4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

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4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:32 pm

I just had a thought while pondering the Arkentools already in play.
'Pliers: Croakamancy (Fate, Motion/Matter)
'Dish: Thinkamancy (Fate, Life/Motion)
'Hammer: Carnymancy (Fate, Life/Motion/Matter)
(I'm of the camp that thinks the 'Hammer is Carnymancy)

If the 4th tool were to be aligned with Signamancy, then it would also match Fate, and cover Life/Matter (the only remaining combo of 2 elements). This also makes sense given that Sizemore (one probable candidate for the 4th 'Tool) is so interested in learning Hippiemancy.

Also, it's been hypothesized before that the 4 'Tools will eventually be brought together to literally re-create/change Erfworld to end warfare. Wanda's Life-Infringing-Croakamancy could hold the key to recreating life, Charlie's Matter-Infringing-Thinkamancy could change the way creatures think/interact, Sizemore's Magic-Infringing-Signamancy could change the way things are (Natural Signamancy is the magic of outward appearance matching inner being) and Stanley's Carnymancy provides the flashy production values and means to cheat the Titans themselves.

Anyone have some thoughts on this? Supporting evidence, contradictions, ect?
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Housellama » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:53 pm

0beron wrote:I just had a thought while pondering the Arkentools already in play.
'Pliers: Croakamancy (Fate, Motion/Matter)
'Dish: Thinkamancy (Fate, Life/Motion)
'Hammer: Carnymancy (Fate, Life/Motion/Matter)
(I'm of the camp that thinks the 'Hammer is Carnymancy)

If the 4th tool were to be aligned with Signamancy, then it would also match Fate, and cover Life/Matter (the only remaining combo of 2 elements). This also makes sense given that Sizemore (one probable candidate for the 4th 'Tool) is so interested in learning Hippiemancy.

Also, it's been hypothesized before that the 4 'Tools will eventually be brought together to literally re-create/change Erfworld to end warfare. Wanda's Life-Infringing-Croakamancy could hold the key to recreating life, Charlie's Matter-Infringing-Thinkamancy could change the way creatures think/interact, Sizemore's Magic-Infringing-Signamancy could change the way things are (Natural Signamancy is the magic of outward appearance matching inner being) and Stanley's Carnymancy provides the flashy production values and means to cheat the Titans themselves.

Anyone have some thoughts on this? Supporting evidence, contradictions, ect?


Tangent to this. The thing that has messed with me about the Arkentools since it was confirmed that at least four existed is that the 4th one has never been mentioned. Everyone knows about the first three. Everyone knows Charlie has the 'Dish, everyone knows Stanley found the 'Hammer, everyone knew that Jetstone kept the 'Pliers. Yet there's never been any mention at all of the 4th. Yet, Parson's StupidMeal confirmed that there are 4 KNOWN Arkentools. Which means that Erfworlders must know about it. And since everyone knows what the first three are, it makes sense that Erfworlders know what the 4th one is as well.

Yet it's never been mentioned. Why? Even Parson, who given his normally inquisitive nature should have asked about it, never did. Even when Toolism became a huge thing, no one has mentioned the 4th KNOWN tool. Yet it is stated by the StupidMeal to be known. I'm not a believer that the Portals are the 4th tool. They strike me as an integral part of the world rather than something 'external' like a Tool.

Rob doesn't miss details. If he stated that there were 4 known tools, then there are 4 known tools, and I can't believe that he just hasn't mentioned the 4th tool for a reason as mundane as "it's never come up". Someone should have said something about it by now. Even if it is known and not claimed, that should have been said by someone when Toolism became such a huge thing. Even if it is known that four exist but no other details, someone (ie Parson) should have asked by now. Especially when he found out how big a game-changer the Attuned 'Pliers were.

There's something here. Chekhov's Gun is hanging on the wall (by omission) and something is going to happen with it.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:11 pm

Excellent point, this has really bothered me as well but I haven't been able to think of any theory! I agree that it must be intentional, but what is meant by it is completely beyond me. There may be something in it's very nature that prevents it from being spoken of, which might make sense under Signamancy...
Perhaps because it controls Signamancy, it is impossible for anyone to accurately remember the 4th 'Tool, because it's true nature is beyond comprehension, or constantly changing. It's a hard concept to express in words, especially given that what explanations we have been given of Signamancy are very vague and subjective. What is clear however is that unlike Stupidworld, things in Erfworld ARE what they seem...so if something's very purpose is to cause change, it may not have any Signamancy of its own.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Mrtyuh » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:02 pm

Concerning your theory that the fourth Arkentool is aligned with Signamancy, I think it is very interesting. I don't really have anything to add, but I think you may be onto something.

