in-comic that it doesn't exist...but still)
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:35 am

It's also possible that if Olive is a regular visitor to the Magic Kingdom, she might have heard of the theory of Retconjuration. That seems to be what the Arkentools are ultimately for, after all - what is reshaping the nature of Erfworld, if not Retconjuration itself? So take a very high-level caster who's a little too sure of herself, who's heard rumours of Retconjuration, and who's stupid enough to try and do it when Attuned without the other Tools to help out... that's what happens when a Unit tries to claim Titanic power before it's good and ready.

Of course, Signamancy screwups could do the same. Olive tries to make Haffaton contain all the power of Erfworld, but succeeds to changing Haffaton to be dispersed into Erfworld itself down to the atomic scale, negating the side's existence.

I like the idea of Retconjuration better, and that little link is a big shot in the arm for an otherwise-insane theory. It probably won't play out, but I'd love it to!
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby drachefly » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:16 pm

Olive, unlike Stanley or Wanda, is not a name of a major tool company.

On the other hand, Charlie isn't the name of a major tool company either.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:21 pm

drachefly wrote:On the other hand, Charlie isn't the name of a major tool company either.

Actually, the founder of Dish Network is apparently a Charlie Ergen. However, I don't think that's necessarily a requirement since Olive isn't in the picture anymore. We expect the current attuned users to have tool-names.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby drachefly » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:15 pm

Yeah - the further off you get from Parson, the less 'safe and familiar' you could expect things to be. Or perhaps it's the further from Wanda's experience.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Housellama » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:50 pm

I like the way the backlash theory is heading, but there's a problem with it. Retconjuration doesn't just remove the thing affected, it removes the memory of the thing as well. To put it in the form of logic.

Haffaton was retconned by the 4th Tool
Retcon removes the entire existence of the object.
THEREFORE, Haffaton never existed.

The logic works. But it doesn't deal with what I see as the two main problems with the 4th Tool. How do people know about it? and Why don't people talk about it? There's nothing in the Retconning of Haffaton that answers either of those. If the knowledge of the Tool itself wasn't affected by the Retcon, then why don't people talk about it? If the knowledge was Retconned as well, how do people know about it?

It's an interesting theory, but it fails to address the in-world anomalies this thread was created to explore.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:19 pm

Not neccessarily. The 'Tool, as a work of the Titans, would obviously be immune to the Retconning of Haffaton, so it would survive and remain somewhere.
Because the only way Erflings would know WHAT it does is from experience of Haffaton, they lost that knowledge of it when Haffaton is Retconned. But because the 'Tools are so important to Erfworld as a whole, Erflings would have knowledge of it's existence from sources other than Haffaton.
This way, Erflings are left with knowledge of the fact that a 4th 'Tool exists...but no idea of what it is or does.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Housellama » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:34 pm

0beron wrote:Not neccessarily. The 'Tool, as a work of the Titans, would obviously be immune to the Retconning of Haffaton, so it would survive and remain somewhere.
Because the only way Erflings would know WHAT it does is from experience of Haffaton, they lost that knowledge of it when Haffaton is Retconned. But because the 'Tools are so important to Erfworld as a whole, Erflings would have knowledge of it's existence from sources other than Haffaton.
This way, Erflings are left with knowledge of the fact that a 4th 'Tool exists...but no idea of what it is or does.


This still doesn't account for the knowledge of and/or not talking about the 'Tool itself. If we assume that Haffaton was the first one to unearth/discover the 'Tool, then what knowledge of it remains when they are removed? And if they didn't discover the 'Tool and another side had already unearthed it, what stops people from talk about it? And even if Haffaton did discover it first and everything but its existence was removed, why is there no speculation about it? Even Parson appears to be affected. His normally inquisitive nature is completely subverted when it comes to the 4th 'Tool. The theory about Retconning Haffaton can explain either one or the other but not both.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:10 pm

No, it could be universally known simply that there are 4 'Tools. This may be in the "religious texts" that pop in city libraries, or ingrained knowledge in all units, and this knowledge would have nothing to do with anyone witnessing a 'Tool being used.
As for the lack of inquisitiveness about it, this could be unrelated to the Retconjuration. An artifact keyed to Signamancy could conceal it's purpose by changing it's appearance, or somehow "discourage" inquiry about it. Signamancy has been rather broadly defined as essentially governing the idea of "form = function". If you make your form something that should be ignored...you are ignored.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Housellama » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:32 pm

0beron wrote:No, it could be universally known simply that there are 4 'Tools. This may be in the "religious texts" that pop in city libraries, or ingrained knowledge in all units, and this knowledge would have nothing to do with anyone witnessing a 'Tool being used.
As for the lack of inquisitiveness about it, this could be unrelated to the Retconjuration. An artifact keyed to Signamancy could conceal it's purpose by changing it's appearance, or somehow "discourage" inquiry about it. Signamancy has been rather broadly defined as essentially governing the idea of "form = function". If you make your form something that should be ignored...you are ignored.


Right. I've got no problem with it being something other than the Retcon. My point was that the Retcon ALONE wasn't enough to cover everything. Sure, the Retcon could happen, but it's not the ONLY thing going on.
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