Book 2 - Text Updates 002

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Firkraag » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:29 am

oslecamo2 wrote:
Infidel wrote:I've personally played a lot of strategy games, and I've yet to play a single one with unlimited resources. Even in Civ resources eventually get mined out if not phased out due to tech. There may be some game out there somewhere with infinite resources, but that hardly qualifies as "most". Those few games you named are obviously among the ones that I've not bothered with. To say most games, to me that person has to have played ALL the games to make such a call, and I don't see myself playing a bunch of TBS games without ever seeing an unlimited resources game, as supporting such an argument.


I don't know what you've been playing, but aparently you've been missing a lot of great strategy titles.

Comand and Conquer ore mines replenish themselves(altough at a slow rate), and power plants work all the time.

Total anihilation and his younger brother, supreme comander, don't only have mines who'll provide you with metal for eternity at a constant rate, but also allow you to build metal generators, meaning you can always increase your resource increase as long as there's a free piece of land!

Masters of Magic cities and buildings never wear down their resource production, and you can even build more cities!

Ditto for advance wars and pals.

Masters of Magic in particular shares a LOT of similarities with Erfworld. Random heross/warlords, some of wich may be casters? Check. Stacks of units up to 8? Check. Crazy powerfull complex magic system divided in several schools? Check. Artifacts on heros? Check.Upkeep? Check. Units popped out of cities and not out of particular buildings? Check. Spending gold to instantly build stuff instead of waiting several turns? Check. Kill the enemy leader to win? Check.


Throw the Age of Wonders, Total War, and Battle for Middle-Earth series on the "unlimited resources" pile as well.

They outnumber the "finite resources" games, and by a good margin... The only one that comes to mind is the "Age of..." series but even there, resources were never really exhausted (once you factor in farms, trade, and the marketplace).
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby theseus2x » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:34 am

Roketter wrote:Also, on Janis.
Peace is already posible Erfworld. Theoritically, kingdoms can ally with each other for as long as they want, and if a suficiently large mass of kingdoms with touching borders allied, they wouldn't know war for as long as the alliance lasted, and they could get into stacks to visit their neighbours and be a happy family. Also... if all kingdoms allied, there could even be a world peace until someone broke the treaty.


Question : Why do sides make alliance, natural or otherwise?

Answer : Based on everything I've seen so far, sides make alliances to war on other sides. Jetstone, Unaroyal and the Sofa King might not have been constantly at war with each other prior to the RCC, but I imagine if they didn't have GK to unite them, they would be looking around at their neighbors, trying to figure out how to improve their side's lot, or at least to defend what they already had. We saw that as a result of the "War of the Arkentools" that smaller sides that may have been mere 'nuisances' in the past were causing all kinds of headaches for Jetstone and Transylvito. Were it not for GK, they might be looking to conquer those sides, or at least to try.

The purpose of Erfworld seems to be a continued war between factions. Now in a constant normal situation like that, inevitably a single side wins and conquers the world. Naturally, letting a single faction do that would lead to the end of the wars, so in the past, the Titans (or whomever) have made sure to create something resembling a level playing field.

In other words, no, there can not be a lasting peace under the current system.

Speculation 1 : There's a good chance that the Titans may eventually put the smack down on GK just to keep them from conquering the world.
Speculation 2 : Janis realizes that this sort of 'equality' leads to more war. So she's helping to throw it out of balance.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby enthar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:32 pm

How bad do you have to make things to turn a world predicated on constant, never ending, unwinnable war against the only thing they know?

Rape and pillage and slaughtering prisoners enmasse assuming you take them in the first place? Par for the course. Some tut-tutting, but no hue and cry. They are the bad guys after all, kind of expected of them really. Just need a bigger war!

Do we know if Parson has been to college? Working at Kinko's is not a dispositive, since there are scads of MA's (English, Art, Russian Literature) and MS's (Physics, Mathematics, etc) who flip burgers because the job market in their field pays worse or is so calcified that their are few opportunities. Or they find it dull and uninteresting and therefore don't muster the will to work someplace that uses their learning.

I ask because in our world, the way we make war so horrible no one wants to fight anymore (the mythical Last War that everyone claims the last war was, you know, just before the next one), you really need an engineer/scientist who is also an inventor type. Parson has the basic ingredients- learns well, questions his own assumptions, open to new ideas that sort of thing (sadly not all that common in the scientific community). But formal or informal training in the field would really help.

