Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

[Sir Shadow]

And it could not be, say, flung because...? I think you're the one being kind of dense, no offense, if you can't imagine any other way it could be used.

EDIT: Also, it's been stated often enough that Yellow Dwagons are one of the weaker types. If they really did get something like a 2x bonus vs ground targets (or any bonus at all, really), I don't think that would be the case.

[Lord of Monies]

First, imagine you're a bird. Your poop is for some reason really strong, so you just aim and drop. Now you're saying you're gonna fling said poop? It limits your range to how far you can throw for starters which is nothing compared to an aerial bombing and I also kind of think extra damage comes from gravity affecting it to help the collision, then the crap damage after.

Also double damage against ground, if that's the only bonus, could mean the yellows are still weak generally. Against other air units their attack could be sub-par compared to other dwagons, and maybe they have a lower defense too. They'd have one particular strength so as to stand out amongst the other dwagons, but the trade-off is being slightly weaker in other stats.

[Sir Shadow]

I"m saying what if you had a giant monkey unit with battlecrap.

[Lord of Monies]

Then my point is unchanged. Not only would your range be greatly limited all of a sudden, but you'd also be firing much slower as he can only crap out as much as he can hold, fire, then repeat, whereas the flying unit need not wait between volleys. Just loose rapid fire or a stream, if his bowels don't exactly agree with him.

Maybe there is an argument for land units to have battlecrap, but it makes much more sense for fliers to have it.

[Kaed]

Then my point is unchanged. Not only would your range be greatly limited all of a sudden, but you'd also be firing much slower as he can only crap out as much as he can hold, fire, then repeat, whereas the flying unit need not wait between volleys. Just loose rapid fire or a stream, if his bowels don't exactly agree with him.

Maybe there is an argument for land units to have battlecrap, but it makes much more sense for fliers to have it.

Nonsense. The dwagon has almost 0 horizontal range, whereas the monkey would be able to make artillery attacks, perhaps even fling poop at air units. It's versatility would far exceed the dwagons, whose only benefit is he can be high in the air above you, where you can still see him before the crap falls.

[0beron]

The point I was hinting at is that perhaps part of the reason battlecrap could be so powerful is that it incorporates "fall" damage. Hence why it'd have to be air units.

And also, as a rule of thumb, we try and stick as close to the comic evidence as possible, so the hypothetical of a monkey flinging poo isn't really relevant to the spirit of the game.

[Sir Shadow]

And also, as a rule of thumb, we try and stick as close to the comic evidence as possible, so the hypothetical of a monkey flinging poo isn't really relevant to the spirit of the game.

maybe battlecrap is a unit trait of yellow dwagons and we're breaking the spirit of the game by making a special any unit can have?

[Lord of Monies]

At which point it becomes Kaed's ruling, which seems to be if you can justify it in some way then go you, you deserve it. I can't however, no matter what I try, so I'm gonna have to think of something else. Leadership is tempting, but I was really hoping to have a real high combat on my almonds. When I next have a chunk of time to dedicate, I'll do some zlda research and see if anything appropriate comes to mind.

[Exate]

The fact that I gave a burrowing unit battlecrap is a reflection of my general approach to unit design in this game. Specifically, "know what flavor you want, and then kick the rules until they fit". I wanted to build a gigantic burrowing unit that could utterly shred things by coming up from beneath them and devouring them. So there I am, looking at the unit options- and hey, this ability gives a massive damage boost against ground units only! Could it be any more perfect for that unit concept? Sure, it's called "battlecrap" in the specials listing, but what does that matter? It's just Signamancy, as they say. That statistical bonus could be expressed in hundreds of ways.

And also, as a rule of thumb, we try and stick as close to the comic evidence as possible, so the hypothetical of a monkey flinging poo isn't really relevant to the spirit of the game.

A giant monkey flinging poo is 100% Erfworld-flavor compliant. There comes a point at which one has to break free of strict comic evidence and start making things up so that everyone can have a better time without sweating the details, and unit design is one of those points. It would be non-fun to only allow the use of units and unit types seen in the comic, so we're making them up- and that demands a certain willingness to be flexible. As long as a unit is flavorful (references and jokes incorporated into its design give bonus points) and within the general ballpark of balanced, it's fine.

Related to this, I would much rather have a couple dozen generically-named specials which we then have individual players provide the flavor for than super-detailed and super-specific specials that only really make sense in flavor when considering the specific unit they were designed for. While Erfgame is intended to accurately model Erfworld as much as possible, it's also intended to be a playable game, and flexibility and generic components are generally good game design features in a large system like this.

[Lord of Monies]

It's not really relating to the rules, but still, having the 4th arkentool be revealed is pretty cool. Wonder what they do. Teleport? Able to legitimately send Parson back?

[Sir Shadow]

While the [Silver] Slippers from the Wizard of Oz were capable of sending their user anywhere they wished, I'm not sure the reference will extend that far into the comic... Then again, having teleporting shoes would be pretty awesome.

[Lord of Monies]

In erfworld, teleporting becomes more awesome the larger scale it can do. If it can't teleport more than the wielder, then it means that the ruler is almost always safe from harm even if she would still be restricted by move. The arkentools have always been known to be much greater than that, though, so either it can teleport on a large scale, or perhaps more likely it's a form of wish granting. Might be too powerful, but we're only thinking teleport cuz dorothy wished to go home. If the shoes allow any other wish or desire, then sky's the limit. Shoes are possibly the most powerful tool of all. If wish-granting is the case.

[Sir Shadow]

In the books, which is why I specifically said the Silver Shoes, they only had the power to transport you anywhere you wished.

In the movie, the powers of the Ruby Red Slippers are more ambiguous and not clearly defined...

[Lord of Monies]

Ohhhh, ok, that's cool. Most likely just a teleporting aspect then, and they do look like they would be able to take Parson back home...so logical extension might be that they could transport you to the City of Heroes? Might be the only arkentools that allow you to actually meet the Titans. That would be impressive.

[Exate]

Finally finishing Turn 16. Hopefully the next few turns won't be quite so action-packed.

...oh, who am I kidding? If more than a couple turns pass without action, I'll go looking again. The world won't conquer itself.

[Lord of Monies]

I've ended my turn 16, but waiting for the circumstances of another side now. One the one hand, Daphnes isn't expecting much to go down. On the other hand, based on that reason alone he expects trouble to occur. Hard to tell, but yay caution.

[0beron]

Thankfully I have not yet had that unpleasant "Victoria Ends Turn, and the sun doesn't set" experience.

[Lord of Monies]

Probably because as a Barbarian my turn always comes first, so be on the lookout for dawn rising and it not being your turn then.

[Exate]

Just spent a little time taking a look at the numbers of units I've popped and how many of them are alive right now. I know Erfworld is based on wargames, which are extremely violent, but realizing that I've led my side into horrific casualty ratios without blinking is still kind of disconcerting. My scouts are the worst; they're up around 80% fatalities.

At least it keeps upkeep low. Well, low-ish. I'd wish it was lower except that that would involve losing even more troops.

[Kaed]

Life did that "sucking my will to do things away" thing again. But I've recovered. Mostly. Going to try and send out some updates today!