Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:42 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:So far, it's been said in comic that it is impossible to fight at night. So then why searchlights?
It's very hard to be sure that there isn't some heavily veiled unit somewhere up there spying on you. I suspect a doombat could easily hide and watch unless heavy precautions are taken. Searching the sky may also help train the troops in being observant.

Lipkin wrote:And why are Charlie's forces mustered for war in the dead of night?
I expect that they are training. The more they train, the better they get, and since they work for Charlie that may mean they train at all hours.

Lipkin wrote:No one knows where Charlie's capitol is.
Where do we know that from?

technojunkie wrote:Lookamancy was the component of the SPW spell that allowed location of the target.
Surely that should be Findamancy. We haven't seen much of Findamancy, but judging from its name it should be the discipline that finds things.

Do scouts not trigger the Ruler's senses? Shouldn't they be aware of enemy forces in the city?

Seems like training at night shouldn't work. Doesn't seem like something that could happen off turn, otherwise, why wouldn't everyone do it?

I seemed to remember the Decrypted Archons telling Parson that Charlie's level 5 city was hidden. On review, I was mistaken.





Had another thought about Charlie. We've been theorizing that Gk is going to end up allied with TV, after Caesar takes over. But it just occurred to me that Charlie will very obviously know of Caesar's increasing dissatisfaction. All of Casesar's interaction with Bunny was via Thinkogram after all, and the chief warlord of TV would be a high priority to listen in on. Charlie could tip off Don, or back Caesar's take over, at his whim.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby technojunkie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:45 pm

Lilwik wrote:
technojunkie wrote:Lookamancy was the component of the SPW spell that allowed location of the target.
Surely that should be Findamancy. We haven't seen much of Findamancy, but judging from its name it should be the discipline that finds things.

You're right, I just got done looking up the entries where the spell was cast.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:49 pm

technojunkie wrote:You're right, I just got done looking up the entries where the spell was cast.

Actually, that's the subject of a continuity error that has never been cleared up. Look/Find were both cited as having involvement in the creation of the spell, as well as think and predict. Since links can only have 3 casters involved, it's unclear what this means.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Zeku » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:07 pm

I'm going to be brutally honest here, Erfworld has stalled.

That isn't to say that the pace needs to be increased, that isn't the problem at all. (Especially given the year Parson spent getting across the MK, all of which was quite entertaining)

It's just the whole 'What is Charlie really up to?' and 'Are they going to fight each other now?' is getting pretty ragged at this point.

Charlie needs to be dead or Parson's best friend within the year. Or at LEAST, we need to know what his story is. A new direction is required.

Only Rob can decide what that direction is, because only he knows what Erfworld "really is."

Erfworld of times past has been a conflict between two minds, both of which serve as magnetic poles, with all of the actual action taking place between these two poles, among lesser characters.

Above anything else, if Rob's going to treat Parson as a real character, and not as a straight man that everyone bounces off of, then we need to know why he is participating in this war. If I were in his position, I would be concentrating my attention on information gathering, and (at this point) settling in, not continuing to pave his imaginary play-world with blood and dust.

Edit: I understand he does not have a choice, but people still have motivations, and if Parson were truly just a slave to Stanley's ambition, he would be more depressed than he is right now.
Last edited by Zeku on Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Zeku » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:14 pm

Lipkin wrote:
technojunkie wrote:You're right, I just got done looking up the entries where the spell was cast.

Actually, that's the subject of a continuity error that has never been cleared up. Look/Find were both cited as having involvement in the creation of the spell, as well as think and predict. Since links can only have 3 casters involved, it's unclear what this means.


Lookamancy is observing everything, especially many moving objects, (such as the strategy table) finding is isolating a particular thing, in any context. Both might be necessary in something like a summoning spell. Possibly Lookamancy is used in spell creation, (to give the Findamancer the ability to look in many places) and Findamancy is the actual casting discipline. That isn't the Word of God, but it's a rational explanation, and frankly it doesn't seem super important. It's probably one of those things he wishes he could retconjure, but it's not a serious problem.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:57 pm

Definitely interesting to see how Charlie's modern-army of Archons does. We kind of have a poor look at them based on the Jetstone battle, but in that situation they were outnumbered, being attacked from both the garrison and tower (along with a full outpouring of hat-magic), facing a high-level Warlord and ruler possessing a variety of dollamancy toys along with a trio of casters (Pierce and Lloyd having especially handy combat magic), caught out of formation, and they were lacking external orders and Charlie's personal bonus, which he can apparently convey at will to Archons just by focusing on a fight. Even with all that stacked against them, they still managed to croak Slately and Ossomer.

