Book 2 – Text Updates 007

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby raphfrk » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:08 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:
teratorn wrote:Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.


No, thats not necessarily true. It would be true only if GK had an advantage, which with Ansom's bonuses, they might. Otherwise, Jetstone could use one soldier to kill two GK forces and GK would only get back half the forces they lost.


They would have to make sure they targeted decrypted GK units. Otherwise, the 2 GK units that were croaked and the Jetstone unit would all be decryptable.

Ofc, most of GKs forces (esp the ones with Wanda) are likely to be decrypted, due to the bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:15 pm

teratorn wrote:Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.

GK will use the jetstone units to replenish their lost units... however, if the Jetstone's can croak more GK units than there are Jetstone units then GK will still end up loosing numbers... This might be possible if Jetstone is strong enough and they were to make good use of the defensive position at the castle.

Also it's possible that Haggar underestimated how far decryption can go; such as not realizing that it has unlimited use
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Menas » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:22 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:
teratorn wrote:Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.


No, thats not necessarily true. It would be true only if GK had an advantage, which with Ansom's bonuses, they might. Otherwise, Jetstone could use one soldier to kill two GK forces and GK would only get back half the forces they lost. With the benefit of three casters, attacking the main Jetstone force is likely to result in far greater casualties for GK than for Jetstone, even if they have the forces to prevail in the end.

So, Haggar probably thought Decryption was similar to croakamancy, useful, but not overpowerful. The side with the croakamancer gets some additional forces, but stil has to sacrifice to come out ahead against a sufficient force.


What teratorn said appears to be true by definition to me, assuming Wanda survives the battle. If I'm understanding correctly, what teratorn meant was this:

"If GK's forces win, and Wanda survives, then after the battle GK's forces will always be stronger than the enemy they just defeated (Jetstone in this case)."

As long as Wanda survives, this will always be true, since Wanda can decrypt the entire enemy army. So Wanda will have the army they just defeated plus whoever survived on her own side, which is better than the army they just defeated by itself was.

It's true that GK could still suffer a net loss in this situation, i.e., they might start out with ten times the number of forces that their enemy has, and then only have Wanda left standing after the fight when they win. And let's just say for argument's sake that everyone on Wanda's side was already decrypted before the fight. So in that case they'd only have approximately 1/10 of the army they began with after the battle (and decryption), but they'd still be stronger than the army they just defeated ;).

NOTE: This is basically the same thing MonteCristo said in his last post lol. I've been ninja'ed!
Last edited by Menas on Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:31 pm

Menas wrote:As long as Wanda survives, this will always be true, since Wanda can decrypt the entire enemy army. So Wanda will have the army they just defeated plus whoever survived on her own side, which is better than the army they just defeated by itself was.


It's not a guarantee.

First, Wanda may need to decrypt forces mid-battle in order to succeed. Many of those forces could become dusted in the process.
Second, we know (although Jetstone might not know) that bodies can be destroyed in such a way that they are useless for decryption. If they have sufficient forces or time, they could have their reserves eliminate the bodies.
Third (not applicable in this case, since it's GK's turn), they could attack, then disband, using Unaroyal's disbanding tactic. Hit GK, do as much damage as you can without suffering losses, then disband before GK can react.

Any of these are means by which GK could be weakened, emerge victorious, and still be potentially weaker than they side they just defeated.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Menas » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:50 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Menas wrote:As long as Wanda survives, this will always be true, since Wanda can decrypt the entire enemy army. So Wanda will have the army they just defeated plus whoever survived on her own side, which is better than the army they just defeated by itself was.


It's not a guarantee.

First, Wanda may need to decrypt forces mid-battle in order to succeed. Many of those forces could become dusted in the process.
Second, we know (although Jetstone might not know) that bodies can be destroyed in such a way that they are useless for decryption. If they have sufficient forces or time, they could have their reserves eliminate the bodies.
Third (not applicable in this case, since it's GK's turn), they could attack, then disband, using Unaroyal's disbanding tactic. Hit GK, do as much damage as you can without suffering losses, then disband before GK can react.