As for the dearth of information concerning the fourth Arkentool, I don't think there is anything sinister or strange happening. We, the readers, have only witnessed a fraction of what Parson has experienced. As we could see from the Klogs in Book 2, he has assimilated tons of information about Erfworld. I find it entirely plausible that Parson know the details about the fourth Arkentool, but, for narrative reasons, the information has not been revealed to the readers. There is much we do not know. Was Charlie the first to ever attune to a Tool? Have there been attuned every generation, or is this a new phenomenon? We know every Prince of Jetstone held the Arkenpliers in hopes of attunement, but did that only start after Charlie attuned? If attunement is recent, did it come as a surprise, or were there myths about it? With all the recent attunement, particularly two to one side, are there people like Harold Camping running around claiming the end is nigh?

This is all information Erfworlders would know, but I do not have any problem with the fact that this information has not been revealed to the readers. Wanda commented to Jillian that Charlie and the Arkendish would be the last to be pursued, which indicates that Gobwin Knob intends to pursue the fourth Tool next. I think the fourth Tool will become a greater plot point as the story progresses. Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby JDF117 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:06 am

I'd frankly be surprised if the 4th tool wasn't a future plot point. It's importance in the Erf is just too big to be overlooked. That being said, I don't think that our lack of knowlege of it is coincidental. Maybe it's aligned with Retconjuration or Foolamancy, and it's attuned owner does not want to be the target of power grabs and assassination attempts.

Of course, it could always just be locked away in the MK, and not talked about because there were more important things at hand. Parson's curiosity notwithstanding, he's had a lot on his mind. First adjusting to the new system, then Misty, the encroaching Jetstone, and his free will issues probably left him with little time to let his mind wander to relatively unimportant details.

This doesn't, however, justify why he didn't ask during Ansom's tenure as Chief Warlord. The roof scene with him, Maggie, and Sizemore would have provided the perfect narritive framing for the question. That the tool is never mentioned except in cursory one-liners suggests some sort of compulsion.

I always pictured it as a Shockamancy/Luckamancy NES controller myself though.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby gobe » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:48 am

I like the idea for a signamancy-aligned tool. It might explain why we've had little knowledge of the magical discipline of signamancy up to now (as opposed to natural signamancy). It leaves room for surprises when the tool shows up. On the other hand, it would make sense that we have a good knowledge of a discipline first, before we encounter the tool, so that its superior power is obvious, as is the case with the pliers and the dish.

So what would a signamancy tool be like? I like the idea of a paint brush, personally. But it could also be a chisel (combo with the hammer!!), sandpaper (pretty funny), or even varnish. All these would imply additional effects outside the main discipline like most of the other tools.

What do you guys imagine would be a good signamancy tool?
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Kaed » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:56 pm

I'm more inclined to think it's going to be a Changemancy Arkentool, possibly that Sizemore gets hold of, or maybe even the missing Unaroyal caster, (Bowie?) who is apparently a Changemancer. Around the time it is introduced we will finally get an explanation of Changemancy.

/briefly rants about how undefined some of the magic disciplines are.

/endrant

Though personally I expect it's something like alchemy. Dirtamancy moves around Stuff, Dittomancy copies it, while Changemancy... changes what it is. Which would definitely play into Fate, its axis.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:06 pm

If it is Signamancy-aligned, I suspect it might not actually HAVE a defined form. But if it does, I'd suspect it's still the 'Shovel as has been suggested before, because I'm betting Sizemore will be it's attuned user and the IRL references of Sizemore's name include the patent owner for the first shovel. Also because the 'Hammer and 'Pliers don't have appearances matching their function, and even the 'Dish is slightly stretched in terms of form matching function.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Housellama » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:51 pm

0beron wrote:I just had a thought while pondering the Arkentools already in play.
'Pliers: Croakamancy (Fate, Motion/Matter)
'Dish: Thinkamancy (Fate, Life/Motion)
'Hammer: Carnymancy (Fate, Life/Motion/Matter)
(I'm of the camp that thinks the 'Hammer is Carnymancy)

If the 4th tool were to be aligned with Signamancy, then it would also match Fate, and cover Life/Matter (the only remaining combo of 2 elements). This also makes sense given that Sizemore (one probable candidate for the 4th 'Tool) is so interested in learning Hippiemancy.

