Chris's Erfworld Game

[BLANDCorporatio]

The message of this post, for now: I don't think that production should come out of Schmuckers so much as be hurried by Schmuckers.

Concurred.

And just want to repeat- it's ok for Warlords and Heirs to cost an obscene amount of Schmuckers to (rush-)build. But please don't make them cost too much in turns, we want stuff to move while we still have a few natural teeth remaining.

[Twoy]

If anyone is interested in seeing them, here are my orders for Turn 52 in Dark Arbiter's game.

Spoiler: show

Turn 52:
Emerald City Pop: Witch #10 named Red Reera.
Quadling City Pop: .
Gillikin City Pop: .
Winkie City Pop: Upgrade to Level 4 (Cost is 24,000 Schmuckers).
Munchkin City Pop: Winged Monkeys #12-14.
Ev City Pop: .
Ix City Pop: .

King Oz: (In stack is Glinda, Tattypoo, Nessarose, Bastinda, Madame Morrible, Gloma, Red Reera and Scarecrow #1)
Scouts Out (WM #5-8, 6 Hexes);
Order bicaster link cast Scout Link (Big Board) on WM #1-4;
Order bicaster link cast Transfer Funds 6,000 Schmuckers to Winkie City;
Order bicaster link cast Hurry Production Emerald City 9 Turns (Cost 3,150 Schmuckers)
Order Jinnicky cast "Orders" to WM #12-14 to "Move from Munchkin City 3SE, 3S to Emerald City";
Order Jinnicky cast Big Board Scout Link on WM #9-12;
Order Jinnicky to send WM #12 to explore SW;
Order WM #13-14 move 3SE, 1S to link up with Betsy Bobbin;
Order Tin-men #1-10 and MH #3-12 stack with King Oz and assist with upgrading Winkie City;
Move from Emerald City 3N, 3NE to Winkie City;
Order Winkie City upgrade to Level 4 (24,000 Schmucker);
Move from Winkie City 3SW, 3S to Emerald City;

Bi-caster Link: (Total Juice: 61)
Cast Big Board Scout Link on WM #1-4;
Cast Transfer Funds 6,000 Schmuckers to Winkie City;
Cast Hurry Production Emerald City 9 Turns (Cost 3,150 Schmuckers).
(Polychrome should have 79 xp).

Emerald City Regent Omby Amby: (Increase production; decrease unit upkeep).

Jack Pumpkinhead: (In stack is Elphaba and MH #16)
Designate Lumbermill Round 3 for Emerald City.

Jinjur: (In stack is Locasta and MH #17)
Designate Lumbermill Round 4 for Emerald City.

Betsy Bobbin: (In stack is Gayelette and MH #18)
Designate Lumbermill Round 3 for Emerald City.

Jinnicky: (Total Juice: 17)
Cast "Orders" to WM #12-14 to "Move from Munchkin City 3SE, 3S to Emerald City";
Cast Big Board Scout Link on Winged Monkey #9-12;
Order WM #12 move directly southwest until you come to the western border of the world, then move three hexes south and return northeast.

Explorer Scout WM #1: Explore unexplored hexes in Southwest.
Explorer Scout WM #2: Explore unexplored hexes in West.
Explorer Scout WM #3: Explore unexplored hexes in East.
Explorer Scout WM #4: Explore unexplored hexes in South East.
Explorer Scout WM #9: Explore unexplored areas to the Northwest.
Explorer Scout WM #10: Move directly south until you reach the southern border of the world, then go west three hexes and move north.
Explorer Scout WM #11: Move 7SW, then directly west until you reach the western border of the world, then move three hexes south and return east.
Explorer Scout WM #12: Move directly southwest until you come to the western border of the world, then move three hexes south and return northeast.

Emerald City: Pop Witch Round 1.
Quadling City: Pop Warlord on Turn 54.
Gillikin City: Pop Warlord on Turn 55.
Winkie City: Pop Warlord on Turn 60.
Munchkin City: Pop 3 x Winged Monkeys.
Ev City: Pop Warlord on Turn 54.
Ix City: Pop Warlord on Turn 56.

