Book 2 – Page 6

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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Carlan » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:19 pm

SandroTheMaster wrote:Stanley's initial ideals of warlords (just take the most handsome in the troops and promote him)


I didn't see that as Stanley being attracted to handsome men, I always saw it as Stanley believing that's how he was promoted by Saline.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby thaco4 » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:43 pm

First post. Does anyone else still think that Stanley was at one point smarter than he is now? If so then maybe you will follow my theory. Maybe this was the strategy that Stanley used to capture Jack and Wanda. Only reason that I say this is this strategy doesn't seem like Parson's style. If this was an original Stanley strat. then I wonder what happened to him. I don't really see this as a Jillian tactic, it's too sneaky, she likes plans were she just charges in head on. We see this in Book one page 68-70. She has Archon's and doesn't use this strat. to increase her chances of winning = almost gets croaked by Manpower. Would have if Ansom hadn't showed up. Anyway, looks to me like a Stanley strategy, he is sneaky.
Indeed
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Pointyleaf » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:50 pm

Sokrotes wrote: Besides girls would go, "eww a naked girl" and gay guys would probably go "eww naked girls." while straight guys or lez girls are like "oh wow!" and if ur bi, a combination of the both, lol.


I assure you, no bi girl would go "eww". They'd have a similar reaction to the guys.

But really, it only matters if there are girls in the target stack.. doesn't even matter what units are in the rest of the hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:54 pm

thaco4 wrote:Only reason that I say this is this strategy doesn't seem like Parson's style.

I disagree - this strategy has Parson written all over it.
I'm assuming that Shockomancy works like a typical stun, in that it prevents the victim from responding until they're attacked, or a set time expires.
This means that the entire stack is helpless, one element is singled out, and the attackers withdraw - just like Parson's attacks on the siege units.
Parson is the only one who has demonstrated the knowledge of hit-and-run for maximum effect.
This is just another variation on that basic tactic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Vreejack » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:34 pm

Sokrotes wrote:I have to completely agree with MarbitChow, i dunno if this is or isnt a actual spell or natural spell but im getting a bit annoyed when people assume every single thing is magic based. If ur not a caster and very few other units u probably cant cast spells. There are types of cobra that can squirt venom from there fangs using holes at the tip that point outward, in erfworld that could be a natural ability, or how Bats can "see" useing sonar. Erfworld is set in a almost medieval time period, and in our own history during that time people believed in magic and superstition. Now im not saying there is NO magic in erfworld, i just think not as much as people make it out to be. Now take this for example, Jack is a magician, and i suspect hes going to make Ansom appear to be something else, much like Bogroll looking like Parson. But of course Ossamar and Tremenis are watching Ansom like a hawk, Jack needs a way to make them look away. Bam put a couple of hot chicks up flashing people right in front of jack and Ansom. Its like a magician making u look at one hand as the other pulls the rabbit out from under the table. Its a simple case of misdirection that takes no magic, just illusion like magicians use in real life. Besides girls would go, "eww a naked girl" and gay guys would probably go "eww naked girls." while straight guys or lez girls are like "oh wow!" and if ur bi, a combination of the both, lol.


I think you're totally off on this. Everything is, in fact, magic-based in this world, at least everything that has a direct effect on combat. Let's take something simple like a sword, for instance. Why does a sword kill people? Because it gives an attack bonus to the infantryman wielding it. It doesn't matter how sharp the sword is or how well-balanced it is---look at the ridiculous weapon Jillian uses---but what its combat bonus is. The moment a unit with fabrication makes a sword, that action, invoking fabrication, assigns a combat value to the new weapon. Combat values do not come from the physics involved but from the rules of the magic involved. Perhaps Parson could make a sword himself by grinding down a piece of stock metal, but if he bypasses Erfworld's regular mechanism for assigning bonuses to weapons then he will not be able to use it as a sword and it would merely have the same combat bonus of the original metal piece, no matter how sharp or well-balanced he makes it. There are no metallurgical shops on Erf where they experiment with various alloys and methods of quenching to produce better weaponry. They can only go "poof" here's your sword, just as they go "poof" here's your salami, stupid meal, or pigeon...er, walnut pie.

Whenever one of these mechanics is used---making a salami, distracting the stack---Erfworld uses graphics to help bring the activity to life, but the graphics, whether it be a tidy but apparently unused butcher shop or a row of archons flashing their privates, is ultimately irrelevant to the mechanic. The only things that are important here is that Gobwin Knob has a Butcher Shop and that Ansom has five archons with shockamancy. If Parson had been playing this as a table top game it would have operated exactly the same without all the visual fuss. I think Rob has gone out of his way to demonstrate this.