<cut>

Anyone have some thoughts on this? Supporting evidence, contradictions, ect?


Actually, when I went back and looked at this, Signamancy is a fantastic idea. I can't see a 'Tool covering just a single element and Signamancy is the one unfilled slot there. And a Signamancy 'Tool could easily hide itself more or less anywhere. Hide in plain sight and keep people from talking or thinking about it.

However, I think you've got the attuned person wrong. Sizemore is good at Dirtamancy, but sucks at everything else, and Parson was said to be a Hippymancer. (Personally, I strongly believe Janis was telling the truth in the MK but YMMV). Parson is also the person who is in the best place to really make the best USE of a Signamancy 'Tool. He gets all the references and could easily make new ones. Give Parson a 'tool that can manipulate Signamancy and suddenly he's not just a great general, but a force in his own right. Plus, he's the only real MAJOR player without a 'Tool. Charlie and Stanley are both Overlords, and Wanda is a major player in her own right even before she got her 'Tool. Sizemore is an important character in the story, but not a major player.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:44 pm

oh WOW! You're really right, that actually makes a lot of sense, the tidbit about Parson is something I had forgotten!
I previously discounted it being Parson cus that seemed too cliche...but that TINY, somewhat now long-forgotten mention of him being a Hippiemancer is just the kind of subtle hint Rob likes to use. Great point.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:04 am

Perhaps it goes one link further as well, regarding the silence on the object. Everyone in Efrworld knows of the Fourth Arkentool, but nobody has appeared weilding it. And nobody talks about it. And nobody expects it to be involved in the War of the Arkentools. So, the question is:

Where would one find something is very important, but nobody can really be bothered about, is never used for battle, and cannot be collected by those who might want it?

And the most obvious answer I can think of:

In the possession of the Hippiemancers of the Magic Kingdom.

It explains everything: where it is, why nobody's gone hunting for it, why it's not being used in any obvious (read: war-related) manner, and the more subtle effects of Hippiemancy and Flower Power could even be used to make people "not care" about it as much as they should.

I freely admit that it's got zero evidence in-canon, but it does make a bit of sense...
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby 0beron » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:50 am

OOOOOOOOOH!

That is SO good! Bravo!
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:35 am

Well, I was trying to figure out where it is. If it had an attuned weilder, then it'd almost certainly be brought up in the War of the Arkentools at some point - either the weilder would not be a Royal side, in which case Gobwin Knob would have tried to ally with them, or they would be Royal, in which case the RCC would have. If it was owned by a side that did NOT have an attuned weilder, then either Gobwin Knob or the RCC would most likely have attacked that side in an attempt to lay claim to the Arkentool. And either way, it would have made much more strategic sense to have done this before the battle between Jetstone and Gobwin Knob in order to bolster the forces of either side.
Therefore, it's most likely not owned by any side that can be attacked. If the Arkentool were simply lost then someone (most likely Charlie) would have hired Findamancers and Lookamancers by the bushel to track it down, so it's probably in the possession of someone. It's unlikely that any side is so distant as to be totally unaffected by the current wars going on, so it's one that's completely neutral and has no reason to fear immediate assault.

All of this was making fairly good sense until I was stumped by the problem of, "Why is nobody even discussing the Fourth Arkentool?" Even if all of the above was true, surely it'd have come up in conversation at some point. And yet nobody seems to even care about its existence. Which, of course, is when I read this thread suggesting tie-ins to Signamancy - and Hippiemancy covers both Signamancy and Flower Power which, very specifically, has spells that can make people lose focus and not care about certain things.
That was the final piece of the puzzle. The Arkentool is something everyone knows about but that nobody cares about. It's powerful and significant, but nobody has the slightest expectation that it'll be used by any side in battle. It's not lost, and everyone knows where it is, but nobody can possibly hope to claim it. It's instead held by the very definition of a Neutral Side - a group who oppose war in all its forms and is not affiliated to any side at all, while being perfectly safe from any attack.

Add it all up, and the Hippiemancers are the only possible guardians of the Fourth Arkentool. Unless I'm missing something (and I probably am).
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby drachefly » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:44 pm

Selexor wrote: either the weilder would not be a Royal side, in which case Gobwin Knob would have tried to ally with them, or they would be Royal, in which case the RCC would have.


First does not follow at all. It was the royals who wanted to make a big deal out of royalty - GK just wanted another tool.

The second only applies if the other tool is nearby. Could just be well out of the way.