[Nihila]

Okay, a question for Twoy:
What are all the units listed (Winged Monkey, Witches), stat-wise?
And then just some recommendations for Dark Arbiter's city rules (https://docs.google.com/View?id=dhnqc944_204hp54d2g8)
A) Instead of Siege Towers being available to all, have them as a replacement for D-class units. (In the comic, it looked like only Hobbittm units were in the Towers)
B) Have the option of having a very weak unit (1-1-1-12) instead of a D-class unit, with 10 points to use, which can be mass produced. (In the comic, Doombats)
C) Have the popping speed of C-class units be reduced to x2 per turn for level 5 cities. (maintains the 2:1 ratio better)
D) Have different Ship units, to represent the levels.

...Crap. I'm now hijacking Chris's thread... Sorry! I'll post these recs in Kaed's thread and Dark Arbiter's, and stay on topic.
Back on topic, now:

The game needs to be played either:
with a GM, or
with predefined units only.

I remain steadfast in my opinion that an ErfGame needs a GM. My justification is simple: Trimancer links. Players should be encouraged to exercise lateral thinking in warfare, 'cuz thinking is good for them.

[Chris Goodwin]

...Crap. I'm now hijacking Chris's thread... Sorry!

Not at all! More information is better, even if I end up not using it.

[Twoy]

Kingdom of Oz units

Spoiler: show

Winkie: Stabber Class Infantry, (HP 6, Attack 4, defense 2, Move 4) upkeep 30.

Munchkin: Piker Class Infantry, (HP 8, Attack 3, Defense 4, Move 3) Pops as garrison unit. Upkeep 20 each, can be promoted to normal unit for 50 Schmuckers, but upkeep raises to 30.

Gillikin: Archer Class Infantry, (HP 6, Attack 6, Defense 1, Move 3, Special-Archery) Pops as garrison unit. Upkeep 30 each, can be promoted to normal unit for 50 Schmuckers, but upkeep raises to 40.

Winged Monkey: Scout-Class unit, (HP 4, Attack 1, Defense 1, Move 8, Special-Flight) 30 upkeep.

Lion: Special Unit A, (HP 6, Attack 6, Defense 3, Move 4, Special-Siege) 40-50 upkeep.

Tin-man: Special Unit B, (HP 9, Attack 3, Defense 5, Move 3, Special-Builder) 40-50 upkeep.

Mechanical Horse: Special Unit C, (HP 15, Attack 6, Defense 5, Move 3+8, Specials-Heavy, Mount, Fast) 70-80 Upkeep.

Scarecrow: Knight-Class Infantry, (HP 13, Attack 8, Defense 7, Speed 5, Specials-Rider, Frightening) 120 upkeep.

Witch: Special Unit D, (HP 21, Attack 16, Defense 12, Speed 12+16, Specials-Flight, Mount, Magic Wand, Very Fast) 350 Upkeep. (I'm using the Breath Weapon rule, but calling it Magic Wand. Witches can carry a passenger on the back of their broom.)

Brig: Naval Vessel, 40 upkeep, HP 18, Attack 1, Defense 2, Move 4, Specials-Water-Capable, Vessel.

[Nihila]

...Crap. I'm now hijacking Chris's thread... Sorry!

Not at all! More information is better, even if I end up not using it.

Well, if you're sure...

Thoughts on Nobles and Royals:
A) All Nobles and Royals are Warlords. (Seems kinda obvious, but still...)
B) Royals can either be Heirs or Warlords (or Rulers), and can be promoted to Heir for mucho Schmuckero.
---B1) Nobles can be promoted to Heir, for more Schmuckers. If a Noble becomes the Ruler, their "bloodline" simply takes over the throne.
---B2) Normal Warlords can be promoted to Heir, for even more Schmuckers. If a Normal Warlord becomes the ruler, they can either become a Regent and begin popping a Royal Heir immediately, or can become a non-Royal Overlord.
C) Nobles have lower ranks for the lower level the city they pop in, perhaps only one Noble can be popped per city. (Level 5=Duke (Duchess), Level 4=Marquess (Marquise), Level 3=Earl/Count (Countess), Level 2=Viscount (Viscountess))
D) Nobles may or may not gain a rank if their city is upgraded.
E) Nobles have higher stats, gain XP faster, but take longer to pop than normal Warlords. (Maybe, Viscounts can add 1 point to either Combat or Defense, Earls can add 2 points, which can be spread between Combat and Defense, Marquesses get 3 points, Dukes and Princes 4)

Source for titles: I just took some information from Wikipedia.

