ErfGame Open to all

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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:23 am

I think beach still needs a champion in particular and diplomat said more could still join though they might be at a slight turn disadvantage after yesterday/today.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:48 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I'm fond of Silent Hill myself.

If you ever find an island city you'll have to call it Arkham.


I knew I was missing a city, *adds to hidden list*,

And yes, Diplomat hasn't stated he's closed it down, so you can probably join, though you'll have a single turn disadvantage maybe.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Safaquel » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:01 pm

Yeah, except my brain flat-out refuses to design a side I want and think of the city-flavour today.
I better go get some sleep before I attempt it again.

Must have been my arrogant post on the Shadowrun Returns forum....
Meh....


If I'm successful tomorrow, I'll join in, okay?
We'll see how it works from there.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:10 pm

Maybe this'll help, few themes from a group of my friends they made for our own variation on the rules, and never got around to testing them.

Fairy
Neko
Sky
Winter
'MURICA!
Apache
Fantasy Black Mesa
Fantasy Apeture Science
Chaos (W40K style)
Feudal Japan

(Hollywean, my side, is a remake of my theme from this group, which was Halloween)
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby thlawrence » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:15 pm

Safaquel wrote:Yeah, except my brain flat-out refuses to design a side I want and think of the city-flavour today.
I better go get some sleep before I attempt it again.

Must have been my arrogant post on the Shadowrun Returns forum....
Meh....


If I'm successful tomorrow, I'll join in, okay?
We'll see how it works from there.


If you choose Beach as your Titan remember that Beach is out to destroy the world. So that may help with the side design (something destructive). Also remember that because Beach is the Titan that wants to destroy the world while everyone else is interested in it continuing to exist (in some form). As such everyone and their dog has it in for Beach, with multiple sides having already stated that their number 1 enemy is Beach and their champions.

I think it is reasonable to allow you some time to get your side assembled, in the first few turns you aren't going to need much designed to play the game so you can clear up the higher tier stuff over the next week.

As for help designing, pick a starting point and go from there. There is nothing wrong with changing the starting point as things take form, but let them take form first, then allow the starting point to change on its own.

For me that was worship of Utah (whose described goals I like), leading to Mormonism, leading to hyper fanatical Christianity. Some names were kept from points along the way, some design decisions were made as things progressed.

TLDR
You will not make a side you like by just sitting down and throwing together whatever comes to mind. Build it up slowly, pick a starting point (favorite unit, interesting mechanic, fun fluff) and go from there. Right now all you need are the basics, you can finish over the next couple days.

P.S.
Have you considered accepting Utah into your life?
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:44 pm

Mmm, anyone else realize that the golems here seem to be decently weaker than presented in the comic? Maybe a juice to extra points thing should be implemented?
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:41 pm

Where are you getting the stats for golems in this game? As for compared to the comic, we saw the Jetstone Dolls being fairly serious opponents, but they looked like really high end ones, and in that final fight were being led by a caster (admittedly likely low level, but still). Dirtamancy golems we've not seen in combat alot, and when we have they've been led by Sizemore.

Also, I totally considered a fantasy Apeture just to get GLADOS as either my ruler or a D class unit or something.

My own process for my side went something like 'Desert guys sounds kinda cool...... maybe make them sorta dune based with a big worm D class.... underground is kinda cool... yeah, lets go with underground... dwarfs.... maybe semi-aquatic types.... wait, underground near a volcano maybe.... Oh yeah, firey underground, lots of lava and stuff.... Titan of Fire would totally dig these guys.'

I actually very seriously considered basing my side off dwarf fortress, with the basic stabbers being named Urist for a bit, but it quickly gave way to Abysia once I saw the true guiding light of the Titan of Fire. Also I totally cribbed the name (though none of the design) from Dominions 4. And since DF was brought up recently and GD didn't know what it was... he likely wouldn't have appreciated my mad edicts quite as much as some others might have.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:48 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Where are you getting the stats for golems in this game? As for compared to the comic, we saw the Jetstone Dolls being fairly serious opponents, but they looked like really high end ones, and in that final fight were being led by a caster (admittedly likely low level, but still). Dirtamancy golems we've not seen in combat alot, and when we have they've been led by Sizemore.

Also, I totally considered a fantasy Apeture just to get GLADOS as either my ruler or a D class unit or something.

My own process for my side went something like 'Desert guys sounds kinda cool...... maybe make them sorta dune based with a big worm D class.... underground is kinda cool... yeah, lets go with underground... dwarfs.... maybe semi-aquatic types.... wait, underground near a volcano maybe.... Oh yeah, firey underground, lots of lava and stuff.... Titan of Fire would totally dig these guys.'

I actually very seriously considered basing my side off dwarf fortress, with the basic stabbers being named Urist for a bit, but it quickly gave way to Abysia once I saw the true guiding light of the Titan of Fire. Also I totally cribbed the name (though none of the design) from Dominions 4. And since DF was brought up recently and GD didn't know what it was... he likely wouldn't have appreciated my mad edicts quite as much as some others might have.


