What's the deal with Turnamancers?

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What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby YesNinja » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:34 pm

In a recent discussion about Ace, and all the cool new things he's going to be doing, Turnamancy was brought up (because of vehicles being brought up). Which got me thinking: What the heck do Turnamancers do? Because they seem to do an awful lot, for casters.


We know that they can decrease production time for units. We know that they can turn units from one side to another. We also know that they can END turns, given enough power. OK, that makes sense, based on the multiple meanings of the word turn.


But apparently they can also do vehicles (unless Jillian has no idea what she's talking about). Which is strange, as that SOUNDS like something a Dollamancer would do. What other things do you guys think Turnamancers can do? Are there any other disciplines that can do such a wide variety of things? My guess for second place would be Thinkamancers, but even then we might know the full extent of their capabilities already. Consider that we have only ever even SEEN one Dollamancer, and we already know a number of things they can do!



Anyway, to make a long, disjointed post short, Turnamancers are crazy powerful. What else do you think they can do?
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:54 pm

Other schools are potentially very diverse. At Gencon, Rob apparently revealed that Signamancy is actually CRAZY diverse, potentially covering everything from From=Function, to books and other information, to tracking (like, in the wild sense of hunting ect).
It's all a matter of thinking creatively, and most schools can do lots of things via puns or references. We have just seen the diversity of some schools more than others because the narrative requires it.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:58 pm

Vehicles work because they function because of gears and wheels turning, I think. Specifically, if I remember right, I think the vehicle jillian was talking about was a paddleboat, which is propelled by a huge turning wheel.

As I understand it, Turnamancers do everything that has to do with the word 'turn' in all of its meanings.

That means changing units' allegiances (turning), manipulating time (turns), physical things rotating (turning).

I would expect that anything else which uses the word 'turn' would also be fair game. So maybe they can create distractions ('turning heads!') or something to do with making farms more efficient (using definition 4 of the word turn at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/turn ) or other things.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:00 pm

In a lot of ways, the diversity of the school correlates to how much we have seen of it.

Of the GK casters, Dirtamancers can do a lot. So can Thinkamancers. Croakamancy is more focused in that you just uncroak. But you can then do a lot with uncroaked.

Dollamancers seem very diverse with Golems and accesories. We've seen a few different uses of Hat Magic, and it's even more diverse if you are of the opinion that Cubbins' Pop a Cap was Hat Magic and not just firing tower defenses.

Flower Power is extremely diverse and powerful. Stopping combat, plant units, poisons/potions.

We haven't seen Carnymancers do much, but everyone seems to act like they can do a bunch.

I think every discipline will be shown to be very diverse and very powerful as we see them.
I know how it works. And I'm not that confident.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:44 pm

ftl wrote:As I understand it, Turnamancers do everything that has to do with the word 'turn' in all of its meanings.
Don't even think such a thing! Turnamancers are given that name because their abilities are tightly associated with turns and turning. Their abilities are not powered by the word "turn". Going down that road can only lead to madness.

Turnamancy is the Erf-axis discipline of Spookism, which is the class of magic based entirely on the Motion axis. That suggests that Turnamancy is to Motion what Dirtamancy is to Matter. In other words Turnamancy makes things move. Units move from one side to another, production becomes faster, and vehicles can be powered by Turnamancy, all because Turnamancy injects motion into things. Additional things we can expect Turnamancy to be able to do: remove motion from things, causing units to freeze in place or move slowly in combat, turning water into ice, making wind blow or calm, and things like that.

ftl wrote:So maybe they can create distractions ('turning heads!') or something to do with making farms more efficient.
Turnamancy can make farms work faster, just like they can make anything faster, but creating distractions is Shockmancy.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:32 pm

Shockamancy, heh. My first thought was that "no, creating distractions is foolamancy". The odious diversion beast.

Presumably multiple disciplines can sometimes end up doing something very similar through different means.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:51 pm

ftl wrote:My first thought was that "no, creating distractions is foolamancy". The odious diversion beast.
Good point. It depends on what kind of distraction you are talking about. Getting people to look away from what you are doing by misdirecting them into looking in some other direction is Foolamancy, but providing a distraction for your allies by getting people to look at you is something that Shockmancy excels at. They are two kinds of distraction, but they are also opposites.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:40 pm

Lilwik wrote:turning water into ice, making wind blow or calm, and things like that.
These assume Earth physics, which have already been proven false at times for Erfworld.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:58 pm

0beron wrote:
Lilwik wrote:turning water into ice, making wind blow or calm, and things like that.
These assume Earth physics, which have already been proven false at times for Erfworld.
The only assumption required is that Turnamancy controls motion, making things stop and go. Surely making the wind blow is among the least of what a Turnamancer could do. I'm not sure if Turnamancers are powerful enough to make a river stop flowing or freeze a lake, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a Turnamancer do it.

All of these applications of Turnamancy are quite straight-forward. Turnamancy is no more versatile than Dirtamancy. No one considers it strange that Dirtamancers can create a wide variety of structures, so why are people surprised when Turnamancers can create a wide variety of motions?
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:05 pm

At the very least, because as you've defined it, basically anything is a type of motion.