[Twoy]

Here are the noble titles we know of in Erfworld, ranked, probably, from highest to lowest: Archduke, Duke, Count, Viscount, Lady.
5=Archduke would probably be a prince whose brother became the king.
4=Duke
3=Count
2=Viscount
1=Lady

[Twoy]

Why is it that some of the sides never raise cities above level 2? Maybe there are limitations to how large some cities can be increased such as access to certain resources. So, a city in the hills by the coast with no seafood products available cannot be raised about level 2.

[Nihila]

Why is it that some of the sides never raise cities above level 2? Maybe there are limitations to how large some cities can be increased such as access to certain resources. So, a city in the hills by the coast with no seafood products available cannot be raised about level 2.

That would be very interesting. Maybe a side has an overall treasury, out of which upkeep is paid, and each city has a "bank," into which Schmuckers can be put to be stored and used to upgrade a city or hurry production when there is enough money. The overall treasury would also be used for Warlord/Heir promotion. All money would go into the overall treasury unless the player ordered a sum invested into a city's "bank." And with a Moneymancer, the overall funds could be directed into an individual city to hurry production or upgrade quickly.

[Twoy]

That would be very interesting. Maybe a side has an overall treasury, out of which upkeep is paid, and each city has a "bank," into which Schmuckers can be put to be stored and used to upgrade a city or hurry production when there is enough money. The overall treasury would also be used for Warlord/Heir promotion. All money would go into the overall treasury unless the player ordered a sum invested into a city's "bank." And with a Moneymancer, the overall funds could be directed into an individual city to hurry production or upgrade quickly.

That's not exactly what I was thinking. I was thinking access to to high-quality farmland would give a city +1 or +2 on it's maximum level. Access to gem mines would give a +2. A good harbor might give +1. Access to seafood could be a +1. Access to lumber might be a +1. Access would be based on the six hexes surrounding the city.

Therefore, a city by the ocean might have 4 empty hexes of ocean and 2 empty hexes of dry hills/sand dunes. That would give it only a +1 for the harbor making the max size of the city level 2.

Another example would be GK with access to high-quality farmland, +2, and access to gem mines, +2, allowing it to be a level 5 city.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Good point, Twoy.

Although historically, I don't think local mineral resources were a good predictor of city size. Amazingly, mining areas were not that city-large. As far as I know.

The best predictor for city size, imo, was water. Rivers for drinking (and, uhm, cwapping into) and seas/oceans for trade.

EDIT:

Farmland's also a must, but how close is close depends on roads/rivers/any kind of transport. I'd expect some of the larger cities of the ancient world to rely on farmland located miles and miles away.

[Nihila]

That's not exactly what I was thinking. I was thinking access to to high-quality farmland would give a city +1 or +2 on it's maximum level. Access to gem mines would give a +2. A good harbor might give +1. Access to seafood could be a +1. Access to lumber might be a +1. Access would be based on the six hexes surrounding the city.

Therefore, a city by the ocean might have 4 empty hexes of ocean and 2 empty hexes of dry hills/sand dunes. That would give it only a +1 for the harbor making the max size of the city level 2.

Another example would be GK with access to high-quality farmland, +2, and access to gem mines, +2, allowing it to be a level 5 city.

That would work very well with outer walls in those six hexes, as the outer wall hexes would actively contribute to the city level, while the surrounding zone of control would contribute provisions and/or Schmuckers. Also, a city's Noble warlord wouldn't upgrade as much, as the city would probably hit max size and then stagnate for much longer. So, this makes sense, and emphasizes good city location more than sheer number.

Although historically, I don't think local mineral resources were a good predictor of city size. Amazingly, mining areas were not that city-large. As far as I know.

Well, some areas prospered due to mining, and had larger production capacities, which would, in Erfworld, translate to a larger city size.