As another example----this time specifically for World of Warcraft players---it is possible to play with no graphics at all, with just unit frames on the screen. Sometimes things get so complex that the graphics are just distracting, but the real mechanics are how your actions are affecting the unit buttons on your screen that represent all the other units present. And it does not matter what types of actions you are committing, whether it be attacking with your sword or calling forth an electrical storm, or mounting your horse, all actions ultimately involve a call to the same function, usually written "cast".

You might be a metallurgist in real life, but unless your character knows the recipe for a copper axe (learned instantly from a trainer) you are not going to be able to make one in the game even if you really do make one because you have bypassed calling the
Code: Select all
cast(create("Copper Axe"))
function and so your "Copper Axe" will not provide a damage bonus the way the regular one will. Now if you were somehow pulled into one of these games as Parson was then the process might imbue you with the necessary powers to match or approximate what you had IRL, but since Erfworld weapons (and those of most fantasy games) defy logic and physics it is hard to see what advantage understanding logic and physics is going to get you.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:38 pm

thaco4 wrote:First post. Does anyone else still think that Stanley was at one point smarter than he is now? If so then maybe you will follow my theory. Maybe this was the strategy that Stanley used to capture Jack and Wanda. Only reason that I say this is this strategy doesn't seem like Parson's style. If this was an original Stanley strat. then I wonder what happened to him. I don't really see this as a Jillian tactic, it's too sneaky, she likes plans were she just charges in head on. We see this in Book one page 68-70. She has Archon's and doesn't use this strat. to increase her chances of winning = almost gets croaked by Manpower. Would have if Ansom hadn't showed up. Anyway, looks to me like a Stanley strategy, he is sneaky.

Stanely didn't need to use such tactics... FAQ was poorly defended and the dwagons just simply over powered them... after doing so, it was simple for Stanely to just pick and choose what units he wanted to capture. And we know that Wanda went willingly... granted though, it does bring to question what happened to the predictamancer, as i see little reason for Stanely not to capture him aswell... it is possible that he was sent ot the magic kingdom as other mancers; as for Jack, it's possible he was veiling one of the other cities at the time and thus nowhere near a portal; either that or he attempted to help his side with his veils and ws captured in the process

Anyway, this kind of hit and run tactic was never seen before Parson showed up. Unlike others, Parson was able to think outside the box to exploit the rules. The idea of "winning by loosing"... the tactic has some risks, but it's a pretty solid plan; afterall if he was able to use similar tactics (minus the fool/shockamacy) to wipe out those seige engines with minimal losses, then you could likely pull of the capture with nothing more then some damage, but no real losses... granted though, one might question the timing... namely that Parson did not intend that tactic to be used on a stack with a high level chief warlord (which would increase the risks)... i suspect that this capture strategy is something Parson came up with during his tactics meetings with Jack

Besides... it's one thing to say Staenly used to be smart... but to say he was once smarter than Ansom who is considered one of the best tacticans in erfworld is another thing... that's a BIG leap right there
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Ytaker » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:12 pm

Vreejack wrote:You might be a metallurgist in real life, but unless your character knows the recipe for a copper axe (learned instantly from a trainer) you are not going to be able to make one in the game even if you really do make one because you have bypassed calling the
Code: Select all
cast(create("Copper Axe"))
function and so your "Copper Axe" will not provide a damage bonus the way the regular one will. Now if you were somehow pulled into one of these games as Parson was then the process might imbue you with the necessary powers to match or approximate what you had IRL, but since Erfworld weapons (and those of most fantasy games) defy logic and physics it is hard to see what advantage understanding logic and physics is going to get you.


That doesn't mean that creating a copper axe will consume juice. Or that to a caster who could detect magic, it would give off a scent. If you had the skill to create an axe in the real world, it might well give you the skill to create one in this world. Presumably there would be a building (blacksmith) and if you added (raw metal) and (fuel: wood) and then lit it, and stepped on the (blacksmith mechanisms:bellows) and had the special (blacksmith) from your world (aka you spent years learning to understand the temperature and composition of metals, and made weapons), you could forge a weapon with a combat bonus. While someone else, doing the same thing but without the skill would have a 1/5000 chance of getting it right. Just as Parson's physical strength applies to this world, along with his ok leadership skills.