"Dear Urist McStabby, next time you go into combat, can you please stab someone?"

Signed, your OverDwarf

As for the stats, the first post, towards the bottom

Dollamancy:

• Scare Crow: You create a Scare Crow soldier(s) (Ah Scary…). The Scare Crows have 3 hits, 0 combat, 0 defense, 5 move and the Dollamancy Golem special. You then have 4 points to spend has you choose in their stats. You may only buy the Frightening, Jinn stealth or scout specials for these units (they don’t all have to be the same). You can create a maximum of 1+1 per farm within the cities zone of control that you are casting in per turn. Cost: 5 juice per Scare Crow.

• Craft/change Raiment: Creates or slightly changes clothes. Cost: 1 Juice for change or 3 for Craft.

• Enchant Item: Gives or makes an item with a Bonus to a particular stat. This spell can also add a chosen simple special along with Digging, Farming and Terrain (capability) (Use caster level has level for the special). The Max Bonus this spell may give an Item is +5. Dollamancers can act in concert with units that have the Fabrication special to give a higher Bonus for the Item. Cost: 10 Juice per Point and 1 unit of loose materials. 10 juice per point cost of the chosen special and 1 unit of loose materials. These costs may be paid over the course of several turns.

• Create Cloth Doll: Creates a unit with 5 hits, 0 combat, 0 defense, 6 move and the Dollamancy Golem special. You have 6 points to spend and you can buy any of the 2 point complex specials and all simple specials. Cost: 20 Juice

• Sewing Kit: Heal an amount of hits to a Dollamancy Golem equal to juice spent. Cost: Casters choice (minimum 1 juice).

• Prepare the Mannequin: You create a Mannequin. The Mannequin allows the caster to see has it sees at any distance. The Mannequin does not count has a unit and has no combat, defense or move. Cost: 1 Juice

Fantasy Aperture had Cave Johnson as its leader and AI Cores were knights, so one named GLADOS could become Warlord, then Chief Warlord, then Heir, then Ruler.

Now I want to try and make a DF mod based on Erfworld, or just make a Masterwork world and name its stuff Erfy things.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:02 pm

"P.S. Someone not on your own side."

Okay, I saw the scare crow but I kept going over the cloth golem by mistake. I do agree that those seem significantly weaker than the cloth golems shown in the comic. They don't even seem on par with the one that Parson fought (though, since we don't know his stats, it's hard to say for sure), and no where near the huge siege worthy ones. Those seemed to be about C special worthy. Maybe only A/B actually, considering how easily dwagons usually took them out. But the ones as shown here are barely stabber worthy :P

I think a method for higher end creation or enhancement would be a good idea. Perhaps you get an extra 1-2 stat points per 5 juice? Perhaps you can throw heavy on it for 15-30 juice?
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:11 pm

There's also the rules from beta 2.0


Animate Golem
Varies
A/B Type: 20 Juice +2 Loose Materials
C Type: 40 Juice +3 Loose Materials
D Type: 60 Juice +4 Loose Materials

Unless they can be made over multiple turns, simplemancers can only make A/B, and level 2 casters are needed for C and D.

Maybe a bit to much of a swing in the other direction (I don't like the materials bit) but this would explain obviously tough siege units that were dolls.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby thlawrence » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:25 pm

There is also the rather large spell compendiumata.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yzkzr882pK9YUyTbrggC3MPFh7Ceq-MlonL5TLCfOm0/edit?hl=en_US

However it is best to ask the GM if any particular spell can be used, or if it needs to be modified. These are just for reference. I think Grand Diplomat used some of these for assembling the rules on page 1.

There is another spell list, its much older and I seem to of lost where it was. It was part of a full rule set from one of the erfworld games on this forum. If someone can find it it would be extremely useful for finding out some possible spells. There were some nice cheap wierdomancy teleport spells on it.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:29 pm

That also gives golems upkeep, which we know they don't have.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:30 pm

The costs on that seem crazy low. I mean, you'd only need a level 4 dollamancer sitting in the capital with some larder upgrades to pump out 2 D class units a turn, which is as fast as 8 level 5 cities could produce them. That sounds seriously game breaking. Doubly so if there is no upkeep on them. And even simplemancers could pump out an extra A/B special a turn, per city.

I feel like that would give any side with a (simple) dollamancer (or dirtamancer if they have an equivalent option) a massive production bonus, turning them from a force supplement to a full fledged force.

Now, I do think that a dollamancer should be able to create D class specials, but I think it should be more like 600 juice than 60.

Lets see, using my rough numbers from before... basic golem has 5/0/0/6 + 6 for 20 juice.
A basic D class is 16/4/4/3/heavy +26
So add in heavy for 30 juice to make it 10/3/3/6/heavy + 6 for 50
Then give it 20 extra points at 5 juice each for 10/3/3/6/heavy + 26 for 150 juice.
Then 6 extra points to even out the stats gets you 16/4/4/6/heavy + 26 for 180 juice.