The best predictor for city size, imo, was water. Rivers for drinking (and, uhm, cwapping into) and seas/oceans for trade.

So, +1 for having a river, and +2 for having a navigable river (as in, takes up a hex and not just a hex border).

[BLANDCorporatio]

Well, some areas prospered due to mining, and had larger production capacities, which would, in Erfworld, translate to a larger city size.

That's the thing, those areas did NOT prosper as much as you'd expect. Usually what happened was that any useful stuff that was dug out of the ground was immediately shipped out to a big city far away.

Part of that was probably geology. Most mines are in the mountains, and it's easier to have big cities in the plains.

[Nihila]

Well, some areas prospered due to mining, and had larger production capacities, which would, in Erfworld, translate to a larger city size.

That's the thing, those areas did NOT prosper as much as you'd expect. Usually what happened was that any useful stuff that was dug out of the ground was immediately shipped out to a big city far away.

Part of that was probably geology. Most mines are in the mountains, and it's easier to have big cities in the plains.

Well, yes. I think that the mining thing is an attempt to justify Gobwin Knob's large city size. My proposition: Volcanic Soil:+2 bonus to the +2 Great Farmland bonus. Pompeii and Herculaneum were some of the most fertile ground in Italy. Of course, it's much safer to build that city in an extinct volcano, otherwise those darn eruptions can ruin your day.

[Chris Goodwin]

Just want to say... this is all good stuff. Seriously. And when I get a chance, it will end up in the game.

[Twoy]

I'm mainly looking at Erf rather than Earth, but since we don't have a lot of information on Erf...

Good farmland: +1
Great farmland: +2
Great farmland with volcanic soil: +3
Non-navigable river: +1
Navigable river: +2
Gem mine: +1
Good Ocean Harbor: +1
Forest/Lumber: +1
Seafood: +1

Bonuses stack but you can't get multiple bonuses from one source. If you have a city with 3 hexes of Seafood +1, 2 hexes of sand dunes +0, 1 hex of Good farmland +1 and 1 hex of Non-navigable River +1, you get a total of +3 for a max city size of 4. The extra 2 hexes of seafood don't give a bonus.

[Nihila]

I'm mainly looking at Erf rather than Earth, but since we don't have a lot of information on Erf...

Good farmland: +1
Great farmland: +2
Great farmland with volcanic soil: +3
Non-navigable river: +1
Navigable river: +2
Gem mine: +1
Good Ocean Harbor: +1
Forest/Lumber: +1
Seafood: +1

Bonuses stack but you can't get multiple bonuses from one source. If you have a city with 3 hexes of Seafood +1, 2 hexes of sand dunes +0, 1 hex of Good farmland +1 and 1 hex of Non-navigable River +1, you get a total of +3 for a max city size of 4. The extra 2 hexes of seafood don't give a bonus.

It's also important to remember that not all coastal cities have a good harbor. I would define "Good Ocean Harbor" as flatland or hills (not mountains) under the city hex. Its kinda hard to land a boat on a mountain or cliff.

[Twoy]

It's also important to remember that not all coastal cities have a good harbor.

Agreed. On Earth we have 10's of thousand of examples of villages on the coast that do not have a good harbor; however, I think it should be possible to have a good harbor next to a mountain hex. Greece has a few examples of good harbors surrounded by mountains, or at least large hills.

[Crovius]

This sounds suspiciously more like Civilization: revolution for the Console, which used grid maps, and surrounding squares granted a certain amount of food, production, and science or gold depending what you tasked the city with. At the beginning of each turn, every city accumulated its own food, which wold slowly increase the size of the city (thus increasing it's work force and how many tiles that city can use), its own production which will add to the completion of the qued units or building for that city, and if the city is set to gatehr science it adds to the total science, which will increase until the side learns a new tech (can take anywhere from a couple turns to 20 ormore depending on how much science the side is accumulating every turn) or if the city is gathering gold it adds that to the side's coffers. Gold's main purpose is building roads, speeding up production, or bribing sides.

[Twoy]

Seafood came from Civilization. The rest came directly either from Erfworld or Kaed's or DarkArbiter's version of Erfworld. Except the rivers; they came from BLANDCorporatio.