Book 2 - Text Updates 004

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby multilis » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:10 am

Infidel wrote:If parson was a natural ally, then he would have been poppable after a technological upgrade, if not from the beginning. This was a one-time scroll, ergo, he can't be a natural ally. Plus, the scroll forces Parson to ally, it's hardly a natural coincidence of interests that a natural ally would have.

"he would have been poppable after a technological upgrade" Gobwins and witches are only poppable if you have one.

"This was a one-time scroll, ergo, he can't be a natural ally." Why not? He already is a warlord who might be a caster, he is different (bigger) than erfworld humans so somehow squeezed into rules. Not saying he is a natural ally but we know game rules can be stretched (perhaps intentionally by will of titans rewarding thinking outside of box), eg uncroak volcano.

The spell controlling Parson does not prove what he is, thinkomancy magic has been hinted to be powerful/scary, and master of Thinkomancy Charlie so far has the most shown influence over natural allies.

Parson is supposedly there because Erfworld wanted/needed him. Erfworld could always decide that more earthworlders are needed and provide a means other than 350K spell.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby DevilDan » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:22 am

I assume guilt modifies loyalty such that it makes it likelier that a unit will choose to disobey orders at some point?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:00 am

gameboy1234 wrote:
Also, Vurp talk like cheesy 50's movie Indian chief now. Why?


There be no quote from Vurp in text update 004. Some cheesy movie have character use third person form and talk about self same time. In text update 004 Rob talk about Vurp not Vurp talk about Vurp. Some 1950 movie script writer depict character who speak other language. Some other language lack first, second, and/or third person form. Some language also lack article, plural, possess, future, and/or past form. Cheezy movie character use third person because all verb form translate to same word. Simple grammar appropriate for hobgoblin BMO [be my opinion]
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby GobwinPie » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:29 am

Tensor wrote:He felt guilty of lying to him, because: "Vurp had one feeling about lying to him. That feeling was this: “guilt.”


My point was that I'm not sure whether he's more bothered by his current sins (the fact that he's lying) or his past sins (his motivation for lying). The statement works either way (and he could feel guilty about both).
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Katana » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:49 am

Fully up to date now...Excellent stuff as always Rob. Your writing is inspirational.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:04 am

Okay, here's what we know:
  • Stanley was a piker who got promoted to warlord. As a warlord, he found the Arkenhammer and won a lot of battles.
  • Saline named him chief warlord, then heir designate, then he croaked, making him an overlord.
  • The Gobwins broke their alliance.
  • Charlie appears to have some influence over natural allies based on Parson's calculations about the Gobwin shortage and Jillian's acquisition of the Giants.
  • Stanley hates Charlie.
  • Stanley liked Saline.

I think it's pretty obvious that Charlie was involved in Saline's fall. That's why Stanley hates him. We can only speculate why he did it (might've just been after the 'Hammer and didn't know Stanley was heir designate), but I'll wager my huevo izquierdo that he was in on it.

Now here's something we don't know: Did Stanley sack Faq as a Warlord or as an Overlord?

If he sacked Faq back when he was a Warlord, then and only then is it possible that Wanda was involved in Saline's fall. Possible. Not likely as with Charlie. In fact when you really compare her to Charlie, the only reason anyone might have to think she did it is that they don't like her now. Despite what Fable may have lead you to believe, hair styles do not retroactively turn people evil.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Lamech » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:27 pm

I also would like to say the artwork is excellent. Very nicely done on Parson.

multilis wrote:
Infidel wrote:If parson was a natural ally, then he would have been poppable after a technological upgrade, if not from the beginning. This was a one-time scroll, ergo, he can't be a natural ally. Plus, the scroll forces Parson to ally, it's hardly a natural coincidence of interests that a natural ally would have.

"he would have been poppable after a technological upgrade" Gobwins and witches are only poppable if you have one.

