What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:24 am

My version of the chart assumes that the grid isn't "real" so much as it's an emergent property of the different magics being related. For instance, Turnamancy has been used to create perception altering items along with Hat Magic, and Lookamancy and maybe Shockamancy have both blinded people. So it looks like to me that Erf Motion has perception/mind/information powers as the main constant, not just making things move. On the other side, Findamancy and Hat Magic both summon things, Lookamancy could, when boosted, see other universes, and Flower Power involves seeing higher dimensions and teleporting food from farms to linked cities. So it looks like Erf Life magics involve extra spatial dimensions.

Also still don't know why people think Weirdamancy controls all specials. :|

Also to stay on the subject of Turnamancy:
Another guy named Charlie oh look at that.
Oh hey these posters look so similar
Is that the Unaroyal tire in the left there? Looks awfully familiar.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:28 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:My version of the chart assumes that the grid isn't "real" so much as it's an emergent property of the different magics being related.
I don't properly understand what you mean by that. Emergent in what way? Do you mean that you don't think the grid represents how the various magics relate to each other?

Shai_hulud wrote:For instance, Turnamancy has been used to create perception altering items along with Hat Magic,
Turnamancy and perception altering makes me think of Jillian's box, but I thought that was made with Turnamancy and Thinkamancy, not Hat Magic. Was the Hat Magic perception altering something else that I'm not remembering?

Shai_hulud wrote:and Lookamancy and maybe Shockamancy have both blinded people.
Lookamancy is the natural choice for blinding people, but misdirecting people's attention with a flash mob isn't really the same as blinding people.

Shai_hulud wrote:So it looks like to me that Erf Motion has perception/mind/information powers as the main constant, not just making things move.
Wanda says that the Titans made the elements equal, so I expect that Motion can apply to Life just exactly as much as it can apply to Matter. In other words, Turnamancy can move your soul instead of moving your body if it is applied correctly. Because Eyemancy is aligned with Life+Motion, it is completely restricted to moving Life and that allows it move ideas from place to place, and apparently that includes extracting ideas from distant places in the form of images and inserting them into people's heads, and constructing images of counterfactual things to replace the true images in people's heads.

Shai_hulud wrote:On the other side, Findamancy and Hat Magic both summon things,
I've always thought the evidence for Findamancy's summoning powers is a bit weak. It seems that Wanda couldn't have gotten the Arkenshoes if they weren't in the same hex even though she was using Findamancy. We can't be sure which discipline the summoning aspect of the Summon Perfect Warlord spell comes from since it's a scroll and the casters who made it could technically have access to any discipline.

Shai_hulud wrote:Lookamancy could, when boosted, see other universes,
Where do we get this from?
Shai_hulud wrote:Flower Power involves seeing higher dimensions and teleporting food from farms to linked cities.
I don't remember where that comes from either.

Shai_hulud wrote:Also still don't know why people think Weirdamancy controls all specials.
The only thing we really know about Weirdomancy is that it can give and take away the flying special, and that comes from Book 2, Klog 2. Considering Weirdomancy's connection to Motion, it seems natural that Weirdomancy controls the ways in which a unit is allowed to move, but what that means is pure guesswork. If Weirdomancy can let you fly, can it also let you go underwater like a fish? Can it let you pass through walls or at least climb over them? Can it let you pass through a hex boundary without move? It's unfortunate that we don't even have a list of the kinds of special movements that are available in Erfworld. Perhaps Weirdomancy can even control specials that aren't related to ordinary movement as part of moving the mind, like giving a unit the fabrication special.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Lilwik wrote:I don't properly understand what you mean by that. Emergent in what way? Do you mean that you don't think the grid represents how the various magics relate to each other?
I mean that a Findamancer and a Florist might sense things and manipulate certain energies, and a Dirtamancer and Florist might too, but a Dirtamancer might not have much in common with a Findamancer, resulting in them both being in a line with each other, but the Dirtamancer and Findamancer not having a shared "element."