Most basic stuff from our history. Bronze is better the stone. Iron better than Bronze. Steel better than that. Since we learned that you /can/ do things the old fashioned physical way (without the magic of a building site), can you do things our way but with magic? Sizemore is perfect for this, since he is inquisitive and takes all things to be interesting. Can you heat metal up with magic? Can you hold it at one temperature (or one color of glowing hot) for a while, quench it to another, raise it back up again, quench it again? Just that leads to better steels and stronger weapons and armor. Nothing to write horror stories about, but then several ancient civilizations did pretty well with a combination of better materials, better organization, and roads.

Then you ask about chemistry. We have seen "redox" work, so a chemical engineer gets all kinds of shivers. Gunpowder is obvious, which leads to the lovely gun, namely the automatic (machine) gun which turned the First Last War into such a hell hole (trench). Chemical weapons /already/ work in comic, hence the dirtamancy trap, so just gotta up the ante a little on that. But, assuming they even knew about it, its just a dirtamancy trap. Scary, to be avoided, but dead is dead right?

Fission isn't practical. Even if you were a physicist AND chemist AND engineer, getting the right Uranium and/or Plutonium is a right pain and likely lethal. And its just bigger death, the volcano did that just fine. Nuking a city is hardly the horrific thing it is in our world, Lady Firebaugh and Lord Ansom are razing cities to the ground on a regular basis. The next side to come along will do the same thing, and then pop it back instantly, no muss no fuss no lingering radiation.

Biological weapons? Never seen anyone get sick, and they 'heal' at dawn, so it may be impossible.

Are any of these horrible enough? Maybe not...

Which leads to the breadcrumbs that I think have been scattered before us- magic is the key. All the game turners have been based on magic. The Decrypted are a new kind of magic. Parson already thinks that the 2 axis system of magic is probably just early pre-scientific crap (his Aristotle comment) because no one has the inclination or training or time to sit down and rigorously study it.

Spoiler: show
My thought? The ArkenAbacus. Takes mathemancy, and it lets you alter bits of whatever equation you can caluculate. Hinted at with the Luckamancer/Mathemancer linkup combination. If you can figure out a mathematical model of a fight, and then alter constants or bits of that equation to your liking, you are unto a Titan. Math is a just a way of describing the world in a way that is inarguably true, but knowing the world means you know what to do to control it. Parson has the bracer. With it and/or a Tool and some college learning in math, he would be utterly terrifying. Probability and statistics are fine and well and good, but to really kill people you want to use Calculus and a control theory. Certainly, thats what /I/ would want, should I be thrown into a gaming world.


Then again, I have book learnin' and it might just be me looking for a nail for my particular hammer. :)

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Infidel » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:59 pm

Firkraag wrote:
Throw the Age of Wonders, Total War, and Battle for Middle-Earth series on the "unlimited resources" pile as well.

They outnumber the "finite resources" games, and by a good margin... The only one that comes to mind is the "Age of..." series but even there, resources were never really exhausted (once you factor in farms, trade, and the marketplace).


The problem with many of these examples is they involve other types of resources. So far the only confirmed resources in Erf are Mercenary, Farming, and Mining. So erf economy should be compared to games with Mines that deplete, and farms are used for income. It doesn't matter all these other mechanics that exist in some games, especially tradeable goods, which do not apparently exist in erf currently.

I still believe that one of the ways Parson will break the world is making trade viable. Not as one shot deals between rulers exchanging resources, but as continuing arrangements with no upper limit.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby DevilDan » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:40 pm

At the end of the day, this goes to show that someone who is nice, wise, compassionate, and pacifistic can also be manipulative and even unhinged and supremely dangerous.

Just because Janis has a worthwhile goal, putatively, that doesn't mean that she'll always be right or will behave in as laudable a fashion.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:51 pm

Schmuckers can't be truly finite resource. While war can be used to siphon off schmuckers, the side it was stolen from would've used it as well. Aka, the total density of wealth would remain unchanged, if not lowered because of the schmucker cost in fueling the war engine. Marbits and other natural tribes only take wealth from sides in order to add to their numbers, not maintain.

I truly think that you very much can maintain a stable population without redistribution caused by war, it just wouldn't be as interesting.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:08 pm

enthar wrote:{ellipsis denote snips}

... Can you heat metal up with magic? Can you hold it at one temperature (or one color of glowing hot) for a while, quench it to another, raise it back up again, quench it again?...

...Gunpowder is obvious, which leads to the lovely gun, namely the automatic (machine) gun which turned the First Last War into such a hell hole (trench). Chemical weapons ...

