Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Jabberwocky » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:55 pm

mortissimus wrote:Without mines, Erfworlders will in the long run have to do without mines. aybe not even so long time until that judging by the only mines we have seen. If GK had depleted all their gems (or rather all they knew about), what is to say there is much left in other mines around the world?



Of course, that depends on how far down Erf goes. For all we know(iirc), Erf is flat and goes down forever. Maybe in a 100 million turns, Erf will be filled with mole people fighting underground battles over gem seams.

Maybe Erf IS filled with mole people fighting underground battles over gem seams.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:34 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:For all we know(iirc), Erf is flat and goes down forever.
I wish it could be, but that doesn't make sense because there needs to be capital sites scattered everywhere so sides can start. A part of Erfworld without any capital sites would be useless and wouldn't make sense, and we know that Portal Park only has a certain number of portals. I wish we could get a good enough look at Portal Park to count all the portals, both open and closed. Then we would have a very good idea about the size of Erfworld.

It could still be flat, but if it is then it needs to have edges. It can't just go forever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:17 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Jabberwocky wrote:For all we know(iirc), Erf is flat and goes down forever.
I wish it could be, but that doesn't make sense because there needs to be capital sites scattered everywhere so sides can start. A part of Erfworld without any capital sites would be useless and wouldn't make sense, and we know that Portal Park only has a certain number of portals. I wish we could get a good enough look at Portal Park to count all the portals, both open and closed. Then we would have a very good idea about the size of Erfworld.

It could still be flat, but if it is then it needs to have edges. It can't just go forever.

He said "down" not "on." There are no sub-terrestrial city cites that we know of, so there is no reason that Erf couldn't be infinitely deep.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby bpzinn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:26 pm

About the Gems...
I am reminded about the classic, Master of Magic. It has a raise volcano spell there. And the process is broken due to bad coding, but raising volcanoes was supposed to have a chance of giving new mineral resources. (there was intended to be a 5% chance when the volcano stopped erupting for it to leave a random mineral deposits like silver, gold, gems, iron, coal, mithril, and admantium) MoM is my go to strategy game when I am trying to think Erfy, and I had always assumed that the gems restocking came from the volcano, and this was something you could game of you raised enough volcanoes... Also that volcanoes can (rarely) happen on their own (a random event) and that is where the gem seams come from to maintain equilibrium after starting conditions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby bpzinn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:27 pm

About the disbanding...
I think that it was the gwiffon once it was mentioned here, just because it is a clever idea. That said, I see the fact that the guys name is "Banhammer" as some pretty compelling signamancy. Signamancy that could bite Jillian in the ass. Because here is a guy who is surrounded by a clique of courtiers who fawn over him, agree with him, and who he favors over others. The signamancy seems to say this is more due to the banhammer rather that because his arguments are more internally consistent or compelling. Jack can disagree with him (and the court) but it has to be veiled in the antics of a Jester. So yeah, I think he is perfectly able to lower the hammer if someone disagrees with him loudly, forcefully, and repeatedly in public with him. Like Jillian Just did.

Also, I am with those who think surviving disbanding is possible, because a unit can theoretically turn barbarian on their own recognizance (actual mechanics TBD). I see disbanding making you no longer part of that side, without joining a new side. A state similar to barbarians. So I assume that when you are disbanded you can try to go barbarian if you are able to do so. Perhaps there is a initiative roll to see which action is resolved first. And if you fail, only then do you depop. I assume the heroic class units (Warlords, Casters, etc) are more likely so survive a disbanding than a random piker in a stack of pikers. I think that is one of the reasons you try to trade the warlords and such whenever, even the useless one like Jetstone had.

Disbanding seems more do with managing upkeep than as a discipline tool. You can try it, but that is not it's designed purpose, and it may not work like you wanted it to. The more 'selfhood' a unit has, the less likely they will just cease to exist simply to make your day a little easier.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:23 pm

Lipkin wrote:There are no sub-terrestrial city cites that we know of, so there is no reason that Erf couldn't be infinitely deep.
Except that Gobwin Knob exhausted its supply of gems somehow, so even if Erfworld were infinitely deep, there seems to be a limit to how deeply Erfworlders can mine.