Any of these are means by which GK could be weakened, emerge victorious, and still be potentially weaker than they side they just defeated.


Fair points.

The first point doesn't really apply to the argument I was making, since I was assuming that decryption occurred after the battle. But if she did choose or needed to decrypt units mid-battle that would certainly add another factor to it, and lessen the gain after the fight.

The third point doesn't really apply because I said 'the army they just defeated'. So if someone disbanded then the units that were disbanded wouldn't technically apply to the army that was just defeated. Which brings up an interesting point. It seems like Wanda should have been able to go into the ex-capital city for Unaroyal to decrypt the queen that had just killed herself?

And the second point applies regardless, I'd just forgotten about it.

So basically what I'm trying to say is:

- My argument wasn't framed to account for your first point, but your point is valid and could happen. I just didn't take it into account because I haven't seen it happen yet (except in the case of Ossomer). If Wanda behaved as you described it would certainly lessen the forces available to decrypt after the fight was over.
- Your second point is solid. Totally forgot about that. I haven't seen this significantly affect the amount of forces that Wanda could decrypt yet though (only seen one instance where it's mattered for one unit).
- Your third point is a matter of whether we agree on what 'defeated army' means or not =). I don't consider 'disbanded' to equal 'defeated'. Based on what we've seen so far though, it doesn't seem like what you suggested would work very well. Wanda can decrypt units so quickly that even with a brief attack prior to disbanding, she'd have access to any units that died prior to disbanding. Unless it was a matter of attacking with catapaults or some other long range weapon where the unit couldn't be killed prior to disbanding.
Last edited by Menas on Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:51 pm

Angband wrote:Can someone with more knowledge of Sammy Hagar's oeuvre than me please point out some of the song-related puns in this update?


The most important one is "There's only one Way to Rock!". That's one of Hagar's hits and it can easily be done call and response style at a concert. That would allow maximum bonuses from the forces that don't have dance fighting but can at least headbang.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:56 pm

Menas wrote:
Which brings up an intersting point. It seems like Wanda should have been able to go into the ex-capital city for Unaroyal to decrypt the queen that had just killed herself?


No. Queen Bea didn't stabbity herself or drink awsnic. She went into the teleport chamber to the Magic Kindom and got killed by the bug zapper. Wanda might have followed her but she'd have a very hostile reception.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Menas » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:59 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
Menas wrote:
Which brings up an intersting point. It seems like Wanda should have been able to go into the ex-capital city for Unaroyal to decrypt the queen that had just killed herself?


No. Queen Bea didn't stabbity herself or drink awsnic. She went into the teleport chamber to the Magic Kindom and got killed by the bug zapper. Wanda might have followed her but she'd have a very hostile reception.


Good call. Thanks for that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby The Minx » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:26 pm

It's times like these when one wishes that webcomics had sound. Because that would rock. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Gez » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:44 pm

The Minx wrote:It's times like these when one wishes that webcomics had sound. Because that would rock. :)

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:17 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
Menas wrote:
Which brings up an intersting point. It seems like Wanda should have been able to go into the ex-capital city for Unaroyal to decrypt the queen that had just killed herself?


No. Queen Bea didn't stabbity herself or drink awsnic. She went into the teleport chamber to the Magic Kindom and got killed by the bug zapper. Wanda might have followed her but she'd have a very hostile reception.
The magic portal disbands non-casters*. And disbanding basically depops the units. Nothing to decrypt. Otherwise Unaroyal wouldn't have been a disaster at all.


*The portal appears to have security flaws.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Thydron » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:32 pm

Menas wrote:What teratorn said appears to be true by definition to me, assuming Wanda survives the battle. If I'm understanding correctly, what teratorn meant was this:

"If GK's forces win, and Wanda survives, then after the battle GK's forces will always be stronger than the enemy they just defeated (Jetstone in this case)."