... Nuking a city ...

... Biological weapons ...


I like the theory in your spoiler tag, and I know the nuke was thrown as a "won't be practical or desirable for Parson alone" thing.

BUT, no offense, the kind of thinking in most of that post is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to serious documentaries about molecule-sized tractors.

It's a different world, people!

For one thing, there is no entropy in Erfworld. Assuming the rest of physics works (huh?), you are capable of producing 100% efficiency engines, and -shocker- heatpumps of any ratio you care to name. You could have a simple gadget that could pump out all the heat off a desert into a city and just cost you the energy of a gentle whisper.

But with entropy chucked out, chances are everything else is back to square zero. It would be rather disappointing to see Erfworld do steam-engines, since Erfworld also has a cheap portalling technology, which in our Universe is only glimpsed in the acid trips of string theorists.

Sorry for the rant. Anyway, yes, maybe this once you were looking for nails for your hammer of knowledge :)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Roketter » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:24 pm

Infidel wrote:
Firkraag wrote:
Throw the Age of Wonders, Total War, and Battle for Middle-Earth series on the "unlimited resources" pile as well.

They outnumber the "finite resources" games, and by a good margin... The only one that comes to mind is the "Age of..." series but even there, resources were never really exhausted (once you factor in farms, trade, and the marketplace).


The problem with many of these examples is they involve other types of resources. So far the only confirmed resources in Erf are Mercenary, Farming, and Mining. So erf economy should be compared to games with Mines that deplete, and farms are used for income. It doesn't matter all these other mechanics that exist in some games, especially tradeable goods, which do not apparently exist in erf currently.

I still believe that one of the ways Parson will break the world is making trade viable. Not as one shot deals between rulers exchanging resources, but as continuing arrangements with no upper limit.




If Erfworld is a *real* world, as in, it has the scale of a whole planet, then mining all the resources without high-tech machinery or a legion of dirtamancers would take longer than the lives of it's inhabitants combined if they all died of old age.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Ytaker » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:47 pm

Infidel wrote:Err. No. Yes, it's a scientific question. Nowhere in the definition of science does it limit questions in the way you propose All your arguments against it are strawman arguments. Again, science is a method. It does not define the questions only the method. True false questions are still scientific questions and a scientific investigation is NOT required to discover the full story. Parson does not have to determine the maximum weight a dragon can carry.


You can play all the semantics games you want- but there is a huge difference between finding out the mechanics behind dwagon riding and finding out whether you can dwagon ride. One is far more likely to have big effects than the other. Such simple tests, which anyone could do will give him far less of an advantage than precise, accurate, mathematical tests, which is what any scientist you ever does. I'd probably put his dwagon ride into the interesting observation bit of science. If he was Newton, he could form equations based on it. He's not, so he doesn't.

Infidel wrote:Science takes place in stages. One scientist is not required to prove everything.


Now you're setting up a strawman. I never said that a scientist is required to prove everything. A scientist is required, however, to make results which others can reproduce, document their methods, use approved methods of analysis to draw a conclusion. They're required to collect a fair bit of data, to average out random errors.

Infidel wrote:If someone proposes that water lilies spontaneously turn into swans via the spontaneous generation. Then a scientist can study water lilies and prove that swans do not spontaneously generate into swans. The question of where swans come from then can be left for another scientist to answer. A scientist does NOT have to prove and observe the natural birthing process of swans to disprove water lilies turn into swans, anymore than Parson has to refine the exact pounds a dragon can carry to determine if a dragon can carry Parson.


What is this first scientist "Then a scientist can study water lilies and prove that swans do not spontaneously generate into swans." Water lilies into swans, I presume? This first scientist still has to collect data on a lot of water lilies, study them through their life, report their anatomy at various stages. He would have to observe the water lilies through their life, note any similarities and differences between them and swans at different stages.

Infidel wrote:You want scientific method? How about is there a way to curse in erfworld? That question was handled quite scientifically. Arguing that Parson didn't follow the scientific method in one instance does not prove that he doesn't use the scientific method at all. The truth is, I only have point out one instance he used the scientific method to prove that it is used. You have to argue against every action Parson ever did to prove your point. You can't just pick one given action.


He didn't. He tried to swear, thinking he could and was unable to. There were no hypothesis, experimentation, or anything. Scientific investigations of it might be saying fuc, vuck, shiz, shite. I don't remember him ever using the scientific method, so, you have to find that one action.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby enthar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:07 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
I like the theory in your spoiler tag, and I know the nuke was thrown as a "won't be practical or desirable for Parson alone" thing.