Lilwik wrote:Turnamancy and perception altering makes me think of Jillian's box, but I thought that was made with Turnamancy and Thinkamancy
The box was made with Turnamancy and Croakamancy, in the same way (it seems) that the Heroine buds were made to allow exploration of Flower Power. See these quotes about the box:

IPTSF 54
“-involved in its construction. But I don’t remember enough from the link-up.”

IPTSF 57
“The box,” said the Croakamancer to the Florist, “was, in some ways, an impediment.”

The shocks had struck her in a methodical order, describing a netlike pattern through her body from feet to head, as if her tormentor had followed a practiced checklist.

“The sense it gave of the prisoner’s body was surely a help to Tina,” continued Lady Firebaugh, “but my own sense as a Croakamancer is superior to that. I have more finesse, more control. I can make her hurt as much or as little as I wish to. The pain needn’t blind or paralyze. Mere discomfort has its place in the changing of a mind. Observe.”


Lilwik wrote:Was the Hat Magic perception altering something else that I'm not remembering?
I actually was talking about A.V. Club's magic headbands (two so far shown.)

Lilwik wrote:Lookamancy is the natural choice for blinding people, but misdirecting people's attention with a flash mob isn't really the same as blinding people.
Many people assume (perhaps incorrectly to be fair) that the Archon's flash spell is what caused the blinding effect in book 2. Note that they actually say no one can see anything in that hex anymore, not just that they are distracted. So it actually altered their "sight" whatever that means.

Lilwik wrote:I've always thought the evidence for Findamancy's summoning powers is a bit weak. It seems that Wanda couldn't have gotten the Arkenshoes if they weren't in the same hex even though she was using Findamancy.
Keep in mind that Wanda sucks at Findamancy by her own admission though.

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Lookamancy could, when boosted, see other universes,
Where do we get this from?
The fact that... Lookamancy was used to search for someone on another planet? And the caster responsible was named Hubble?
Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Flower Power involves seeing higher dimensions and teleporting food from farms to linked cities.
I don't remember where that comes from either.
Clarification; Jillian feels like she can see higher dimensions. That is all I meant. Also see literally everything we know so far about farms.

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Also still don't know why people think Weirdamancy controls all specials.
The only thing we really know about Weirdomancy is that it can give and take away the flying special, and that comes from Book 2, Klog 2. Considering Weirdomancy's connection to Motion, it seems natural that Weirdomancy controls the ways in which a unit is allowed to move, but what that means is pure guesswork. If Weirdomancy can let you fly, can it also let you go underwater like a fish? Can it let you pass through walls or at least climb over them? Can it let you pass through a hex boundary without move? It's unfortunate that we don't even have a list of the kinds of special movements that are available in Erfworld. Perhaps Weirdomancy can even control specials that aren't related to ordinary movement as part of moving the mind, like giving a unit the fabrication special.

Well yeah. It might be magic genetic engineering, or tron/matrix code hacking to alter reality. I'm just perpetually confused that people assume that's what it is, as if absence of evidence against a theory is proof the theory is correct.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:48 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:The box was made with Turnamancy and Croakamancy, in the same way (it seems) that the Heroine buds were made to allow exploration of Flower Power. See these quotes about the box:
Those quotes don't say that clearly at all. It sounds like Wanda was saying that she was involved in the construction of the box through a link-up, but she also says that she's whatever kind of caster she needs to be, not only a Croakamancer. Wanda also thinks that Tina might have better luck with repairing the box because Wanda's knowledge of Turnamancy is limited, as if Croakamancy weren't helpful at all. It could be that Wanda was acting as second Turnamancer in the link.

Wanda also says that the box actually made using Croakamancy for torture more difficult, which seems strange for a Croakamancy item, and there's nothing in what the box does that suggests Croakamancy to me. I agree that Wanda, Tina, and Maxwell probably made the box together while linked, but it's far less clear that Wanda was using Croakamancy at the time.

Shai_hulud wrote:The fact that... Lookamancy was used to search for someone on another planet? And the caster responsible was named Hubble?
Is that in Book 2 somewhere?