All Jetstone would have to do, assuming their units are pretty equally matched to GK's, is make sure that each of their troops dusts at least one decrypted - that way even if they get turned to GK's side, GK will be weaker afterwards.
Given the pretty big bonuses from defending a city, and the casters, i don't think thats an unreasonable expectation for Haggar to have.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Raza » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:34 pm

Menas wrote:Third (not applicable in this case, since it's GK's turn), they could attack, then disband, using Unaroyal's disbanding tactic. Hit GK, do as much damage as you can without suffering losses, then disband before GK can react.

Any of these are means by which GK could be weakened, emerge victorious, and still be potentially weaker than they side they just defeated.

This would be clever against a decrypting force; have a thinkamancer dedicated to providing direct feedback on unit health and disband units when they're badly wounded. You'd be a fair bit weaker, but unless you've got a healamancer it beats having every fallen unit get back up to kill you. Any zombie movie will tell you that's a no-win situation.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Menas » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:53 pm

Raza wrote:
Menas wrote:Third (not applicable in this case, since it's GK's turn), they could attack, then disband, using Unaroyal's disbanding tactic. Hit GK, do as much damage as you can without suffering losses, then disband before GK can react.

Any of these are means by which GK could be weakened, emerge victorious, and still be potentially weaker than they side they just defeated.

This would be clever against a decrypting force; have a thinkamancer dedicated to providing direct feedback on unit health and disband units when they're badly wounded. You'd be a fair bit weaker, but unless you've got a healamancer it beats having every fallen unit get back up to kill you. Any zombie movie will tell you that's a no-win situation.


If it's possible to disband units in this way, then yes, that could be a very effective tactic against Wanda. Some units would take enough damage at once to kill them outright though, and this method wouldn't prevail in those cases.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby theseus2x » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:20 pm

If Slately is anything like Ansom and Ossamer, I can't see him going down like that. He'll swing for the fences, IMHO.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby OneHugeTuck » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:31 pm

I was really liking Stanley.

But with this update, I am reminded that he really is a tool.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby theseus2x » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:09 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:I was really liking Stanley.

But with this update, I am reminded that he really is a tool.


Its in his nature to treat Parson like shit. Parson bailed him out twice in Book 1, winning the battle of GK AND getting Charlie not to help croak him on the trip to Faq. (With Archons, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind Stanley would have been toast. Jack's veils wouldn't have saved him.) But if Stanley acknowledged any of that, he'd have to acknowledge his own failures. Stanley's ego can't do that, so he swings in the opposite direction.

Does he even realize Ansom isn't even with the column???
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Sinrus » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:27 pm

Of course he doesn't. Wanda forbade him to tell Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Shoki » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:05 am

So without that thinkamancy setup his battle map could misleading or will he not understand till she takes off and sees his figure remaining on the ground. I always thought a overlord had a connection to his warlords as he knew when one (manpower?) died. But not sure if this is similar to don/vinny bat connection or just a sense.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Krennson » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:48 am

Sinrus wrote:Of course he doesn't. Wanda forbade him to tell Stanley.


which says unpleasant things about Wanda's loyalty and duty, and Ansom's allegiance.

hmmmm.... you know.....

Ok, assume Wanda works for stanley, and has at least minimal loyalty and duty stats in regard to stanley.

Assume that wanda, PERSONALLY, cannot attack stanley without auto-disbanding.

BUT, Ansom is loyal to wanda, but apparently, is NOT loyal to stanley. If ansom were loyal to stanley, duty would compel him to inform stanley that he believed wanda to be acting against the best interests of Gobwin Knob.

Can Wanda order ANSOM, to attack Stanley? Can Ansom decide, ON HIS OWN, that wanda's best interests are served by him attacking stanley, even when wanda gave no such order?

If Ansom isn't loyal to stanley, ANSOM may be able to attack without disbanding.

That might also explain the attempted coup against Don king, and Saline IV's death....
What if warlords can hire mercs and/or natural allies so that the hirelings are loyal to the warlord, and NOT loyal to the King? Then he can order them to revolt, or leave them in the optimum position to revolt, if and when they draw their own, personal, conclusions.
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