Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:31 pm

It amuses me how irreverent casters end up being simply because they can get away with it.
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:33 pm

Hmm well there is a difference between irreverence and outright disrespect in my opinion. I've been watching for that line to be crossed, and have pushed back very subtly when I feel it gets approached, and will sternly speak against it if it is ever outright crossed.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:59 pm

House is beginning to get out of line as well. Maybe it's time I pop some stabbers and send House out into the field with them just to keep him busy.

And now I read that post. First he dares to have a go at me for leaving the capital virtually undefended, and then he suggests we could go out ourselves on the dwagon for the reconnaisance? His arrogance is more blinding than I had realised. Gonna need to think hard about what to do with him I reckon.
Last edited by Lord of Monies on Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:02 pm

HA
HA
HA
Pickle in the field, now THAT is a hilarious thought.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:16 pm

Ooh, there's an idea. Can I ask pickle to find something for house to do? Better yet, let's organise an away-day training scheme where we swap casters for a turn. What could possibly go wrong?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:21 pm

*facepalm*
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:29 pm

I support this idea based purely on how hilarious the fallout would be.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:12 am

So just skimmed over the rules again and seen the adjustment to battlecrap, which makes sense, but also means I need to re-spec my durk almonds. Considering those were written by 0beron though, have they been adjusted for his game or would they apply here as well, once again meaning I need to reajust my durk almonds anyway?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:45 am

0beron wrote:I'm not sure how precisely Kaed is managing it in his game, since I have yet to pop any scouts
What.

You really weren't kidding about being all forted up, were you? That takes it to a wholly unanticipated level of isolationism. Like an entire faction that refuses to leave their room and go outside.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:48 am

Hahaha oh trust me, I manage just fine :p Obviously the lack of scouts will come to an end before long, but I've made it work so far.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:13 am

He secretly has a lookamancer and he knows what ALL of you are doing.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:08 pm

As a Titan, I do have the modest ability to employ Lookamancy on the entire world constantly. *rubs a speck of dirt off white coattail*
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:22 pm

Okay so now that I'm running a game of my own I've started going through the rules with an even more fine-toothed comb to spot things that don't seem like they jibe well. And the most glaring problem is Caster leveling, namely that unless they are combat-oriented types, they will level very slowly.

I'll use Maggie as an example. As a Thinkamancer, we know she is not very combat-oriented, yet she is vital to a side functioning well so she is probably using all of her juice every turn. Further, we know she is an Adept class, and Delphi was also Adept as a level 4, so we can assume Maggie is at least a level 4 (Yes I know level and rank are not directly related, but there's a general correlation it seems)

Under the current rules, it would have taken Maggie about 100 turns to make level 4, never-mind 5 or 6. It is implied that she popped under Stanley, or not long before him, and given how few turns it takes for things to drastically change in Erfworld, I doubt Stanley has been around for more than 100 turns.
Things get even more ridiculous when you consider the fact that Olive was a level 12. Given her tactics, I'd say it's also pretty safe to assume she had little combat involvement. Under the current rules, making it to level 12 with Juice alone takes over FOUR MILLION turns, totally impossible.

So I think we should consider a change to that system. We could increase the amount of XP casters get from casting (say maybe 50%), or we could make a tweak to the leveling scale in general. Since how combat XP is calculated isn't known, I assume I'm not really revealing any super secret info by saying that Kaed has the XP required to level increasing exponentially by a factor of 4...maybe that's too steep and 3 might be more appropriate? Anyway, there's 2 ideas for people to consider and offer comments on, or any other suggestions are welcome.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:29 pm

I'm not sure about Maggie, but Olive had likely seen combat. She was the chief caster in a side that was besieged by two enemies, also I think you're not giving much credit to how slow things can be in erfworld. Judy had been in erfworld for YEARS. Just 10 years is 3650 turns... The exponential factor might be too high, sure, but I don't think casters have too much trouble leveling. Like Kaed's said before, lower levels come fast, but higher level units are just rare.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:38 pm

Almost every time we've seen a caster level, it's been a result of combat.

Wanda leveled several times while on campaign for Goodminton in the turns immediately following her popping, while Delphie and Clay didn't level at all- yet Delphie leveled again for the first time in a while after being the primary offensive caster in a single battle.