Shai_hulud wrote:Also see literally everything we know so far about farms.
I guess it is safe to guess that farms are Natural Flower Power.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby mantimeforgot » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:23 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:My version of the chart assumes that the grid isn't "real" so much as it's an emergent property of the different magics being related. For instance, Turnamancy has been used to create perception altering items along with Hat Magic, and Lookamancy and maybe Shockamancy have both blinded people. So it looks like to me that Erf Motion has perception/mind/information powers as the main constant, not just making things move. On the other side, Findamancy and Hat Magic both summon things, Lookamancy could, when boosted, see other universes, and Flower Power involves seeing higher dimensions and teleporting food from farms to linked cities. So it looks like Erf Life magics involve extra spatial dimensions.

Also still don't know why people think Weirdamancy controls all specials. :|

Also to stay on the subject of Turnamancy:
Another guy named Charlie oh look at that.
Oh hey these posters look so similar
Is that the Unaroyal tire in the left there? Looks awfully familiar.



Any time you mention a power used in conjunction with another you are invoking an unnecessary complication to your theory; case in point: Stagemancy can potentially affect anything in Erfworld. Stagemancy is generally limited via its scope as opposed to its targeting, and this is clearly in line with the "Thematic Theory" of magic origination. If real world carnival/performance magician types would purportedly do something of the sort, then it can and will be a part of Stagemancy in Erfworld.


In Erfworld the Life Axis has sentience/mind/perceptual influence; Erfworld uses the terms Sentience and Life nearly interchangeably as necessary. Motion has virtually no impact on whether or not something perceives something or not. If motion alone could impart sentience/perception, then Dollamancy alone would be enough to create living/sentient actors, which the evidence of the Scarecrow, Tinman, and Lion demonstrably shows to be false.


We presume that Weirdomancy controls all Specials because of the relationship between Fate and Numbers axis disciplines. The numbers axis is capable of playing around with the stuff that the Fate axis imparts or views. Dollamancy imparts motion and blaster rays? Weirdomancy can play around with adding or subtracting motion specials and the sort of abilities that involve creating ray blasts. Predictamancy tells you some stuff is going to happen? Mathamancy tells you the chances of that stuff happening and how it will happen. Thinkamancy can impart sentience and tells you why thoughts happen. Foolamancy can play around with what you know/how you know it and interfere with why you think things in the first place.


Since Findamancy and Lookamancy are both Life axis disciplines it is unclear to me why we should assume one's influence over the other in the creation of the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, and here again I think trying to generalize conclusions based on what is admittedly an amalgamation of casting disciplines seems to me to be fraught with logical peril. Even if we considered Lookamancy to be capable of seeing other universes alone (when sufficiently boosted) I fail to see how that undermines the chart in anyway. The Life axis is responsible for Sentience (That much is undebatable; whether or not Life is only Sentience in nature is debatable), and Erfworld pretty clearly borders or touches the boundaries of real world human thought; else there would not be so many real world references present.

Also, Lookamancy's ability to view other Universes might very well be a function of its Motion axis not Life; all of the classes of magic that are capable of directly affecting things outside their immediate line of sight (or interaction, like producing a gas) have motion as a part of their axes.


And I see nothing which indicates that the ability of Farms to pop rations in cities is a form of Natural Hippiemancy let alone Flower Power. Natural Flower Power is almost certainly responsible for the "growth" that animals and plants undergo, but we don't actually know anything about the process of depopping or ration formation. Who is to say that depopping isn't a form of natural Croakamancy (motion axis) and the popping of rations aren't a form of natural Moneymancy (which touches on everything but has no axes)?

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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:45 pm

mantimeforgot wrote:Any time you mention a power used in conjunction with another you are invoking an unnecessary complication to your theory;
I don't understand what this means. What do you mean when you say I'm using powers in conjunction with each other?

mantimeforgot wrote:Motion has virtually no impact on whether or not something perceives something or not.
Communication error here. I'm not using the word perception here to mean thinking about things, I'm using it closer to the way "Observe" is used in physics. That is to say, I mean the input of information into a system or sensory information. I was not claiming that it imparted understanding of what was being seen/sensed.