I agree that if Erfworld is flat and has cliffs all around the edges then it is also probably bottomless. It would be very strange if digging theoretically deep enough down into Erfworld would poke a hole in the bottom and let you fall out into whatever lies beyond the bounds of Erfworld. On the other hand a flat Erfworld is also pretty strange around the edges, so I prefer to think that Erfworld is probably a toroid.

bpzinn wrote:I am with those who think surviving disbanding is possible, because a unit can theoretically turn barbarian on their own recognizance (actual mechanics TBD).
We've never seen any hint of disbanding being survivable. On the contrary disbanding seems to be a kind of death in Erfworld. I strongly suspect that if it were possible to survive then we would have been told about it before it became this critically important. Hiding that information and then springing it upon us as a surprise to allow Jillian to survive her own disbanding seems like a dirty trick.
Last edited by Lilwik on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ftl » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:28 pm

Or if you dig through deep enough you eventually get to a layer that you just can't dig through, like Bedrock in Minecraft.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:35 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:There are no sub-terrestrial city cites that we know of, so there is no reason that Erf couldn't be infinitely deep.
Except that Gobwin Knob exhausted its supply of gems somehow, so even if Erfworld were infinitely deep, there seems to be a limit to how deeply Erfworlders can mine.

I agree that if Erfworld is flat and has cliffs all around the edges then it is also probably bottomless. It would be very strange if digging theoretically deep enough down into Erfworld would poke a hole in the bottom and let you fall out into whatever lies beyond the bounds of Erfworld. On the other hand a flat Erfworld is also pretty strange around the edges, so I prefer to think that Erfworld is probably a toroid.

They THOUGHT they had exhausted their supply of gems, until Sizemore linked up and saw that they hadn't even come close.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:49 pm

Lipkin wrote:They THOUGHT they had exhausted their supply of gems, until Sizemore linked up and saw that they hadn't even come close.
So then you're suggesting that the only reason they considered the supply of gems exhausted is because they hit a barren patch and Sizemore concluded that it was probably barren all the way down and simply didn't bother to try digging deeper? Sizemore still isn't a master-class Dirtamancer, so maybe it was simply his inexperience which lead him to stop digging rather than a limit to how deep he could have mined if he chose to.

There's something appealing and Tolkienesque to the idea of Erfworld never running out of gems because they can just keep digging deeper and deeper forever. If we like that idea then it also suggests that Erfworld really is flat and bottomless with cliffs all around the edges. Unless it curves into a toroid in 4-dimensional space.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:11 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:They THOUGHT they had exhausted their supply of gems, until Sizemore linked up and saw that they hadn't even come close.
So then you're suggesting that the only reason they considered the supply of gems exhausted is because they hit a barren patch and Sizemore concluded that it was probably barren all the way down and simply didn't bother to try digging deeper? Sizemore still isn't a master-class Dirtamancer, so maybe it was simply his inexperience which lead him to stop digging rather than a limit to how deep he could have mined if he chose to.

There's something appealing and Tolkienesque to the idea of Erfworld never running out of gems because they can just keep digging deeper and deeper forever. If we like that idea then it also suggests that Erfworld really is flat and bottomless with cliffs all around the edges. Unless it curves into a toroid in 4-dimensional space.

I'm referring to this page. There were clearly more gems available, as Sizemore says.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F142.jpg
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:54 am

Lipkin wrote:There were clearly more gems available, as Sizemore says.
Looking at that page again, I notice there is something interesting about the way he says it.
Sizemore: "We didn't mine out even a third of the gems in this mountain."
If there are endless gems going down forever, then Sizemore isn't aware of it, because it makes no sense to talk about "a third" of an infinite amount of gems. It would be impossible to mine a third of infinite gems without mining for infinite turns, which is clearly absurd. On the other hand, maybe even being in a link didn't give him enough Dirtamancy awareness to see infinitely deep into the ground. Maybe all Erfworlders are under the impression that mining is finite because no one has yet mined infinitely deep, and what Sizemore believes is the total amount of gems in the mountain is actually only the total amount of gems within the limits of his awareness while uncroaking the volcano.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:09 am

junovalkyrie wrote:Erfworld started in December 2006 and Parson was introduced a few months later. 72 turns had occurred since his summoning at the start of LiaB, so assuming that an Erfworld day is approximately the same length as ours and that the comics where he was introduced represented present-day Earth, he would be 24 years old.