Sizemore didn't think that he would ever reach the levels that he did after the Battle for Gobwin Knob, when he leveled twice. Evidence, I'd say, that experience gain for non-combat activities is so small that the anticipated time to level exceeds the anticipated lifespan of even a well-protected caster after a certain not-very-high-level point. However, in the only directly cited example of noncombat leveling I can think of, Sizemore did manage to level (once) by rebuilding a dozen or so cities.

Pierce is Jetstone's highest-level caster specifically because he's been repeatedly sent to the front lines.


Basically what I'm getting at here is that while noncombat leveling is a thing, it should be utterly glacial compared to combat leveling. If that's what's happening in the current system, then the current system is doing something right.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 pm

Exate wrote:Pierce is Jetstone's highest-level caster specifically because he's been repeatedly sent to the front lines.

Actually that's an example that bugs me, but I didn't use it because I couldn't find enough background/time-scale info to do the math. He's a HEALomancer, so I imagine all his juice is going into heals rather than pew-pew. Thus he's not croaking anybody (which we've seen is the highest XP value) so I still have trouble accepting he would get so high from the XP of simply being there.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:50 pm

0beron wrote:
Exate wrote:Pierce is Jetstone's highest-level caster specifically because he's been repeatedly sent to the front lines.

Actually that's an example that bugs me, but I didn't use it because I couldn't find enough background/time-scale info to do the math. He's a HEALomancer, so I imagine all his juice is going into heals rather than pew-pew. Thus he's not croaking anybody (which we've seen is the highest XP value) so I still have trouble accepting he would get so high from the XP of simply being there.
I suspect it comes from being stacked with units that are winning engagements, not simply being present. Consider Wanda, who almost certainly didn't do much personal croaking- but was still leveling quite a bit from combat where her primary role was to stack with uncroaked units and give them a leadership bonus so that they could croak things. Likewise a Healomancer might be positioned in the thickest of the fighting but with units tough enough to take a hit or two, so that his heal-my-stack spells could do the most good. That means he'd probably be stacked with units doing a lot of killing.

Edit: Also, consider what we know about engagements- you withdraw without winning, and you don't get any XP even if you croaked things. I'd say that it's reasonable to think that all earned XP is distributed to the victorious stack post-engagement, so if you win but with half your stack dead, the surviving members can soak up extra XP that the croaked ones can't get. That could make some units level very quickly in certain stack distributions.
Last edited by Exate on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:52 pm

Plus, there are a few caster types that I can't imagine having ANY battle skill, besides the basic pew-pew. Find, Math, Sign, Hat Magic, Money, and maybe even Change but we don't know enough to say. (Yes I know Cubbins popped a cap, but that was a stylized/glorified pew-pew that was being amplified by Tower bonuses.)
What are those classes supposed to do? Because they can't even benefit units they are stacked with.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:58 pm

Almost every caster starts with hoboken, remember? Basic attack spell. That sets a lower bound for the usefulness of a caster no matter their discipline- they can probably always function at least as well as an archer, just using hoboken.

More than that, Erfworld is a world of war. No caster is going to be truly useless on the front lines- it's just a matter of applying sufficient creativity to their discipline to make them useful, in some cases, or having them cast a bit outside it. Yes, it's hard to measure up to a shockamancer, but there's a wide gulf between that and being a liability.

And anyway, "glacial leveling" doesn't mean "no leveling". I would have no difficulty at all believing that it took Maggie 100 turns to hit level 4- or level 3, for that matter- and that during all those turns she didn't see a bit of combat. Sitting in a side's capital watching the turns flow by is a fairly safe activity, most of the time, and casters are the single unit type most likely to survive the fall of their side, either by virtue of being captured or by escaping into the Magic Kingdom. Slow and steady wins races in a way that the fast-to-level-fast-to-fall warlords do not.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:01 pm

Maybe, or maybe that shows we lack imagination in terms of weaponizing those disciplines of casting. For example, I had an idea for a moneymancer to magically increase the cost of targetted units for a turn. You always get what you pay for a unit, so the increase in cost would act as an all-purpose buff to the units as if they were a few levels higher than what they were. That would put him in the field and able to earn some combat exp of his own.
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