We presume that Weirdomancy controls all Specials because of the relationship between Fate and Numbers axis disciplines. The numbers axis is capable of playing around with the stuff that the Fate axis imparts or views. Dollamancy imparts motion and blaster rays? Weirdomancy can play around with adding or subtracting motion specials and the sort of abilities that involve creating ray blasts. Predictamancy tells you some stuff is going to happen? Mathamancy tells you the chances of that stuff happening and how it will happen. Thinkamancy can impart sentience and tells you why thoughts happen. Foolamancy can play around with what you know/how you know it and interfere with why you think things in the first place.
That is an interesting line of thought actually. I'm glad you explained this. I thought you meant that it controlled all powers regardless of element, as several people have claimed such in the past. Would you suspect then that Changeamancy is related to matter themed powers, which Ditto then doubles?

Since Findamancy and Lookamancy are both Life axis disciplines it is unclear to me why we should assume one's influence over the other in the creation of the Summon Perfect Warlord spell,
I actually had this exact thought in class when I should have been doing lab work (Oh god why?) So I concede that I don't know what each part of the spell did. Though I have no idea what them both being Life matters.

mantimeforgot wrote:I fail to see how that undermines the chart in anyway.
I never said the chart was invalid. You misunderstood my meaning.

mantimeforgot wrote:Also, Lookamancy's ability to view other Universes might very well be a function of its Motion axis not Life; all of the classes of magic that are capable of directly affecting things outside their immediate line of sight (or interaction, like producing a gas) have motion as a part of their axes.
I.. what? Producing gas?


mantimeforgot wrote:And I see nothing which indicates that the ability of Farms to pop rations in cities is a form of Natural Hippiemancy let alone Flower Power.
Sorry I was using pseudo canon meta knowledge. See Here and here.

Edit*
Responses to Lilwiks post;

Lilwik wrote:It sounds like Wanda was saying that she was involved in the construction of the box through a link-up
That's what I was saying yes.

Lilwik wrote:Wanda also thinks that Tina might have better luck with repairing the box because Wanda's knowledge of Turnamancy is limited, as if Croakamancy weren't helpful at all. It could be that Wanda was acting as second Turnamancer in the link.
Why would adding a second, worse, Turnamancer give the item flesh viewing powers?

Lilwik wrote:Wanda also says that the box actually made using Croakamancy for torture more difficult
Um, the hell are you talking about? She literally said it let Tina see something about peoples bodies that Tina couldn't otherwise. Let me quote it again for you.
“The sense it gave of the prisoner’s body was surely a help to Tina,”
Right there. It let Tina sense bodies in a way she couldn't otherwise. Not sure what that would be besides Croakamancy. Maybe Healamancy I'll admit.

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:The fact that... Lookamancy was used to search for someone on another planet? And the caster responsible was named Hubble?
Is that in Book 2 somewhere?
Yeah let me find it. Ok right here:
Hubble (the Lookamancer in the link-up) knew, but he was no trouble.
You're sort of right though, it doesn't actually say seeing other planets/universes was what Hubble did.

Lilwik wrote:I guess it is safe to guess that farms are Natural Flower Power.
Actually the more I think about it the less sure I am. I mean some of those farms had piglets, not plants?
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:45 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Why would adding a second, worse, Turnamancer give the item flesh viewing powers?
That's a good point, but somehow Wanda still felt that Tina would be able to fix the box without Wanda's help. Wanda thought that even Maxwell might not be necessary, though probably would be. To me this suggests that it's not a Croakamancy item, though I see now that awareness of the prisoner's body is suggestive of Croakamancy.

