Book 2 – Text Updates 003

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Nebulious » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:13 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Scouting units seem to be an exception to auto-attack. Consider the complex orders given to gobwin scouts in the battle under Gobwin Knob: "Gobwin stacks will lead with single scouts sniffing ahead. When the scouts encounter Marbits or unled infantry, they're to attack in force. When they locate warlords and heavies, track them or trap them. And call in Sizemore. If they pursue, lead them into traps, or towards Sizemore."

At this point, the only GK commanders left in GK were the casters and Parson, so how I interpret the above is that the scouts didn't auto-attack, and (being smarter than bats) could selectively allow the regular Gobwins to come into contact with Marbits, at which point auto-attacking would happen.


Here, Parson says stacks without a warlord are forced to auto-attack, but we can't really be sure of how reliable a narrator Parson is at this point. Do orders from a commander/thinkamancer/chief warlord in the same hex/zone provide enough discretion? Are they already attacking and just following complex maneuvers? It's difficult to say.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Spot » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:13 pm

Nebulious wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Scouting units seem to be an exception to auto-attack. Consider the complex orders given to gobwin scouts in the battle under Gobwin Knob: "Gobwin stacks will lead with single scouts sniffing ahead. When the scouts encounter Marbits or unled infantry, they're to attack in force. When they locate warlords and heavies, track them or trap them. And call in Sizemore. If they pursue, lead them into traps, or towards Sizemore."

At this point, the only GK commanders left in GK were the casters and Parson, so how I interpret the above is that the scouts didn't auto-attack, and (being smarter than bats) could selectively allow the regular Gobwins to come into contact with Marbits, at which point auto-attacking would happen.


Here, Parson says stacks without a warlord are forced to auto-attack, but we can't really be sure of how reliable a narrator Parson is at this point. Do orders from a commander/thinkamancer/chief warlord in the same hex/zone provide enough discretion? Are they already attacking and just following complex maneuvers? It's difficult to say.



Well, in military terms, "attacking" isn't the same thing as some sort of kamikaze rush against massed machine guns (like in "Enemy at the Gates"). As a better example from popular entertainment... take a look at the Normandy beach-landing scene in "Saving Private Ryan".

All of the Allied troops (in the movie) are most definitely "attacking", but they are attacking as part of a larger battle plan, and they are fully empowered to do things like (a) duck, (b) take cover when pinned down, and (c) heal the wounded, and (d) try and figure out creative ways of accomplishing their orders... or at least *more* creative than simply charging the enemy at a dead run.

On the other hand... Tom Hanks' character was a Captain, so technically a commander, and therefore his stack wasn't "unled".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Ytaker » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:25 pm

Spot wrote:All of the Allied troops (in the movie) are most definitely "attacking", but they are attacking as part of a larger battle plan, and they are fully empowered to do things like (a) duck, (b) take cover when pinned down, and (c) heal the wounded, and (d) try and figure out creative ways of accomplishing their orders... or at least *more* creative than simply charging the enemy at a dead run.

On the other hand... Tom Hanks' character was a Captain, so technically a commander, and therefore his stack wasn't "unled".


When arrows were shot at the flash mob attack stack, they didn't go to ground (duck/take cover) until ordered to by Ansom. Scarlet engaged the arrows that entered her personal space, but generally they just floated around on their dwagons being hit by arrows. They can't heal the wounded, and when the main weapons are swords and spears, charging works pretty well. Or firing arrows.

Edit. So, warlords and casters aren't smart enough to do any of those.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:45 am

theseus2x wrote:And i don't see why bats couldn't hang around in GK hexes. Sure, a Thinkamancer might pick them up, but they can otherwise find some place to hide.

I keep thinking of Laserbeak in Transformers.... :roll:


Unled units have to engage. They cant just hide. Otherwise I would totally agree. As far as the tunnel scouts at the bfgw that's a tricky situation to suss out. Different city zones might be considered different hexes. They also might not be. How far away can a warlord be on the other side of the city from his hex and still be "leading" them? plenty of questions to ask about this. But since the tunnel scouts didn't attack and Parson has said unled stacks have to attack then we must consider those scouts to be led or their orders to have constituted an attack.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby suryasm » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:48 am

You have to remember that a city is considered a single hex for the defenders. So if by unled stacks Parson means no warlord in the same hex, then the scouts were being led by Parson. After all, a warlord provides some leadership to all units in the same hex, so presumably all units sharing a hex with a warlord can be considered "led". This bears further weight, considering Wanda was leading hundreds of undead in that dance-fight, and there is a sharp limit to how large you can reasonably make a stack.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:23 am

konmanrocks wrote:
I dunno, that seems kinda elaborate. Couldn't he just funnel shumkers to Jetstone instead, or alternately amass a bat/warlord swarm so large it blots out the sun and send it in?

it didnt work for the persians, so it wont work for TV. you do that, and your going to get 300 men in underwear that will slaughter you!