BUT, no offense, the kind of thinking in most of that post is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to serious documentaries about molecule-sized tractors.

It's a different world, people!

For one thing, there is no entropy in Erfworld. Assuming the rest of physics works (huh?), you are capable of producing 100% efficiency engines, and -shocker- heatpumps of any ratio you care to name. You could have a simple gadget that could pump out all the heat off a desert into a city and just cost you the energy of a gentle whisper.

But with entropy chucked out, chances are everything else is back to square zero. It would be rather disappointing to see Erfworld do steam-engines, since Erfworld also has a cheap portalling technology, which in our Universe is only glimpsed in the acid trips of string theorists.

Sorry for the rant. Anyway, yes, maybe this once you were looking for nails for your hammer of knowledge :)


Well, I am not sure that entropy doesn't exist in Erfworld. The first law of thermodynamics works just fine with magic, its just another added term (pick a side of the equation). I would argue that at the beginning of each turn the magic of Erfworld 'resets' everyone by adding 'energy' (magic) to the system. We can't derive the first law from any other equation, so altering the basic assumptions of the universe just changes the equations you have to use.

I imagine Erfworld as a string of pearls universe- each 'hex' is a separate universe, governed closely by the same laws, with certain transition points to other nearby universes. This helps answer why those arrows just stick on the hex boundry- they can not translate through the transition for whatever reason, but there is no violation of F=ma or conservation of energy, their energy simply contributes to whatever energy state is at the boundary, which is an infinite or nearly so sink AND source surrounding the hex.

This can be extended to explain why City hexes have special rules compared to say a desert hex. While most of the baseline rules are the same, these pocket universes have some modifications, no problem.

So, with case 1) Entropy doesn't exist, the energy balance can be maintained by the infinite source/sinks at the boundaries, Time (rate of change) can vary across hexes based on the observer (or lack there of), but you still can't get much out of a infinite heat pump without finding out what the rules are on translating that energy across the hex boundary.

Case 2) Entropy exists local to a hex, but again your energy is modified by the transition point to accommodate your new universe. There are certain global energy pools (based on your Side- either from the Capital hex or your Overlord) without which you either cease to exist or are frozen at a entropy point- in time, until another observer arrives to start things up again. But you still have access to chemical reactions (still gotta breathe, eat, sleep, and poop) and so much of what we know from our world is familiar and useful.

But you take a guy like Parson. Sizemore is describing the scientific method, a way of learning about the world that is pretty efficient but not necessarily obvious (look how long it took our world to figure it out). If I am in a string of pearls universe, the questions that I start to ask are- what /are/ the physics that govern this place? Make an experiment regarding your infinite heat pump, measure the entropy, and compare.

If you are a mathamancer, you spend some juice and derive the new equations. Maybe a lot of juice. Lather rinse and repeat, gaining greater and greater understanding of your world. Parson gets it for free with the bracer... if he can ask the right questions. Hence my curiosity at his education level.

Then comes the tricky part- going from theory to practice. I inserted a "then a miracle occurs" item for that. In our world, translation without acceleration is either impossible or energy prohibitive. In Erfworld, moving between hexes is a translation without acceleration, and the energy cost is one movement point. If you can manipulate your "hex" value to a new one using advanced mathemancy and a macguffin, you can effectively teleport- which we already know is possible to some degree using portals to the magic kingdom- and not use movement points. Scary stuff, and a tactical/strategic genius would cheerfully sacrifice a given limb for such an advantage. Maybe you could use it to move at Night, as Parson wanted to do so long ago, despite having zero movement points. The Tools' apprehension at our way of doing war (When do your units heal? When do you plan?) might presage the terror others might feel when introduced to real time combat.

The more I think about our weapons of war, the less I think they are going to be what is needed to 'break' war. All of them just represent killing more people more efficiently from a greater range. But hell, 90% of the people in Erfworld barely qualify as people, at least according to the dominate social structure in place. Who cares if you slaughter a few thousand/million bats anyway? Pop some more.