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lilwik wrote:Wanda also says that the box actually made using Croakamancy for torture more difficult
Um, the hell are you talking about? She literally said it let Tina see something about peoples bodies that Tina couldn't otherwise. Let me quote it again for you.
You quoted the wrong bit. Consider this quote instead:
Wanda: "The box was, in some ways, an impediment. The sense it gave of the prisoner’s body was surely a help to Tina, but my own sense as a Croakamancer is superior to that. I have more finesse, more control."
Naturally a Turnamancy item is a useful tool for Turnamancers. It was made by a Turnamancer for the purpose of turning people. The interesting bit is that the box only got in the way of using Croakamancy on the prisoner which suggests to me that it's not a Croakamancy item, especially when combined with it needing Turnamancy to repair and not Croakamancy.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:26 am

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:
Lilwik wrote:Wanda also says that the box actually made using Croakamancy for torture more difficult
Um, the hell are you talking about? She literally said it let Tina see something about peoples bodies that Tina couldn't otherwise. Let me quote it again for you.
You quoted the wrong bit. Consider this quote instead:
Wanda: "The box was, in some ways, an impediment. The sense it gave of the prisoner’s body was surely a help to Tina, but my own sense as a Croakamancer is superior to that. I have more finesse, more control."
Naturally a Turnamancy item is a useful tool for Turnamancers. It was made by a Turnamancer for the purpose of turning people. The interesting bit is that the box only got in the way of using Croakamancy on the prisoner which suggests to me that it's not a Croakamancy item, especially when combined with it needing Turnamancy to repair and not Croakamancy.

I did not quote the wrong part. She said it let Tina see something about bodies she couldn't otherwise see. Heck, the part you quote says that Wanda has those same senses but better. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that it got in the way of all Croackamancy when its explicit function is to give body senses to a caster that didn't have those senses.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby mantimeforgot » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:43 am

@ Shai_hulud

What I mean is drawing conclusions about what the different disciplines of magic do based on what happens when used in conjunction is problematic at best. We don't know what each discipline is contributing, and we also don't know what each discipline contributes as a matter of potential. We know that working conjunction allows casters to produce effects that alone or working separately could not be accomplished (Croakamancy knows how to move the Volcano but not where to move it and Dirtamancy knows where to move the Volcano but not how). Now in the aforementioned Volcano case we had the potentials explained to us, but in the case of the Perfect Warlord Summon it is not explained what each discipline is contributing.


Motion seems to me to be an essential quality of Being (as in existence) in Erfworld; so I will grant you that something like imparting of information occurs via motion. When you are on Turn you have Motion, when you are off Turn your Motion drops to Zero in most extents. This means what side you belong to determines in large part what how you interact with Motion. This is how I understand the relationship between Turnamancy and changing sides at a metaphysical level. But as a matter of Thematics all one needs to do is consider Fantasy tropes like Turn Undead or real world Turncoats in order to understand why a Turnamancer would be responsible for that sort of effect.


To answer the Changeamancy question: Yes. Dittomancy seems to be considered with "How many instances" of Stuff you have. Changeamancy therefore seems quite likely to be concerned with altering Stuff presumably into other kinds of Stuff. So a Changeamancer could likely take Dirt and Change it into Mud or at greater mastery into finished products (not merely other terrain stuff).


My point was that if you want to "reach out and touch someone" it seems to require Motion. Hippiemancy can create gas clouds (like when they burned the Olive Garden), but you actually have to physically interact with the Hippiemancy to do anything outside of view. Whereas disciplines with the Motion axis seem to be able to alter things entirely remotely (Thinkagram: Thought + Distance = Life + Motion?)


To be honest I am surprised to learn that an instance of "Natural Hippiemancy" is responsible for the popping of rations; the Farming ability and the ability to grow in the first place certainly sounds like Hippiemancy to me, but I never actually questioned the "relationship" between Farm and City. I always just assumed that some form of moneymancy or "natural poppamancy" that is an intrinsic quality of the world (something Signs could indicate but no form of Erfly magic could duplicate).


Side Note:

When discussing any question of what a particular discipline can do I think it best to always leave Stagemancy out of the discussion; they do not seem to have any limitations on what they can do other than what the practitioner can think up and what they are willing to sacrifice to get it. Stagemancy seems like it is almost directly equivalent to Theatrical magic made real and is the D&D equivalent of Prestidigitation, Limited Wish, & Wish from 3.0 depending on if you are a Novice, Adept, or Master Class practitioner. You can do pretty much anything with these, but you won't always get exactly what you think you should or want.