When was the last hamstard update? I think we can take that as the evening before the summoning (or two days before? Close enough on the time scale of years, anyway)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:57 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:There were clearly more gems available, as Sizemore says.
Looking at that page again, I notice there is something interesting about the way he says it.
Sizemore: "We didn't mine out even a third of the gems in this mountain."
If there are endless gems going down forever, then Sizemore isn't aware of it, because it makes no sense to talk about "a third" of an infinite amount of gems. It would be impossible to mine a third of infinite gems without mining for infinite turns, which is clearly absurd. On the other hand, maybe even being in a link didn't give him enough Dirtamancy awareness to see infinitely deep into the ground. Maybe all Erfworlders are under the impression that mining is finite because no one has yet mined infinitely deep, and what Sizemore believes is the total amount of gems in the mountain is actually only the total amount of gems within the limits of his awareness while uncroaking the volcano.

1. At what point does the mountain stop and the ground begin? Because he said mountain, which is a finite space.
2. I'm not arguing for infinite gems. I'm arguing that we don't know the ground doesn't go down forever. And unless they find an end, we never will. Just because there is endless ground, doesn't mean that gems are also endless. At some point the gems can stop, and the ground keeps going. Possible, and unlikely to be ruled out.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ftl » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:06 pm

And, of course, there could be a mechanism where gems can reappear where they once were, if the Titans designed Erfworld to go on forever. Maybe if a terrain space is not mined for some amount of time [thousands of turns] then gems can reappear or something, generating an endless cycle where land gets depleted, the empires there die off because now they're poor, and eventually thousands of turns later a new one can form there because suddenly they found gems.

Obviously, there's no in-comic support for this; I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility in case the Titans wanted to design a world which is mostly static and yet where any given side felt like their resources were finite.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:27 pm

That works since it maintains the causal link between the gem being dropped and the marbits finding one - even though it may not be the same specific gem, that doesn't matter - the comic refers to the causal chain, not the gem itself:

"Ages ago, when the Titans of Ark forged Erfworld, they left behind one extra gem, buried deep in the Minty Mountains. And so the Marbits could afford one extra squad of axemen."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby mortissimus » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Lipkin wrote:1. At what point does the mountain stop and the ground begin? Because he said mountain, which is a finite space.


We have a picture here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F135.jpg

The brownish grey (the mountain) has bright spots (gems) while the pale grey (ground) does not.

2. I'm not arguing for infinite gems. I'm arguing that we don't know the ground doesn't go down forever. And unless they find an end, we never will. Just because there is endless ground, doesn't mean that gems are also endless. At some point the gems can stop, and the ground keeps going. Possible, and unlikely to be ruled out.


While Erf can be both flat and infinite downwards (or there is simply a hard limit on how far any unit can dig), it does not affect the time. Which is what is interesting me.

ftl wrote:And, of course, there could be a mechanism where gems can reappear where they once were, if the Titans designed Erfworld to go on forever. Maybe if a terrain space is not mined for some amount of time [thousands of turns] then gems can reappear or something, generating an endless cycle where land gets depleted, the empires there die off because now they're poor, and eventually thousands of turns later a new one can form there because suddenly they found gems.


Could be. I like a decaying world better.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Azukar » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:38 am

Don't know if it's still proper canon, but a long, long time ago Stanley was astounded about the idea of war without turns, where everyone can move even at night, because "When [would] your units heal and disband?"

Could be inferred that disbanded units don't disappear until the end of the day?

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F029.jpg
---

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:03 am

Azukar wrote:Could be inferred that disbanded units don't disappear until the end of the day?
He didn't say, "When do your disbanded units disappear?" I expect he meant when do your units disband if you don't have enough shmuckers to pay for their upkeep, which is probably by far the biggest cause of disbanding in Erfworld. We've actually seen units disappearing because they disbanded when Wanda's uncroaked units disappeared right in front of her when Goodminton was destroyed in Book 0, and that wasn't at the end of a day.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:39 pm

Without any prompting, it occurred to me to check whether Rob slipped up and used 'child' in book 0 - 'child' is, based on book 1 page 43, not part of 'language'. It doesn't appear. I didn't check book 2 (some danger of that around Slately).
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