Archons are deadly flying death-machines, and apparently Charlie's focusing on making them even deadlier, but what does any of that matter if he can't beat the 'real' enemy he's facing? Fate. Parson's a Fate-guided missile with Charlie's name on it. That seems to be where the real tricks are laying in wait. It's a pretty terrifying opponent come to think of it, Fate, but it's also why Charlie is the only being on Erfworld who can put up a decent fight now that we've seen so much about how damned inexorable it. Parson may be able to bend the rules, but Charlie can break them.

I'm betting we'll see what Charlie did to Jillian back in Book 0 come into play again. If 'Fate' is that only true enemy, then she may now lack that certain quality that keeps her from fighting it. I can definitely see what Janis was on about. Erfworld is about to endure an unstoppable force hitting an immovable object.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby cheeseaholic » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:12 am

Does anyone else find it amusing that Charlie is focusing on using modern technology and Parson is focusing on magic? I think they both look at the other system and see how they can break things so easily using it.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby name lips » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:36 am

I think Charlies "motives" revolve more around what we saw when he was inside Jillian's head. There's an Enemy out there... the only Enemy worth fighting. Fate? Titans? Something darker and more sinister?

Once we know that, we'll understand him a lot better.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:16 am

Pretty much confirmation that Charlie is also from "Stupidworld", . . . or is it?.

Love the art on that final panel, that is special sauce!.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby ftl » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:21 am

Hah. That was an impressive finish to the epilogues. I didn't watch most of the previous ones, but I see why this one really had to be a video, and it was much better for it.

I think I might be the only one who doesn't think that the weaponry, specifically, is the big threat here. Yeah, they might have better stats with guns or whatnot. And it made for a damn impressive last scene. But Parson can make his own weapons with a dollamancer, and archon blasts weren't any worse than bullets in the first place. Guns will still be weaker than magic, and it's magic and bonus multipliers that decide battles.

But the sight of a Charlescomm army preparing for an all-out war - now that's a fearsome sight. Those golems and archons that Parson learned about are now going to be on the march, aimed at him, backed by tri-link power. And archons are already pretty badass, and now they're WAR ARCHONS.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:34 am

Tonot wrote:Pretty much confirmation that Charlie is also from "Stupidworld", . . . or is it?.

Love the art on that final panel, that is special sauce!.

I think it's equally possible he just gets satellite television. When you are using magic to create things, you only need to see them in action to make magic versions of them.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:38 am

ftl wrote:Hah. That was an impressive finish to the epilogues. I didn't watch most of the previous ones, but I see why this one really had to be a video, and it was much better for it.

I think I might be the only one who doesn't think that the weaponry, specifically, is the big threat here. Yeah, they might have better stats with guns or whatnot. And it made for a damn impressive last scene. But Parson can make his own weapons with a dollamancer, and archon blasts weren't any worse than bullets in the first place. Guns will still be weaker than magic, and it's magic and bonus multipliers that decide battles.

But the sight of a Charlescomm army preparing for an all-out war - now that's a fearsome sight. Those golems and archons that Parson learned about are now going to be on the march, aimed at him, backed by tri-link power. And archons are already pretty badass, and now they're WAR ARCHONS.


since these are archons we're talking about, I'm guessing the guns ARE magic, or that the ammo is. The ability to store magic-blast ammo over multiple turns, then fire it all at once will be huge.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:02 am

Wars are always about bringing more force to bear on your enemy than they can handle. It is the point at which every exceptional General of history outclassed his opponents, Napoleon is the obvious example. His genius was revealed time and again as preparation for, detection of the opportunity to, and then application of bringing force to bear.
Every successful General can be reduced to that calculation, planned exertion of force, if you do it with the right planning, it is just a calculation, you win.

So if Charlie has overwhelming firepower that is massively more manoeuvrable, how can GN hope to stop him?. He can scout Parsons movements, then choose his moment and just crack the nut. Is there some mechanic that stops him simply dropping all his Angels onto Wanda and Parson all at once?.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby multilis » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:14 am

MonteCristo wrote:Minor plot hole though... Parson can refuse to answer charlie if he thinks there is a danger to his side.