I get the impression that Master Class Carnymancy is like dealing directly with the Genie of the Lamp. You can wish for a ton of money, but it might appear on top of you or you might inherit a vault full of gold after the death of your favorite uncle. This is the reason why all the casters find Carnymancy to be so questionable in terms of its reliability (And you actually believed him when he said what it would do?); its not that it can't do that... its how likely is it to do what you want and not have horrible side effects? You can "sorta" fight Fate with Carnymancy, but you have to make trades. Rhyme-o-mancy can literally affect any and all disciplines and some aspect of it seems to be alluded to in all forms of casting (you are making a literary/dream reference no matter what class of magic), and so there isn't any practical limitation to what can be done with Rhyme-o-mancy. Hat Magic as presented seems somewhat limited, but the areas of influence (beyond involving hats) doesn't seem to be very limited. You can use Hat Magic to incorporate just about any other Erfly brand of magic...

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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:28 am

mantimeforgot wrote:What I mean is drawing conclusions about what the different disciplines of magic do based on what happens when used in conjunction is problematic at best. We don't know what each discipline is contributing, and we also don't know what each discipline contributes as a matter of potential. We know that working conjunction allows casters to produce effects that alone or working separately could not be accomplished (Croakamancy knows how to move the Volcano but not where to move it and Dirtamancy knows where to move the Volcano but not how). Now in the aforementioned Volcano case we had the potentials explained to us, but in the case of the Perfect Warlord Summon it is not explained what each discipline is contributing.
Point. Just seems weird that multiple items effect sensory input, and they have all been connected to motion magic, and that both instances of sense/sight jamming involved two different motion magics. Seemed like a pattern is all.


mantimeforgot wrote:Motion seems to me to be an essential quality of Being (as in existence) in Erfworld; so I will grant you that something like imparting of information occurs via motion. When you are on Turn you have Motion, when you are off Turn your Motion drops to Zero in most extents. This means what side you belong to determines in large part what how you interact with Motion. This is how I understand the relationship between Turnamancy and changing sides at a metaphysical level.
We might have a different definition of "Information" from each other. I mean, the Dolls are "thinking" right? In the sense that they are processing information? That is to say they are following scripts based on what they see I think? I will have to go through all the Transvitto pages to see if I really read that.


mantimeforgot wrote:To answer the Changeamancy question: Yes. Dittomancy seems to be considered with "How many instances" of Stuff you have. Changeamancy therefore seems quite likely to be concerned with altering Stuff presumably into other kinds of Stuff. So a Changeamancer could likely take Dirt and Change it into Mud or at greater mastery into finished products (not merely other terrain stuff).
That's not quite what I meant. Dittomancy can double specials too.


mantimeforgot wrote:My point was that if you want to "reach out and touch someone" it seems to require Motion. Hippiemancy can create gas clouds (like when they burned the Olive Garden), but you actually have to physically interact with the Hippiemancy to do anything outside of view. Whereas disciplines with the Motion axis seem to be able to alter things entirely remotely (Thinkagram: Thought + Distance = Life + Motion?)
Oh ok I see.

On Stageamancy, I still don't really understand why Carnymancy and Luckamancy aren't more closely related.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lipkin » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:16 am

Because luck has nothing to do with carny games? The game is rigged from the start.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:18 am

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that it got in the way of all Croackamancy when its explicit function is to give body senses to a caster that didn't have those senses.
I must admit that I'm also quite confused. I don't understand the source of your confusion at all. Wanda says the box is an impediment to torturing Jillian. All I know is that it was said. What it means beyond that is up for interpretation, but you can't be an impediment without getting in the way. That's where I get the idea that the box gets in the way. "The box was, in some ways, an impediment."

She seems to be saying that her own Croakamancy gives her a better sense of the prisoner's body without the box in the way, and that she can torture Jillian more effectively now that the box isn't being used. I don't know why that would be; I'm not basing this on any theory of magic that could explain it and so it has nothing to do with the box's function. I'm just reading what Wanda said and getting ideas directly from that.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby mantimeforgot » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:00 am

@Shai_Hulud

Dolls as I understand them are 100% robots; they can perform tasks as you explain it, but do not even possess the basic volition that a dwagon does (dwagons will hunt for food on their own in the absence of Orders). Any Sentience they have is borrowed from the person who gives them Orders or from a Thinkamancer imparting some form of sentience. I seem to recall reading that Scarecrow (and ilk) were made into Speaking Units and that that is somehow a very special difference for Erfworld.


