Book 2 – Text Updates 008

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:50 pm

Sinrus, would that pre-Mycenian culture be the Minoan one?

Archaeological records are sparse but these suggest the Minoans worshipped goddesses, including (it's a very common one across cultures) a Mother Goddess of Fertility, which may have been conflated with the Mistress of Animals (another Minoan goddess apparently) to give the Mycenian Gaia.

Stress "may have been". I'm amazed at how all these things can be known at all. Last I checked the number of texts from the Minoan civilisation is very little. Their culture was assimilated into the Mycenian one through generations of oral transmission.

The Minoans lived on what today is called Crete, and were one of the first flourishing civilisations in Europe. For some reason (some say volcanic), they suffered a decline and were replaced by the Mycenians- but this "replacement" does not necessarily mean armed conflict, just stepping up when the place of top dog is not claimed anymore.

And one more thing. Zeus was god supreme, ok. But Gaia was still worshipped. The generational struggle of the Greek gods may be less about interethnic conflict and more about, who knows, the Oedipus complex.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Menas » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:59 pm

Sinrus wrote:Actually, both Jews and Muslims believe that they descended from Abraham. Jews from his son Isaac, and Muslims from his son Ishmael. Also, the angel who appeared to Muhammad is the angel Gabriel; the same one who visited the the Virgin Mary. The difference is that Islam teaches that Muhammad was the last prophet, which neither Judaism nor Christianity accept. Also, both Jews and Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, as opposed to the son of God.


It's true that the angel that Muhammad (either spelling works) claimed to have appeared to him is Gabriel. And the rest may be true as well; I'm not very familiar with the Koran.

The point I was trying to make is that Muslims aren't going by the Old Testament, they're going by the Koran. Many people believe that the reason there are so many elements of Judaism (and some from Christianity as well, if they believe Jesus was a prophet) is because of the knowledge Mohammed had of these religions when Islam was founded. Muslims accept this as part of the book that was handed down to Muhammed, that had nothing to do with Muhammed's own knowledge.

But again, even though they share some of the same elements within their religions, they're not going by the same 'user manual'. Which sets Islam apart from the others, because Judaism and Christianity share a book of authority, and Christianity was founded out of that book, but Islam shares neither source.

Judaism - Operates in accordance with the Old Testament, as led by the Holy Spirit.
Christianity - Operates in accordance with the Old and New Testaments, as led by the Holy Spirit.
Islam - Operates in accordance with the Koran, which contains some elements of Judaism and Christianity, but more so Judaism. I don't know if Muslims believe in the Holy Spirit or not. I have a friend that's islamic, I think I'll ask him next time I see him =).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby TMZ_Cinoros » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:33 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Ninjaguineapig wrote:Jews and Christians don't recognize the existence of Ba'al, since they are monotheistic religions.


The other part of your post has been answered to, so I'll stick to this one.

TODAY, Jews, Christians and Muslims do not recognise the existence of Baal.

Back when the Ten Commandments were given, it is arguable that the situation was different. That is, originally the existence of other gods was aknowledged but these other gods must not be worshipped by the Chosen People. For instance:

Michah 4:5 (KJV) wrote:For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.


Exodus 15:11 (KJV) wrote:Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?


This of course changed to complete religious exclusivism soon enough. In any case, what the Bible does in the Old Testament is provide a supposedly historical account of the struggles between the peoples of Israel and other tribes in the region, and the conflict is frequently framed in both military and religious terms. And it's not always against Baal either, of course, but that's the more persistent antagonist. There are also showdowns with Egyptian and Sumerian clerics for instance.


As an aside, the proper term for how Judaism used to be is Monolatrism (from the roots of monos for single, and latreia for worship). Monolatrism is the belief in one true god that is worthy of worship and the recognition of other gods that are not worthy of worship (i.e.: A true God and a collection of false gods). The wikipedia link I gave gives more information about Monolatrism.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:44 am

OK, now I'm thoroughly confused. (not that this strip isn't confusing enough at times...)

First, why are people saying Sylvia is Scarlet? Scarlet was killed in the eruption of Gobwin Knob, and (apparently) decrypted and has turned up recently on GK's side.

Second, I thought everyone in Unaroyal disappeared (presumably from existence) when Queen Bea died.

What am I missing?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby madmaw » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:15 am

Just had to say, the art is really looking good. The first panel of this page in particular is excellent.

Also

JenBurdoo wrote:OK, now I'm thoroughly confused. (not that this strip isn't confusing enough at times...)

First, why are people saying Sylvia is Scarlet? Scarlet was killed in the eruption of Gobwin Knob, and (apparently) decrypted and has turned up recently on GK's side.

Second, I thought everyone in Unaroyal disappeared (presumably from existence) when Queen Bea died.