Bats can fly over a phalanx, under the shields [assuming round shields in any position or square held off the ground], between the legs, and through the gaps in columns or rows. A formation tight enough to hamper bat flight would have difficulty moving and would not be able to swing or stab effectively with normal weapons except perhaps accidentally injuring each other. When a bat flew into my apartment 2 years ago it was in a confined space with 2 young adult cats long enough for me to get annoyed by the sound of furniture getting knocked over. It was still flying with some damage to the tail webbing. Hitting a bat mid flight with a spear would be harder than catching a fly with chop sticks (a fly gets eaten within seconds if it lands in a room with our cats). If the spear head has an acoustic stealth design so that the bat could not see [hear with sonar] it coming then the hit rate might go up to the odds of hitting the bulls eye of a dart board while wearing a blind fold. They could have trolls manufacture specially designed anti-bat weapons, tennis rackets for example, but we have not seen anyone carrying them yet.

The combat mechanics of erf world make bats much more effective than on earth. Each bat gets all the bonuses from leaders, artifacts, casters, dancing etc. Large numbers of small creatures would deliver more damage in a small area because they can fit in a small area. The advantage that Sparta held over Persia was the ability to fight in a tighter formation. The Greek phalanx delivered more pressure per linear foot of skirmish line. If used correctly a division of bats would have all the advantages of shock troops. A swarm of bats could punch a hole in an enemy line.

A further advantage of bats is that they should work smoothly with most other types of stacks. Archers or double double archers could fire into the fray. Most of the arrows or bolts would miss the bats. An arrow that did hit a bat would not slow down very much and could still deliver damage. A pike block or phalanx could charge the enemy without blocking any bats or injuring them and vis versa. A dozen bats could also hang out on a friendly shield or on a breast plate. Any enemy that got mixed up with the formation would be subjected to attack by dozens of bats from multiple directions. That would be in addition to damage the enemy received from combat with the bat friendly infantry.

The pass at Thermoplai was held for three days by about 7,000 soldiers. Most of them where sent home after 2 days and then 300 Spartans with a little over 1000 other troops delayed the Persians for some of the third day. It might be worth pointing out that the Spartans died quickly when swarmed from multiple directions. The Spartans also wore breast plates in combat. The Persians and Persian allies had much lighter armor. The movie 300 showed the Spartans in tight boxers because the directors decided that mostly naked men thrusting a long shaft would be hawt stuff. The movie was not an attempt at recreating historical combat. I do not think synthetic fabric was available in 480 BC.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Goshen » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:32 am

The crazed poultry speaks truth!

Apart from their bravery (especially the Spartans) what really saved the Greeks was the rugged mountainous geography of the place. There was only a narrow strip of walkable land between the sea and mountains at that particular choke point.

Of equal importance: The Athenian fleet got the much larger Persian fleet to chase them and suckered them into rocky waters between the mainland and an island, just as a storm came. The Athenians took little damage being in open water, but the Persian ships were devastated.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:05 am

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:The combat mechanics of erf world make bats much more effective than on earth. Each bat gets all the bonuses from leaders, artifacts, casters, dancing etc. Large numbers of small creatures would deliver more damage in a small area because they can fit in a small area. {snip} If used correctly a division of bats would have all the advantages of shock troops. A swarm of bats could punch a hole in an enemy line.


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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Gez » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:26 am

Mikalyaran wrote:As far as the tunnel scouts at the bfgw that's a tricky situation to suss out. Different city zones might be considered different hexes. They also might not be. How far away can a warlord be on the other side of the city from his hex and still be "leading" them? plenty of questions to ask about this. But since the tunnel scouts didn't attack and Parson has said unled stacks have to attack then we must consider those scouts to be led or their orders to have constituted an attack.

Or "don't engage the enemy if it is possible to remain hidden" is a special Scout exception to the general rule.