Which is, I suppose true in earth physics. Everything is motion of particles. But I'm not as convinced as you are that that translates to erfworld physics particularly well, so I wouldn't call those things straightforward at all. We'll see, we'll see. We're still waiting to see any example of something using turnamancy that isn't tied to a meaning of the word "turn" ;)
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:09 pm

Well I suppose it is the freezing bit that I took issue with most. The idea that there are such things as atoms in Erfworld, and their motion is the cause of heat, is an idea that may not hold true. You did reword it in a way I'd consider possible, which is stopping a river flowing. But it wouldn't necessarily be because it's frozen, you would just have still water.
The wind idea also relies on there being air molecules that can be made to move, which also may not be the case. Unlike water, air in Erfwolrd may just be empty space.
I'm not necessarily saying either of the above issues are true, I'm just pointing out that your speculation about these powers is based on physics that may not be the same in Erfworld.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:28 pm

ftl wrote:At the very least, because as you've defined it, basically anything is a type of motion.
Can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that I'm saying that everything is a type of Motion? I'm saying that motion is Motion, naturally, and wind seems like Motion to me, and water flowing is Motion. I presume that when Motion is removed from water in Erfworld you get ice, but maybe the water just freezes in time without becoming cold. That still leaves a whole world of stuff that isn't Motion. Bananas aren't motion; they're fruit, and I'm pretty sure that Turnamancers can't make bananas. They can speed up a banana tree, but they can't just magic bananas into existence the way a Stuffamancer might. Turnamancers can't create Life either.

In Erfworld magic, Life, Motion, and Matter are called elements and it is implicit that they are the only elements. That means that Turnamancers control about a third of everything, which is a large amount, but it leaves an even larger amount that they don't control.

0beron wrote:The wind idea also relies on there being air molecules that can be made to move, which also may not be the case. Unlike water, air in Erfworld may just be empty space.
I'm sure air still feels like something, so empty space seems unlikely, but you might be right. Even so, wind is not just empty space, because wind clearly pushes things. Whether air is made of molecules and those molecules are moving or not, wind is still motion. If air is just empty space in Erfworld, then wind must be made of pure Motion, like Natural Turnamancy delivering Motion to things in the direction that the wind is blowing with no medium needed to carry the Motion across the empty space.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:12 am

Lilwik wrote:Even so, wind is not just empty space, because wind clearly pushes things. Whether air is made of molecules and those molecules are moving or not, wind is still motion. If air is just empty space in Erfworld, then wind must be made of pure Motion, like Natural Turnamancy delivering Motion to things in the direction that the wind is blowing with no medium needed to carry the Motion across the empty space.

Good point, I can get behind that.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:11 pm

I, on the other hand, try to assume all the things that the magic could do, based on not just puns on its name, but also associated concepts (like clocks and gears for instance) as well as awful quantum physics jokes, and then try to work out a "physics" that would explain all those different powers. Right now I'm assuming Turnamancy is some sort of psionic magic that works sort of like a cross between Clockwork Orange and Magneto. Building perpetual motion machines, mind control devices, and antigrav broomsticks, but the energy source for those are all some sort of "psi" energy. Probably connected to the "firmament" mentioned in page 1 of book 0.

Also on the time stopping, haven't we already seen Janis do that with her "Time Out" spell? It looks like a magic type is partly defined by the element it lacks as much as by the ones it has. Thus "Flaking" and missing your sides turn starting too.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:14 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Also on the time stopping, haven't we already seen Janis do that with her "Time Out" spell?
Time-Out didn't literally have anything to do with time, it was a smaller scale effect of Olive's chillaxing. Prevents units from being able to engage one another.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby No one in particular » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:45 pm

From what we've seen, there's actually a lot of overlap between the disciplines in Erfworld.
  • Dollamancers & Dirtamancers can both make golems (plush vs hard rock)
  • Mathamancers & Predictamancers can both guess what'll happen (to varying degrees of certainty)
  • Thinkamancers & Foolamancers can both hold silent, nonverbal communications (thinkagrams vs Jack's private chat w/ Jillian in el-Efbaum)
  • Croakamancers know immediately & intimately how bodies work, and presumably so do Healomancers (what they can DO about it though, differs...)
The real issue seems to be insight. From what we've seen of the Magic Kingdom, there's no formal school for any of the branches of magic. Everyone muddles along, forming their opinions, and debating it with each other when they pass through. Considering how every unit is popped with skills and biases already installed, there's not a lot of curiosity or experimentation. Casters just know they can't do something... even if they can.

Example: uncroaking the volcano. The link-up boosted the power of the croakamancer and the dirtamancer, but it was only because they shared their insight that they succeeded. Wanda instantly knew that she could move the volcano, but didn't know what parts to touch. Sizemore knew the parts, but not how to move them. Since the link, he's gotten the idea that the land is like a body into his head, and that alone has nearly put him into Master-class dirtamancy.

This might be why Carnymancers are so powerful and distrusted. They naturally pop with the insight that it's all in how you look at it, and can fudge the rules for it.