Think about Charlie - they wanted him because of his power, not the tool.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:39 am

I agree that Gobwin Knob wouldn't have cared much if the other side was Royal, but it's highly likely they would have offered to ally with any other side who was known to hold an Arkentool. Certainly if they're willing to offer a treaty to Jetstone, who's essentially their most hated enemy, they'd be willing to offer the same to anyone else.
However, whether or not the other side was Royalty would definitely influence Jetstone's actions. They need powerful allies, as many as they can get, to end the threat of Gobwin Knob. A Royal side weilding an attuned Arkentool? They'd be all over that. And if they were a non-Royal side with an attuned weilder, they'd be right up there with Charlie, Stanley and Wanda on King Slately's hate-list.

Ultimately, though, the whole point I was making was that none of that is that applicable if my theory holds out. If you try to come up with a side, any side, even one clear across Erfworld, who might be weilding an Arkentool, it still doesn't explain why the main players in this War haven't at least tried to get them on-side. Royal or not, distant or local. You're right, the main players only like Charlie for his power, but they'd feel the same over any attuned Tool.
Which is why the only reasonable explanation I can think of for them not worrying about it is that the Tool is not attuned to anyone, and held by someone who poses no threat as ally or enemy - and the only candidates I can think of are the Hippiemancers.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby drachefly » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:32 am

Jetstone is their hated enemy NOW. They weren't before they went questing after the arkentools - they strongly disapproved of each other.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Selexor » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:44 am

True, but I don't see how that's relevant to the chain of logic I was following. I can't speculate as to why nobody went to war with the Fourth Arkentool in the past. I can only speculate as to why it's not being brought to battle now. And now, as you say, is when Jetstone is the hated enemy of Gobwin Knob.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby ftl » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:43 am

There's also out-of-character speculation to be had. As he was writing book 1, Rob did not yet know whether this venture would be successful at all, or whether there would even *be* a book 2. A possible ending to book 1 could have involved Sizemore attuning to a tool - like the other tool-wielders, he had a name that is a tool company, so if that happened, it would have been foreshadowing. However, since book 1 was a success, there was no longer a need to wrap up the story by giving Sizemore the fourth tool. So it got retconjured into something else.

I bet that Rob knows exactly what's going on with that fourth tool, and obviously there's going to be an in-story explanation, but that's one possible out-of-story reason why it turned hidden.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby Housellama » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:26 pm

ftl wrote:There's also out-of-character speculation to be had. As he was writing book 1, Rob did not yet know whether this venture would be successful at all, or whether there would even *be* a book 2.


I don't get this feeling at all. Rob doesn't strike me as the quitting type. I've known a lot of writers, including several published, professional authors, and this doesn't feel like a speculative story. That he's just making it up as he goes along. This feels like a story that's already been told and is just now being put down on paper. My best friend Jess has published several short stories and done a lot of professional freelance writing and is currently shopping her first novel. She tells me that there are times where the story is just bursting to get out. That the story wrote itself and she was just the typist, much like the sculptor that simply removed the excess stone. That's what this feels like to me. I'd put money on the fact that Rob has this story already planned out a long way in advance.

I bet that Rob knows exactly what's going on with that fourth tool, and obviously there's going to be an in-story explanation, but that's one possible out-of-story reason why it turned hidden.[/quote]

Oh, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind Rob knows what's going on. All three 'Tools that have been seen were seen fairly early in Book 1. That a fourth one was mentioned but never used is something he did on purpose. Maybe I'm giving Rob too much credit, but I doubt it. He's impressed me every step of the way.
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Re: 4th Arkentool covers Signamancy?

Postby vintermann » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:54 am

I think this about a signamancy/hippiemancy related tool that somehow conceals itself is a promising theory. And I think maybe we've seen it already:

The Chillax.

It could also explain the troublesome problem of how a bubble kingdom side like Faq came to be.

I am of the belief that Faq isn't yet a bubble kingdom in the prequel. Faq is a larger kingdom, with more than 3 cities, involved with its neighbours like all other sides. It is powerful hippiemancy which allows them to eventually retreat from all but the 3 sheltered ones, and make their neighbors forget they existed. Olive is attuned to it, and helped create Faq as we know it - possibly joining it, but probably not.

Note that it seems Haffaton have been able to conceal from their enemies the exact nature of their casters (it was only rumored that there was a hippiemancer), and the Chillax spell also came as a complete surprise to Goodminton. The Chillax hasn't been mentioned since, although Olive has.

A problem with this theory is that an instrument isn't commonly thought of as a tool, and there's no company that I know of named Olive or Branch which makes instruments.
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