Thats all just speculation on how to break the world into peace. My main point was that its not the knowledge of our equations, necessarily, that gives power, but a way of thinking about your surroundings and then manipulating them. Training in math or the sciences (or logic even) helps mold a way of thinking that leads to such discoveries, ideally. Couple that with instant easy calculations (through mathemancy or the bracer, an Artifact that _I_ would sacrifice a limb for!) and you are really cooking. Add on the ability the ability to control the result, and gunpowder, NBC weapons, or whatever else becomes kind of a side show really. And killing people faster longer harder is a pretty low end use for such power, frankly. Control theory applies to any system where you can define the inputs and observe the outputs after all. Black boxing the brain is even being attempted. You start working your way up the magical food chain using those methods, who knows where you end up.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby atteSmythe » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:32 pm

I think the point is that Parson is willing to test and question what (many? most?) Erfworlders accept as true on faith. He's also willing to reassess his own prior arguments, which Sizemore seems to think is rare. Whether you call that Science or Skepticism or Testification is largely beside the point, IMO.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:56 pm

Empirimancy
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Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Rogthnor01 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:58 pm

Err. No. Yes, it's a scientific question. Nowhere in the definition of science does it limit questions in the way you propose All your arguments against it are strawman arguments. Again, science is a method. It does not define the questions only the method. True false questions are still scientific questions and a scientific investigation is NOT required to discover the full story. Parson does not have to determine the maximum weight a dragon can carry.



You can play all the semantics games you want- but there is a huge difference between finding out the mechanics behind dwagon riding and finding out whether you can dwagon ride. One is far more likely to have big effects than the other. Such simple tests, which anyone could do will give him far less of an advantage than precise, accurate, mathematical tests, which is what any scientist you ever does. I'd probably put his dwagon ride into the interesting observation bit of science. If he was Newton, he could form equations based on it. He's not, so he doesn't.
1) science doesn't need to have a large impact to be science, 2)no one ever said he was Newton, 3)Their may be no specific amount a dragon can carry only certain units.

On an unrelated note, anyone know how to put quotes in quotes?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Ytaker » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:27 pm

Rogthnor01 wrote:1) science doesn't need to have a large impact to be science, 2)no one ever said he was Newton, 3)Their may be no specific amount a dragon can carry only certain units.


But science does have a big impact because it is science. And we are in the context of saying, Parson's ideas will have revolutionary impacts. 2. Yeah, but everyone knows Newton and the story of his apple. 3. And finding out would be an interesting scientific experiment, and have major implications.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Rogthnor01 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:54 pm

Just by virtue of being science something doesn't have to have a large impact. Some knowledge, yes even the scientific kind is useless.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Watsit Hoohow » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:00 pm

Notably, Janis doesn't say things like "Parson will make it so that there are other things to do besides war." She says, "He may war so terribly that it breaks war itself." While it's not impossible that Parson DOES somehow introduce new mechanics into Erfworld (which seems unlikely, to be honest), Janis seems to think he's only going to accomplish whatever the actual result is through war.

Additionally, there's the question of what else Janis has predictamancy on (she says she has some on other things...) - maybe some of it regards Parson and the impact he'll have on Erfworld? It's also still debatable as to whether or not peace in Erfworld is actually something sustainable. War, for all its evils, still manages to keep Erfworld from being bored. While this update and a few others shed light on non-war things (art in Transylvito, recreational gardening, sextcetera) that people could busy themselves with, ultimately most Erfworlders are going to find themselves with too much time on their hands... War in this regard could be considered necessary, as Erfworld simply isn't designed to work in terms of peace - peace primarily working as a supplement to war.

So I think Janis isn't quite hoping for peace, but she's got some evil mastermind thing going on... either that or she's trying to build Parson to combat some ultimate evil that will later make itself apparent. Hey, that might actually tie in well with Charlie's also-mysterious motives.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:34 am

enthar wrote: {tl;dq, except end}
Thats all just speculation on how to break the world into peace. My main point was that its not the knowledge of our equations, necessarily, that gives power, but a way of thinking about your surroundings and then manipulating them. Training in math or the sciences (or logic even) helps mold a way of thinking that leads to such discoveries, ideally. Couple that with instant easy calculations (through mathemancy or the bracer, an Artifact that _I_ would sacrifice a limb for!) and you are really cooking. Add on the ability the ability to control the result, and gunpowder, NBC weapons, or whatever else becomes kind of a side show really. And killing people faster longer harder is a pretty low end use for such power, frankly. Control theory applies to any system where you can define the inputs and observe the outputs after all. Black boxing the brain is even being attempted. You start working your way up the magical food chain using those methods, who knows where you end up.
Enthar


Let's begin with the thermodynamics discussion, by a "yes we can". Noether's Theorem implies that conservation laws correspond to symmetries, and energy corresponds to a pretty basic symmetry- translation**. If you abolish conservation of energy then physical laws are (absolute) position-dependent*, a form which they don't have in our universe.