I guess this is about force multipliers, similar to Ossomer turning as soon as Wanda left the hex. The more Charlie is viewed as enemy, the more that adds risk factor to info. If the total risk factor is greater than a large number, that can override a contract, but the number has to be large. (In this case, Charlie just tried to kill Parson with inferno trap so enemy status is near max)

In similar way, Charlie feels more comfortable sharing info with Jetstone than with Parson.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:03 am

multilis wrote:If the total risk factor is greater than a large number, that can override a contract, but the number has to be large. (In this case, Charlie just tried to kill Parson with inferno trap so enemy status is near max)
I agree, and even further, from what we've seen about Charlie and contracts I doubt that Charlie would leave much room for Parson to get out of doing the calculations. Parson probably needs very specific conditions under which he can refuse a calculation, and it might not even be possible. I notice that Parson did actually end up giving Charlie the calculation. All we are seeing here is Parson's strong desire to not give Charlie calculations, which is very understandable in the situation, but it counts for nothing if Parson still gives the calculation in the end. I expect something very similar happened when Charlie had Parson calculate the number of Archons needed to take Gobwin Knob. (Book 1, Page 103, for those who want to see.)
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby wih » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:28 am

My take RE: Book 1's calculation - if Parson didn't offer the chance of him taking GK in Book 1, then Charlie would have taken that as a "You could overrun us right now, come attack". It would have been in his best interests to give a figure that would have ensured him to not attack then and there. Duty would have compelled him to answer.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Malfallax » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:34 am

Another Lurker decloaking here :)

And I shall offer my own explanation for the calculation in book1!

Explanation 1: The possibility to deny a calculation is inherent to the warlords duty to his side and not a stated part of the contract with Charlie, so Parson was not aware of it at the time and only learned of it later.
Explanation 2: Parson did not think his calculation could do much harm since he did not think Charlie would have enough forces near enough to take a shot at his city before the RCC, and it only occurred to him later that Charlie would'nt have asked if he could not make use of that info.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:55 am

Malfallax wrote:Explanation 1: The possibility to deny a calculation is inherent to the warlords duty to his side and not a stated part of the contract with Charlie, so Parson was not aware of it at the time and only learned of it later.
Wanda's duty doesn't seem to help her break her nondisclosure agreement, even though she clearly wants Parson to know the things she is banned from telling him. It's even mentioned in Epilogue 8. Of course, that might just be because the things she knows aren't immediately important to the survival of the side. I'm not even entirely sure why she wants Parson to know things about Charlie which are apparently so trivial.

Malfallax wrote:Explanation 2: Parson did not think his calculation could do much harm since he did not think Charlie would have enough forces near enough to take a shot at his city before the RCC, and it only occurred to him later that Charlie would'nt have asked if he could not make use of that info.
I can't believe Parson would make that sort of mistake, but it might not actually be a mistake, depending on how many Archons Charlie would have needed to take Gobwin Knob. Charlie didn't know how many he would need, or else he wouldn't have asked, and Charlie was underestimating Parson at the time.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:07 am

There's a very simple answer for why Parson gave Charlie those first answers that might have gone against Duty - Charlie almost certainly wrote the terms so that if Parson hadn't agreed to the calculations he wouldn't be prevented from croaking Stanley with Transylvito, so Duty wouldn't be clear that answering the question was worse than not answering.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Malfallax » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:32 am

@ Lilwik

I gotta admit I absolutely did'nt think about Wandas (and Jacks) "Deal of a Lifetime".
Although my 1st theory doesn't look so perfect anymore I don't think that necessarily means it is wrong.
Maybe helping your side by revealing secrets is does not count as important as avoiding to help an enemy? Kinda like you're not allowed to lie at court, but you don't have to say stuff that can be used against yourself?
And theres propably A LOT more power behind Wandas deal than hinter Parsons relatively simple "Trade Agreement"

Regarding theory 2: I agree that Parson would not make such a mistake as he is now. But at the time this happened he was in Erfword for, let's say, 5 turns tops. AND he didn't know Charlie. All he knew about him was stuff he was told, and I think we all know some guy/gal where words are not sufficient to really get the message about him across. And he was propably in a hurry, which never helps.
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