I think first and foremost the where is it most thematically appropriate determines what abilities a given discipline has. Duplicating an extent power/ability sounds more like something Dittomancy would do, than any other branch, and so that's where it goes. Dirtamancy doesn't have motion as part of its axes, and yet it can create Crap Golems. There is I think a little bit of leeway, when it comes to what the various Axes allow for for a given discipline, but I doubt you will see a great deal of discrepancy.

For one thing I think Energy and Matter in Erfworld are 100% the same. So a Dittomancer can duplicate a fire because it is "just Stuff." "Special Ray Blast?" Still "just Stuff..." My personal problem with understanding Dittomancy comes from the creation of the Clone King. Just how much like the original is this clone? Trammenis was named Heir by the clone, so the Side seemed to recognize the clone as being equal to the original... and yet the clone leaves no corpse? How did something with only Matter axis manage to duplicate something that has Life and Motion down to the seemingly most essential level of being recognized as Ruler?

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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:18 am

mantimeforgot wrote:How did something with only Matter axis manage to duplicate something that has Life and Motion down to the seemingly most essential level of being recognized as Ruler?
I will speculate that he did it by perfectly duplicating the Matter of the king and then using juice to make the king move and talk and act just like the original, all by shoving stuff around like any good Stuffamancer. It's a perfect duplicate, except that it's a bit like a meat puppet and can't survive once it expends all the juice put into creating it. Of course, that being true would suggest that it would still leave a body when it dies, but perhaps Dittomancers save juice when creating Matter that is only temporary, and since duplicating a unit is probably both costly in juice and impossible to make permanent, they always use temporary Matter.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:21 pm

Lipkin wrote:Because luck has nothing to do with carny games? The game is rigged from the start.
Err, but that's not how Luckamancy and Carnymancy are actually shown working in comic? They both are shown to manipulate outcomes by moving the luck around, and then both have to pay it back later. Seems oddly similar is all I was saying. It seems like the only difference we have seen so far is that one is reactive. That is all I was saying.

Lilwik wrote:I must admit that I'm also quite confused. I don't understand the source of your confusion at all. Wanda says the box is an impediment to torturing Jillian. All I know is that it was said. What it means beyond that is up for interpretation, but you can't be an impediment without getting in the way. That's where I get the idea that the box gets in the way. "The box was, in some ways, an impediment."
Is English not your primary language? You can't break up a paragraph into chunks while ignoring the rest of the context in English like you are. I'm not even sure what language you can.

Lilwik wrote:I'm not basing this on any theory of magic that could explain it and so it has nothing to do with the box's function.
I didn't say you were I think?
Lilwik wrote:I'm just reading what Wanda said and getting ideas directly from that.
Except you're not?

mantimeforgot wrote:Dolls as I understand them are 100% robots; they can perform tasks as you explain it, but do not even possess the basic volition that a dwagon does (dwagons will hunt for food on their own in the absence of Orders). Any Sentience they have is borrowed from the person who gives them Orders or from a Thinkamancer imparting some form of sentience.
I agree that they are robots? I never said they have "volition" or "choice." I think maybe I'm not getting what I mean by "information processing" across? The mannequins could transmit "information" over long distances, but they didn't think.


mantimeforgot wrote:I think first and foremost the where is it most thematically appropriate determines what abilities a given discipline has. Duplicating an extent power/ability sounds more like something Dittomancy would do, than any other branch, and so that's where it goes.
That's not what I meant. You compared Doll to Weird by the analogy of Items with specials vs manipulation of the specials themselves I think, and Think to Fool in a similar way, so I was asking if you thought a similar analogy held true about Change and Ditto, but for matter themed specials rather than Motion or mental functions.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:55 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:You can't break up a paragraph into chunks while ignoring the rest of the context in English like you are.
I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that when Wanda said the box was an impediment it didn't actually mean that the box was getting in the way? That when we take her words in context, she actually meant that the box wasn't getting in the way? I doesn't read that way to me, but if so then why did she say that the box was an impediment at all?