That's quite a bit of juice, but that's an upkeepless D class every other turn for a level 3 mancer. And remember, no upkeep on a D class is a 300 schmucker/turn bonus. Maybe put a maximum of 2 turns worth of juice on creating a particular golem to prevent F class golems with hundreds of hits and such from rampaging through enemy lines.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Grand Diplomat » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:40 pm

Thanks for posting that link to the Compendiumata. I need to look over it to adjust spells. Turn 2 for the Forum will start Monday. OK every body?
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:44 pm

Mmm, class and level are separate in Erf, class is understanding of the disicpline (Implied by Wanda at some point), while level is well...level, so maybe simplemancers, acting as the lowest class, can only create the basic golem types, maybe A/B and there's a juice limit for the golems based on class. We have the base (say the six for what we have now) +6 and whatever bonus you have. Then say you can invest at Novice up to, say, 20 extra juice. 5 juice per point means four more points, and maybe 3 juice for each special point (So, nine to make frightening, leaving you 11 spare juice left.

So your strongest simplemancer, equivalent of a level one caster, has only ten spare juice left and other simple mancers can only make that basic class.

A/B at forty
C at Eighty
D at one-twenty?

Novice 20 2 Turns
Trainee 25 C
Apprentice 30
Trained 35 D
Skilled 40
Journeyman 45
Adept 50
Master 55 3 Turns
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:00 pm

I think you left out some key words while typing that out, as I'm having serious trouble following along.

I'm not sure what the novice/trainee/apprentice thing is all about. There are only 3 (4 if you include simplemancy) grades of caster, which is novice/adept/master and that is is roughly tied to level.

Personally I think my system is fairly simple and straitforward:

Dollamancy golems are 5/0/0/6 +6 for 20 juice.
Extra points can be added during creation for 5 juice per point.
Heavy special costs 30 juice.
No more than twice the caster's juice can be spent on a golem (no pooling multiple casters without links).

Perhaps add extra costs for other specials beyond the ones they can already get. Like maybe a 50 juice premium (Bit much maybe, perhaps only 20ish) on access to D class specials or something like that. It can be refined.

And when I said F class earlier, I meant a doll with 2000 juice or something crazy pumped into it, giving you some kind of 100/40/40/100 type monstrosity. Theoretical steps up from D class specials.

Edit: I'm fine with the turn advancing Monday.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby thlawrence » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:05 pm

I like the idea of highly customizable units. Perhaps we (The players) could try to assemble a mini rule set for how much juice to spend per point/ability on golems, including costs for no upkeep, access to certain abilities and other bonuses?

How about:

2 juice per point of first 15 points to spend, 4 juice per points for the next 15 points, 6 juice per point for the next 15 points,...
Juice can purchase access to abilities to design with, does not give you the special:
Access to Simple Specials: 5 Juice
Access to Complex 2 pointers: 10 Juice, prerequisite of Simple Specials
Access to Complex 3 pointers:5 Juice, prerequisite of Access to Complex 2 pointers
Access to Complex 4 pointers:5 Juice, prerequisite of Access to Complex 3 pointers
Access to Complex 5 pointers:5 Juice, prerequisite of Access to Complex 5 pointers
Access to Complex 6 pointers:10 Juice, prerequisite of Access to Complex 5 pointers, Minimum juice spent on golem: 100
Access to D-Class Specials: 10 Juice, still must purchase access to point level

Penalties:
No Upkeep: Double Juice Cost, Max juice 100

Garrison: Permanently at 0 move, 2 free points

Root bound: Cannot leave hex without croaking, 3 free points

Golems are not intelligent and cannot use abilities considered only for intelligent units. Example: Cannot obtain leadership special, cannot obtain simplemancies.

This is just a first draft and should not be considered for anything more than brainstorming. I personally would like to see easier access to higher point levels to encourage the creation of more specific golems, maybe a ranged siege unit with a siege only penalty, though good defense, so you can have catapults. Should also look into giving bonuses based on the magic that created it. Flower power might get bonus points for taking Root bound, dirtamancy might get tunnel capable at half price. Finally, we should look into the number of designs per side. I think 3 designs per mancy, plus each caster of that mancy gets 4 designs to use themselves.

Opinions?
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Godzfirefly » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:14 pm

Grand Diplomat wrote:Turn 2 for the Forum will start Monday. OK every body?


I certainly am okay with Monday.
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Durmatagno » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:15 pm

How about we divide complex into 3 parts

2-3 5
3-4 5, requires 2-3
6 10, requires 3-4
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Re: ErfGame Open to all

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:21 pm

Since GD has already said golems are upkeep free, I think we need to not make that a bonus/penalty but simply assume it as the basic function.

Your basic numbers look fairly good thlawrence. I thought the points might be a little too cheap at first, then I realized that if you were starting from 0/0/0/0 you need those first points to be very cheap to get a reasonable unit.

I'm going to perform a bit of mathamancy and see if I can maybe tease out some rough numbers here and there. The system I work out may need a slight modifier for the juice costs. Durmatagno keeps driving for lower costs. I wonder why? :P
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