"This was a one-time scroll, ergo, he can't be a natural ally." Why not? He already is a warlord who might be a caster, he is different (bigger) than erfworld humans so somehow squeezed into rules. Not saying he is a natural ally but we know game rules can be stretched (perhaps intentionally by will of titans rewarding thinking outside of box), eg uncroak volcano.

The spell controlling Parson does not prove what he is, thinkomancy magic has been hinted to be powerful/scary, and master of Thinkomancy Charlie so far has the most shown influence over natural allies.

Parson is supposedly there because Erfworld wanted/needed him. Erfworld could always decide that more earthworlders are needed and provide a means other than 350K spell.
If Parson could be popped as a natural ally by having him say... join the hobgobwin tribe one would have found a much bigger exploit. Popping Parsons would probably really be the equivilant of popping humans. Perhaps fully formed wargamers, good warlords and all, possibly with some ways to bypass standard erf rules, but nothing uber broken. The abuse would come if somehow a dwagon turned. Or a caster. Or a marbit, and a gobwin, and one of every unit type GK has.

I suspect that popping of units is a function of the tribe. NOT of the units the tribe has. If it was just the units they contained, at the very least an endless supply of elves and marbits and gobwins could be had with no trouble.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby theseus2x » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:17 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:I think it's pretty obvious that Charlie was involved in Saline's fall. That's why Stanley hates him. We can only speculate why he did it (might've just been after the 'Hammer and didn't know Stanley was heir designate), but I'll wager my huevo izquierdo that he was in on it.


I disagree strongly. Yes, Stanley hates Charlie. I feel this is for other reasons.

Reasons why Stanley might hate Charlie :
a) Charlie is a pain for intelligent leaders to deal with, much less Stanley.
b) Charlie is also Attuned - that's bad for someone who considers himself the sole Tool. (Look how Wanda is no longer Stanley's favorite caster.)
c) Stanley's mentality is "you're with me or against me". Since Charlie isn't with him, of course he'll hate him.

Let us assume Charlie was involved in Saline's fall. Reasons why THIS reason doesn't seem to work :
a) Charlie is clever enough to pull a move like that without leaving fingerprints. No way Stanley could put 2 and 2 together.
b) If Stanley knew Charlie's role, odds are other people would have, too. That would have destroyed Charlie's rep with the Royal sides.
c) If Stanley knew Charlie's role, Sizemore would have known Charlie's role.

In other words, I think Stanley would go apeshit if he found out there was a VERY good chance Charlie was involved in Saline's death.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Sinrus » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:24 pm

Want to attempt to dispell a few theories here:

1. Wanda can't have been involved in the coup unless she was captured when Stanley was a warlord.
This is impossible to prove because she may have orchestrated the coup in order to replace Saline with Stanley, who may have been was more likely to attack Faq than Saline was.

2. Parson is a natural ally.
This is incorrect because he has no choice but follow Stanley's orders. Natural allies like hobgobwins are not under Stanley's control.

3. The hobgobwins could capture Parson and pop more of him.
This is incorrect because A: Sides can only pop units designated by a city that they own. I'm not sure how that translates into tribe terms, but GK now owns archons, but they can't pop more, and B: A Parson isn't a type of unit. He's a warlord, and all warlords are unique.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Infidel » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:43 pm

multilis wrote:
Infidel wrote:If parson was a natural ally, then he would have been poppable after a technological upgrade, if not from the beginning. This was a one-time scroll, ergo, he can't be a natural ally. Plus, the scroll forces Parson to ally, it's hardly a natural coincidence of interests that a natural ally would have.

"he would have been poppable after a technological upgrade" Gobwins and witches are only poppable if you have one.


I actually consider having a godwin or witch a tech upgrade. No real difference between trading for a technology advancement, or allying with someone. So you require one Ogre Mound to make Ogres. Even though some units allow you to pop the same type of units, just having one of a unit does not usually grant the ability of popping more of the same units unless it is an expressly stated ability of that unit. The reason Vurp can pop gobwins is because he is the chief. Parson is not the chief. I do not believe that Stanley can disband Vurp with a thought.