Second, the SECOND law of thermodynamics (the Entropy law) is explainable by the statistical model of gases. Should this model fail, then the assumptions that it is based on fail, which also has far-reaching consequences to our understanding of physics.

Third, translation with no acceleration is possible in our world, at least in theory, by Newton's "inertia" law. Anything not acted upon by an outside force will move in a straight line at constant velocity with regard to some inertial system of reference (that is, a system on which no outside forces act).

So, I'd expect Erfworld physics to be different. What this means is that physical or chemistry knowledge from our world is mostly useless; however, the methods that we used to gain that knowledge may well be applicable, and Parson, by all means, should do that.

In any case, I agree with the part of your post that I kept in the quote; my bone of contention with the original posting was the (apparent) expectation that following Empirimancy, Parson will reimplement Earth tech on Erfworld.


*: almost-quoting Feynmann, if you have a device that works at location A, will it still work at location B? Well, no, maybe you've moved it inside a wall or a pool of molasses or something. BUT, assuming you can pick a set of things that are relevant to the device's functioning, and you moved all of those along with the device to the new location, would it still work? (Important, you are not allowed to move the entire Universe- then "moving" something from A to B ceases to have meaning). Turns out that in our world, the answer to this question is yes, and the physical laws of our Universe do not recognize "special" positions. A place may be important because it is close to a gravity well, say, but not because of its coordinates themselves. Move the gravity well and a new place becomes "important".

**: CORRECTION: symmetry to time (it does not matter when an experiment is performed, as long as all relevant pieces are ready for the experiment) corresponds to conservation of energy. The gist of the argument in the rest of the post remains, however.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby Ytaker » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:54 am

Rogthnor01 wrote:Just by virtue of being science something doesn't have to have a large impact. Some knowledge, yes even the scientific kind is useless.


Really much not science, until you get to the very fine detail. Almost all advanced astronomy is useless now, but in the past it allowed ships to sail across the world. Particle physics is also getting rather useless now, although it may someday aid with computer science or predicting when a solar flare will hit us. Some advanced mathematics is useless, though it's hard to predict what will be incredibly useful and useless. No biology is ever useless, and only a small amount of chemistry is useless. Not much basic scientific knowledge is useless. And Parson is investigating useful things. I just doubt he's doing so in a scientific manner, which would generate a large impact.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby theseus2x » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:50 am

atteSmythe wrote:I think the point is that Parson is willing to test and question what (many? most?) Erfworlders accept as true on faith. He's also willing to reassess his own prior arguments, which Sizemore seems to think is rare. Whether you call that Science or Skepticism or Testification is largely beside the point, IMO.


Exactly. Its next to impossible to convince an Erfworlder that they are wrong about anything.

Look at Stanley and Ansom in the first book. Crazy-stubborn, right? Fair enough. Look at the scene where Parson and Sizemore argue over what to do before the Tool left. Sizemore is a nice guy, a smart guy and (frankly) a submissive guy. And Parson STILL had a difficult time convincing him that certain given truths weren't so. Look at Jillian, Webinar and the other warlords in the RCC1. Look how scared Charlie got when Parson upset the status quo. Hell, even Wanda and Maggie could be difficult. They simply picked their fights better. Vinnie and the Don were arguably the two most reasonable characters we saw, and even they had moments.

Parson's mind can change.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 002

Postby ErfNch » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:51 am

Ytaker wrote:
Rogthnor01 wrote:Just by virtue of being science something doesn't have to have a large impact. Some knowledge, yes even the scientific kind is useless.


Really much not science, until you get to the very fine detail.[...]No biology is ever useless[...]


Not sure knowing that two spiders are from a different subfamiliy (sylvestris or campestris) because the white dots on their back are 1 mm diameter rather than 2 is really useful ;) That's just descriptive and has relatively no impact, but it's still science.

Science hasn't always been about going into details, but more about questioning even the obvious. In the first days of human history things had to fall on the ground, volcanos were entrance to hell, sun was going around the earth then hiding underground. These were normal things and science was as "simple" as questionning them. Parson is just like the old "alchemists", making experiments to test the rules of reality. But erfworld is not earth and parson isn' doing chemistry / physics or biology, instead he's testing "game-like mechanics" that rules erfworld. And what he has already done with this knowledge had a large impact (apparently, Erfworlders never considered you could win with a "simple" engage/disengage tactic or you could achieve a spell that affects multiple hex).
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