After all, a scout unit would be kinda useless if it meant getting croaked before finishing their exploration round and coming back to report on what they've seen.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:30 am

Gez wrote:After all, a scout unit would be kinda useless if it meant getting croaked before finishing their exploration round and coming back to report on what they've seen.

I assume that the 'scouting' units are the ones with the special ability that you can see through their eyes, like Vinnie did through the doombats, so you can see what they just got eaten by. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Hobgobwin » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:04 pm

Rogthnor01 wrote:
I think the tri-caster link GK used had more umph than TV version.
The Tri-caster linkup that GK used was better because TV has to get close to an enemy with it's bats to gain info while the eyemancer allows them to do so without ever getting near the enemy. This eliminates the need for scouts as well as providing better info.


But the GK one required the use of 3 casters.
I wonder if the Jack part of the link was able to cast veils inside the city hex (not the table), or if Maggie could perform loyalty spells.
Seems like a waste if they couldn't.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby themysticalone » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:50 pm

For unrivaled intelligence on troop locations in real time? I don't think that's a big waste.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby theseus2x » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:03 pm

themysticalone wrote:For unrivaled intelligence on troop locations in real time? I don't think that's a big waste.


People keep bringing this up because the link prevented the use of their individual powers. (i.e. No Jack messing with people with illusions) Also, we don't know exactly what Misty could have done on her own. It could be the link was somewhat unnecessary to a leader with a bit more smarts and imagination than Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby KKdragonlord » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:28 pm

Predictamancy hat on:

We've seen Jillian kick GK's behind before, we know she is being lead by Charlie. Charlie has unparalleled information and Parson knows he is after GK but is underestimating his drive to end GKs march. Charlie profits from employment in all sorts of conflicts, GK is a direct threat to Charlie, especially since they will go after the Arkendish eventually.

GK's overconfidence will be its ruin on this battle, they won't lose but they will have their asses kicked, Jillian will croak Ansom definitively (as we will learn he can't turn on Wanda after all) and Jack will turn to Faq.

Charlie may very well attack GK when things get serious on Spacerock and only Parson tactical genius will be able to save the capital a second time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Rogthnor01 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:06 pm

But the GK one required the use of 3 casters.
I wonder if the Jack part of the link was able to cast veils inside the city hex (not the table), or if Maggie could perform loyalty spells.
Seems like a waste if they couldn't.
Maggie was required to create the link, serving like a sort of middle man. Jack and MIsty needed to be part of the same brain so that what misty saw could be shown to everyone else without having to waste time explaining all the moves that were happening to jack.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby theseus2x » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:38 pm

True - seems like most sides make due with old school board models, relaying information through a Thinkomancer.

Speculation : We have seen two Tri-Links : In both cases, a Think-o-mancer was neccessary.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Justyn » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:27 pm

theseus2x wrote:Speculation : We have seen two Tri-Links : In both cases, a Think-o-mancer was neccessary.


Well yeah, it's the Thinkamancer that was doing the link. Sizemore said as much. We've seen Maggie creating a link.

That's not speculation, it's been confirmed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Darkmantle » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:53 pm

The tricaster link also created the books, though I don't have the time to go find that link.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:15 pm

Darkmantle wrote:The tricaster link also created the books, though I don't have the time to go find that link.


Technically, Wanda said that the Eyemancers made the books. She might mean the link, but it doesn't exactly read that way. And it's plural, so Wanda might actually be talking about Eyemancers in the Magic Kingdom. I.e., Stanley may have paid a bunch of casters to make the books.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby jabbersocky » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:41 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:
Darkmantle wrote:The tricaster link also created the books, though I don't have the time to go find that link.


Technically, Wanda said that the Eyemancers made the books. She might mean the link, but it doesn't exactly read that way. And it's plural, so Wanda might actually be talking about Eyemancers in the Magic Kingdom. I.e., Stanley may have paid a bunch of casters to make the books.


But the linked casters operate the eyemancer table. So it stands to reason that they would create the eyebooks as well.

theseus2x wrote:
themysticalone wrote:For unrivaled intelligence on troop locations in real time? I don't think that's a big waste.


People keep bringing this up because the link prevented the use of their individual powers. (i.e. No Jack messing with people with illusions) Also, we don't know exactly what Misty could have done on her own. It could be the link was somewhat unnecessary to a leader with a bit more smarts and imagination than Stanley.


I think having that much intelligence would benefit any leader. Imagine Jetstone had one operating with Ansom getting updates via eyebook. It would have been almost impossible to trick him as he'd know exactly where all GK's troops were.
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