Why not? He already is a warlord who might be a caster, he is different (bigger) than erfworld humans so somehow squeezed into rules. Not saying he is a natural ally but we know game rules can be stretched (perhaps intentionally by will of titans rewarding thinking outside of box), eg uncroak volcano.


There was foreshadowing over all of that, there has been nothing in story to indicate this at all. No exclaimation from Stanley, "Stay in line, or I'll just pop another from your tribe and disband you." No, "I can make an unlimited supply of super warlords." Nothing.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby multilis » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:07 pm

Sinrus wrote:...
2. Parson is a natural ally.
This is incorrect because he has no choice but follow Stanley's orders. Natural allies like hobgobwins are not under Stanley's control.
....

To repeat yet again, we don't know what "scary" thinkomancy can do, it is possible that a spell could put a natural ally under Stanley's control. (Charlie may use thinkomancy on natural allies)

It's like saying Parson can't be a mancer because he is a warlord. Parson obviously might be a combo of several things, including under an obediance spell (it took a combo of additional upgrades just to turn him into perfect warlord).

***

We do know that it is more than having a mound/upgrade to a city to pop natural allies such as gobwins, as GK *can't* right now because they don't have 1. *IF* they could find a single gobwin, they could ally with him, give him shmuckers and thus have more popped.

Sounds to me like natural allies are outside of city upgrades, eg no mention of Jillian getting an upgrade to Faq before she allied the Giants, and it seems giving allies shmuckers pops more.
Last edited by multilis on Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby teratorn » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:13 pm

All this talk about having more Parsons pop... I think his "special" skill is that on the turn after he makes it with a female unit, a heavy warlord-like unit pops on his side. Wait until Stanley finds about that.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby multilis » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:23 pm

teratorn wrote:All this talk about having more Parsons pop... I think his "special" skill is that on the turn after he makes it with a female unit, a heavy warlord-like unit pops on his side. Wait until Stanley finds about that.

Lord Hamster, you just popped a daughter. She calls herself Ashna. (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F015.jpg) ;-)

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:38 pm

theseus2x wrote:In other words, I think Stanley would go apeshit if he found out there was a VERY good chance Charlie was involved in Saline's death.

How do you know he didn't? It was a long time ago.

theseus2x wrote:Since Charlie isn't with him, of course he'll hate him.

Except that Charlie is with him. ...for a price.

Once again, you're getting into things we don't know. The further you get away from things we were actually shown in the comic and the updates, the more likely you are to be wrong when it actually comes out. Realize also that book one only spanned about 6 turns. One battle. Think about how many battles Stanley probably fought as a warlord. Think about the ten cities he foolishly lost before GK. Think about all the stuff that could have happened between then and now to explain how everyone feels about each other.

Here's something else we don't know: What was that special mission Stanley took the other casters on? Who ordered it? Who gave him the idea? Maybe he doesn't know Charlie croaked Saline, maybe Charlie got in touch with him and suggested that there was another Arkentool out there somewhere, he went out to look for it, city fell, damn you Charlie you sunk my battleship. He might not be smart enough to figure out who stabbed him in the back, but he is dumb enough to apply blame to someone apparently innocent.

As for Charlie, he probably didn't know Stanley was heir designate. (If you knew him back then, would you believe it if you didn't see it happen?) He figured once the city fell, Stanley would disband, his 'tool would fall to the ground exactly where Charlie told him to go, and he could send some archons to go retrieve it.

But again, this is theory. Circumstance. Maybe it went that way, maybe it didn't. When you look at what we really know, put the few pieces we have together and you're left with a conspicuously Charlescomm-shaped hole.


multilis wrote:Blog: Is it incest to like a girl who in this world somehow became my daugher?

I think she'll be like, "don't call me 'daughter.' It's not fair to..."
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:20 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:As for Charlie, he probably didn't know Stanley was heir designate. (If you knew him back then, would you believe it if you didn't see it happen?) He figured once the city fell, Stanley would disband, his 'tool would fall to the ground exactly where Charlie told him to go, and he could send some archons to go retrieve it.