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lilwik wrote:I'm just reading what Wanda said and getting ideas directly from that.
Except you're not?
No, she definitely said that the box was an impediment. Maybe in some convoluted way she didn't actually mean what she said, but the origin of my idea that the box got in the way is clear, I hope.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:15 pm

You're still doing it. You're chopping what she said up into pieces and then removing the middle parts of the paragraph in a way that changes the meaning of her words. Making it say something different than what she actually said, and then using that new set of words to come to a conclusion that contradicts what she actually said.

Lilwik wrote:Are you saying that when Wanda said the box was an impediment it didn't actually mean that the box was getting in the way?
That's... not what the issue ever was? Why do you keep trying to change the conversation into some weird discussion about... whatever this is you're talking about?
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:39 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lilwik wrote:Are you saying that when Wanda said the box was an impediment it didn't actually mean that the box was getting in the way?
That's... not what the issue ever was? Why do you keep trying to change the conversation into some weird discussion about... whatever this is you're talking about?
I'm still trying to make myself clear from all the way back here:
Shai_hulud wrote:
Lilwik wrote:Wanda also says that the box actually made using Croakamancy for torture more difficult
Um, the hell are you talking about?
That's what I'm talking about. I'm puzzled about why my usual techniques of citations and quotes aren't working even though all I'm claiming is that Wanda said a particular thing that she said. That's the only issue that I see. What issue were you talking about?

Shai_hulud wrote:You're chopping what she said up into pieces and then removing the middle parts of the paragraph in a way that changes the meaning of her words. Making it say something different than what she actually said, and then using that new set of words to come to a conclusion that contradicts what she actually said.
Please allow me to examine this paragraph in more detail to help figure out what sort of misunderstanding is going on here. It starts with: "The box was, in some ways, an impediment." Looking at that sentence out of context makes me think Wanda thinks the box is a problem that interferes with her work. You say that contradicts what Wanda actually meant if we take the rest of the paragraph into account. I just don't see how.

Next in the paragraph is: "The sense it gave of the prisoner's body was surely a help to Tina, but my own sense as a Croakamancer is superior to that." Here Wanda says that Tina was helped by the box's ability to sense the prisoner's body, something that Wanda doesn't need because of her Croakamancy sense which is better than what the box could do. From this I'm getting that the box wasn't an impediment to Tina, but knowing more about Tina doesn't seem to help. If anything, this sentence actually strengthens the point that Wanda is saying the box was useless since she has no use for the senses it provides.

Then Wanda goes on to talk about how great she is at torture: "I have more finesse, more control. I can make her hurt as much or as little as I wish to," followed by Wanda demonstrating how good she is without the box. Again it seems that Wanda is better without the box getting in the way. It seems like the only thing the box did for Wanda was taking the effort out of the torture, allowing her to walk away while the box did all the work.

Even going through the entire paragraph I still come to the same conclusion. Which part of this exactly am I getting wrong?
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby mantimeforgot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:25 am

@ Shai-hulud

Yes, I think that Dittomancy should be able to manipulate Matter axis Specials directly in much the same way other Numbers axis disciplines do within their respective spheres of interest, and that Changeomancy should be able to impart said Matter Specials.

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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby drachefly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:25 am

Lilwik wrote:Even going through the entire paragraph I still come to the same conclusion. Which part of this exactly am I getting wrong?


Is this what you are still trying to establish?

Lilwik wrote:Wanda also says that the box actually made using Croakamancy for torture more difficult, which seems strange for a Croakamancy item, and there's nothing in what the box does that suggests Croakamancy to me. I agree that Wanda, Tina, and Maxwell probably made the box together while linked, but it's far less clear that Wanda was using Croakamancy at the time.


Because I see little arguments, but it seems like we're losing track of what they're aimed at.

Shai-hulud has already addressed how this can be consistent by noting that just because something was made with Croakamancy doesn't mean that it is as good as being a croakamancer.
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