0beron wrote:Time-Out didn't literally have anything to do with time, it was a smaller scale effect of Olive's chillaxing. Prevents units from being able to engage one another.
Check again, all of the casters in the scuffle are frozen in place. Olive's Chillaxe only stops blows from hurting, not from hitting ("As if in a dream, she could not swing it with any significant force. The staff moved as if she were trying to stir honey with it." - IPTSF 12)

If you want small scale chillaxing, you might be thinking of her "Peace on Erf" spell on Jojo back in the tunnel (LIAB 64). Time-Out though, totally froze the units in place for a few minutes.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:11 pm

No one in particular wrote:Check again, all of the casters in the scuffle are frozen in place. Olive's Chillaxe only stops blows from hurting, not from hitting ("As if in a dream, she could not swing it with any significant force. The staff moved as if she were trying to stir honey with it." - IPTSF 12)
It seems pretty clear to me that Hippimancy is about brain chemicals, like drugs and hormones, and the emotions they cause. It's on the axes of Life and Matter, and we know that Life doesn't mean walking around like an uncroaked; Life is a person's soul and the Matter of that soul can mean only chemicals of the mind to me.

When Hippimancy stops you from engaging, it's not a physical effect; it is altering your mind to eliminate the aggression needed to strike at someone. You can still think you want to attack someone, but when it actually comes to landing a blow the will to fight drains out of you because you're on drugs.

The fact that "Time Out" seemed to actually stop time makes it obvious to me that that spell was actually Turnamancy. Janis strikes me as an old and powerful caster, the sort who could cast outside of her class pretty well, and I think that the Time Out spell would be something she'd want to learn even if it were outside of her class.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby No one in particular » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:37 pm

Lilwik wrote:It seems pretty clear to me that Hippimancy is about brain chemicals, like drugs and hormones, and the emotions they cause. It's on the axes of Life and Matter, and we know that Life doesn't mean walking around like an uncroaked; Life is a person's soul and the Matter of that soul can mean only chemicals of the mind to me.

When Hippimancy stops you from engaging, it's not a physical effect; it is altering your mind to eliminate the aggression needed to strike at someone. You can still think you want to attack someone, but when it actually comes to landing a blow the will to fight drains out of you because you're on drugs.

The fact that "Time Out" seemed to actually stop time makes it obvious to me that that spell was actually Turnamancy. Janis strikes me as an old and powerful caster, the sort who could cast outside of her class pretty well, and I think that the Time Out spell would be something she'd want to learn even if it were outside of her class.

A bit of a digression, but I just want to make sure you keep your terms clear here; most of what you're describing is Flower Power, not Hippiemancy. Hippiemancy is a class, and contains the disciplines of Flower Power (Erf), Signamancy (Fate) and Date-a-mancy (Numbers).

We've seen a lot of Flower Power (Olive & Janis), but very little of Sign- and Date-a-mancy. Brother Labeler from Faq's been introduced, and there's been discussion of Natural Signamancy but that's all. The only Date-a-mancy we've seen was the Laurel of Napster (although I still have the theory that Parson is a data-mancer).

Back on point, re: the nature of Time-Out
Depending on how far you're willing to take the chemical/drug thing, Time-Out could still be Flower Power. There are drugs that can induce paralysis in the body, so rather than messing with time, Janis may just have induced a group-coma, or locked everyone's muscles in place.

Personally, I'm of the camp that Erf-magic is largely symbolic, and Time-Out fits within the pacifist/battle-quieting powers of Hippies. I willing to be wrong though; it could be drugs or a different branch of magic.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:48 pm

No one in particular wrote:Check again, all of the casters in the scuffle are frozen in place.

I don't see them frozen in place, I see them still struggling to still try and fight, in exactly the way Wanda Fritz and Tommie tried to fight when Olive suspended their fight. Also note the very hippiemancy-esque visual casting effect, a recycling symbol.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby No one in particular » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:13 pm

0beron wrote:I don't see them frozen in place, I see them still struggling to still try and fight, in exactly the way Wanda Fritz and Tommie tried to fight when Olive suspended their fight. Also note the very hippiemancy-esque visual casting effect, a recycling symbol.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it's hippiemancy. I'm just saying it's not can't engage-style hippiemancy.

If you look closely at Page 110 panel 12 (right before Janis calls Time-Out), Page 111 panel 1 (Parson is being helped up by the Healomancer & Maggie) and Page 111 panel 2 (Parson laying claim to the portal & Healomancer helping Punxsutawney Phil), you can see that everyone in the fight is in the exact same positions.
    Sean Mattox is still in the middle of casting Hoboken.
    The groundhog is still on the big Carnymancer's shoulder.
    The blonde is still grabbing the wrist of the female Carny.
    The Predictamancer in purple is still holding her cane or whatever in the air.
People outside the fight are still moving and talking (the Healomancer, for example, goes from healing Parson, to helping him stand, to healing Phil.

When Olive used her Chillaxe, they couldn't fight, but they could still move. It was only their attacks that were slow and lacked speed. The only reason the Predictamancers are fighting is to protect Parson; if the Carnymancers were neutralized, the Predictamancers wouldn't keep trying to fight.
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