I don't know, every theory that includes "Charley didn't know" seems flawed to me. For all we know being heir could be a special attributed, listed with all other stats. And Charley is the master of information collection. Stanley have fought a sole battle against the rest of the world, but nothing indicates GK had no allies under Saline. And wouldn't you tell your allies that you have appointed your successful chief warlord with the arkentool to your heir? And even if Saline told nobody about it for some reason, the casters of GK could have mentioned it in small talk in the magic kingdom. Ordinary politics may be not interesting for other casters, but the guy attuned to the arkentool certainly is.

multilis wrote:Blog: Is it incest to like a girl who in this world somehow became my daugher?[


Wouldn't she be his sisters? Parson's extracuricular work may have triggered her pop, but Stanley had ordered her.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Sinrus » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:41 pm

multilis wrote:
Sinrus wrote:...
2. Parson is a natural ally.
This is incorrect because he has no choice but follow Stanley's orders. Natural allies like hobgobwins are not under Stanley's control.
....

To repeat yet again, we don't know what "scary" thinkomancy can do, it is possible that a spell could put a natural ally under Stanley's control. (Charlie may use thinkomancy on natural allies)


Charlie almost certainly uses thinkamancy on just about everybody, especially on the mountain giants. But Stanley is not a thinkamancer and I think Maggie would've told Parson if she had done that. Besides, if Vurp was under Stanley's control, he would effectively be a GK unit and therefore forbidden to lie to Parson.

AllPurposeNerd wrote:As for Charlie, he probably didn't know Stanley was heir designate... He figured once the city fell, Stanley would disband, his 'tool would fall to the ground exactly where Charlie told him to go.


Charlie has the arkendish, so he's the most powerful thinkamancer on erfworld. It's probably best to assume that Charlie knows everything than that Charlie doesn't know a crucial piece of information. And besides, Stanley wouldn't just drop the hammer, he would still keep it. Charley would need to go up against however many dwagons Stanley had, plus artifact and leadership bonuses, plus sizemore and titans know what else.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby GobwinPie » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:03 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:I think it's pretty obvious that Charlie was involved in Saline's fall.


I think the opposite, that's it's pretty obvious Charlie was not involved in Saline's fall. If he had that kind of pull over the Hobgobwins, why would he have left them with Stanley? More importantly, what is Charlie's motive behind having a side allied with GK kill its ruler and then stay allied with GK afterwards? Charlie's motives in tempting the Western Giants to join Jillian are easy to understand, but if Charlie is the mastermind behind Stanley's rise to power, then his motives are utterly inscrutable to me.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Infidel » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:12 pm

multilis wrote:To repeat yet again, we don't know what "scary" thinkomancy can do, it is possible that a spell could put a natural ally under Stanley's control. (Charlie may use thinkomancy on natural allies)


Well, if anyone can do "scary" thinkomancy, it's Charley, not Stanley. We already know that the tools are game breaking, so that means Charlies abilities are not examples of what other leaders may do. So, if Charley can do it, Stanly must be able to as well, doesn't work. I really hate that lable btw, just call it enhanced thinkamancy or something. Right now it's only an assumption that the giant's conversion is a thinkamancy trick. I'm all for bribery myself. I'm sure there is something that would work as an effective bribe to chief, something not related to money or food stores.

Besides, technically, Stanley doesn't pop Gobwins. He gives Smuckers to Vurp and Vurp pops Gobwins.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Nows7 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:13 pm

Infidel wrote:Besides, technically, Stanley doesn't pop Gobwins. He gives Smuckers to Vurp and Vurp pops Gobwins.


Technically, Vurp pops Hobgobwins, not gobwins.

Also the phrase "Vurp pops gobwins" makes me picture a very pregnant Vurp in an apron... with the K.I.S.S. make-up on.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Sinrus » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:03 am

AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHHHHHHHH MY MIIIIIIIIIIIND!!!!!!!!!!!! IT"S SCARRED FOR EVEEEEEEEEEEEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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