What am I missing?


To quote Parson "If you read that question again, JenBurdoo, you'll notice that it answers itself". But since you asked, Scarlet was an unofficial name given to Sylvia before Rob revealed her real name last text update. She was decrypted and, as a result, joined GK's side after The Battle for GK. Although originally from Unaroyal, she is now a member of GK so would not disband when her old side was destroyed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby multilis » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:54 pm

"both Jews and Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, as opposed to the son of God"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus

Orthodox Jews especially would view Jesus as a false prophet/extra evil, son of harlot, etc.

"Judaism - Operates in accordance with the Old Testament, as led by the Holy Spirit"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

Jews have a Talmud/oral law usually believing "fundamental Rabbinic concept that the Oral Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai together with the Written Law", and this often has more importance than the 'Old Testament'".


"Christianity - Operates in accordance with the Old and New Testaments, as led by the Holy Spirit."

Different groups tend to have different later bodies of tradition that to a large degree describe their worship. Eg, Catholics, priests are forbidden to marry comes from a middle ages tradition, according to "New Testament" Peter had a mother in law and Paul writes how he and Peter and others are free to have a wife. (First link searching google for "Paul wife bible" brings up http://minuteswithmessiah.tripod.com/qu ... lwife.html, not sure how accurate this site is)


Muslims are divided over whether their leaders are elected or biological descendant of their greatest prophet, which is vaguely like Royalism or Toolism in Erfworld. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Shi.27a)

...

In Erfworld we haven't yet seen much religious tradition, beyond references to Titans and afterlife. They may have more tradition related to Magic than religion and no idea how accurate their tradition is, eg Aristotle and Plato long affected science and religion with their beliefs in "Earth/Air/Water/Fire", "Perfect Circles/Celestial Spheres" and "Immortality"

Sizemore hints that magic kingdom beliefs are more based on philosophy than testing.
Last edited by multilis on Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:23 pm

TMZ_Cinoros wrote:As an aside, the proper term for how Judaism used to be is Monolatrism (from the roots of monos for single, and latreia for worship). Monolatrism is the belief in one true god that is worthy of worship and the recognition of other gods that are not worthy of worship (i.e.: A true God and a collection of false gods). The wikipedia link I gave gives more information about Monolatrism.


Thank you, I've been looking for what the technical term is without much luck!

And yeah that page has some links to what scholars actually hold the position that early Judaism was monolatric as opposed to full-on monotheistic with religious exclusivism thrown in. As with all matters pertaining to ancient history, it's not a shut case either way.

multilis wrote:Different groups tend to have different later bodies of tradition that to a large degree describe their worship.


Amen to that, no pun intended. The whole Kabbalist tradition is also a Middle Age addition as far as I can recall. Then there's also people arguing that Hell is a later, as in Middle Age, addition to Christian dogma. It's not as stupid as it sounds, the lake of fire described in the Book of Revelations can be interpreted to mean as a definitive destruction rather than the house-of-horrors popular among today's fundies, and the fact that people need to be ressurrected bodily could suggest that the early Christians were not hardcore/consistent soul-body dualists. Agreed, a tenuous interpretation. In any case, Purgatory is a later addition to Catholic Dogma.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby multilis » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:02 pm

Thinking about it, Erfworld feels closer to Norse mythology (Vikings were often at war)... if you die you may go to "hall of heroes" (Norse Valhalla)... the "heroes" suggests those better at war and "good guys" may get better afterlife. Wanda's references to fate is similar to Norse Norns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Menas » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:12 pm

Well, I never meant to suggest that within the different groups of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that different people didn't have different ideas of how to do things, based on different interpretations of their sources. That would be silly, and certainly a departure from reality.

I was just outlining what the written forms of those sources are =).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby JenBurdoo » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:47 pm

To quote Parson "If you read that question again, JenBurdoo, you'll notice that it answers itself"


Ah, I see where I went wrong now. I didn't look at the illustration closely enough. The erroneous impression I got from the text update was that Sylvia was preparing to fight on Slately's side, which suggested that she was someone alive, not decrypted. I didn't connect her with "Red" at all.

Thanks for the correction.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Cannor » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:13 pm

Sinrus wrote:
Actually, one of the many names for the devil is Beelzebub, which, translated, means 'Follower of Ba'al.'


I have seen that translation before, but its a later Christian translation. Ba'al from Caanite/Phoenician to English is better translated to Lord. There were many Ba'als, and was a title that can be used for people as well as gods. Beelzebub is demonized (or slandered) form the deity Ba'al Zebub, The Lord of Ekron. The part where they call Beelzebub, "The lord of the Flies" comes from Ba'al Zebub's title, "The Lord of all that flies".
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