Whether or not it's magical in essence, it may or not be magical in the rules. For instance, magic may be cast from
Code: Select all
cast(create("spell")
while fabrication may be cast from
Code: Select all
summon(create("item")
and thus not be vulnerable to antimagic effects. Flashing, likewise, while people's minds may respond to it due to natural thinkamancy in their brains, would also not use the cast code, and would work even with someone interfering with magic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm

This is why I love this board: Rob makes a 'Flash Mob' nudity visual pun, and it leads to a discussion of the fundamental nature of reality in Erfworld - which, since we cannot actually run experiments, ultimately allows all sides to create their own unprovable hypotheses and argue until the next update. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Ytaker » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:24 pm

MarbitChow wrote:This is why I love this board: Rob makes a 'Flash Mob' nudity visual pun, and it leads to a discussion of the fundamental nature of reality in Erfworld - which, since we cannot actually run experiments, ultimately allows all sides to create their own unprovable hypotheses and argue until the next update. :D


We can make predictions, using our hypotheses. If they are proven right or wrong in later strips, we know a bit more about the world. It'll be a lot more strips till we learn the answer to this question, probably.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Darkmantle » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:37 pm

Pointyleaf wrote:
Sokrotes wrote: Besides girls would go, "eww a naked girl" and gay guys would probably go "eww naked girls." while straight guys or lez girls are like "oh wow!" and if ur bi, a combination of the both, lol.


I assure you, no bi girl would go "eww". They'd have a similar reaction to the guys.

But really, it only matters if there are girls in the target stack.. doesn't even matter what units are in the rest of the hex.


From all my dealings with women, if you show a straight woman a bunch of boops, they are more likely to look closely to see if there is anything to commment on, or criticise.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Ytaker » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:47 pm

I asked a straight girl. She said she'd check their breasts for deformities, and compare their shape, size, and "boob things" to her own. I don't have any homosexual guys on my msn to ask what they'd do.

Edit. "With girls we compare everything about each other and boobs are just another thing."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Justyn » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:02 pm

Vreejack wrote:
Sokrotes wrote:I have to completely agree with MarbitChow, i dunno if this is or isnt a actual spell or natural spell but im getting a bit annoyed when people assume every single thing is magic based. If ur not a caster and very few other units u probably cant cast spells. There are types of cobra that can squirt venom from there fangs using holes at the tip that point outward, in erfworld that could be a natural ability, or how Bats can "see" useing sonar. Erfworld is set in a almost medieval time period, and in our own history during that time people believed in magic and superstition. Now im not saying there is NO magic in erfworld, i just think not as much as people make it out to be. Now take this for example, Jack is a magician, and i suspect hes going to make Ansom appear to be something else, much like Bogroll looking like Parson. But of course Ossamar and Tremenis are watching Ansom like a hawk, Jack needs a way to make them look away. Bam put a couple of hot chicks up flashing people right in front of jack and Ansom. Its like a magician making u look at one hand as the other pulls the rabbit out from under the table. Its a simple case of misdirection that takes no magic, just illusion like magicians use in real life. Besides girls would go, "eww a naked girl" and gay guys would probably go "eww naked girls." while straight guys or lez girls are like "oh wow!" and if ur bi, a combination of the both, lol.


I think you're totally off on this. Everything is, in fact, magic-based in this world, at least everything that has a direct effect on combat. Let's take something simple like a sword, for instance. Why does a sword kill people? Because it gives an attack bonus to the infantryman wielding it. It doesn't matter how sharp the sword is or how well-balanced it is---look at the ridiculous weapon Jillian uses---but what its combat bonus is. The moment a unit with fabrication makes a sword, that action, invoking fabrication, assigns a combat value to the new weapon. Combat values do not come from the physics involved but from the rules of the magic involved. Perhaps Parson could make a sword himself by grinding down a piece of stock metal, but if he bypasses Erfworld's regular mechanism for assigning bonuses to weapons then he will not be able to use it as a sword and it would merely have the same combat bonus of the original metal piece, no matter how sharp or well-balanced he makes it. There are no metallurgical shops on Erf where they experiment with various alloys and methods of quenching to produce better weaponry. They can only go "poof" here's your sword, just as they go "poof" here's your salami, stupid meal, or pigeon...er, walnut pie.

Whenever one of these mechanics is used---making a salami, distracting the stack---Erfworld uses graphics to help bring the activity to life, but the graphics, whether it be a tidy but apparently unused butcher shop or a row of archons flashing their privates, is ultimately irrelevant to the mechanic. The only things that are important here is that Gobwin Knob has a Butcher Shop and that Ansom has five archons with shockamancy. If Parson had been playing this as a table top game it would have operated exactly the same without all the visual fuss. I think Rob has gone out of his way to demonstrate this.

As another example----this time specifically for World of Warcraft players---it is possible to play with no graphics at all, with just unit frames on the screen. Sometimes things get so complex that the graphics are just distracting, but the real mechanics are how your actions are affecting the unit buttons on your screen that represent all the other units present. And it does not matter what types of actions you are committing, whether it be attacking with your sword or calling forth an electrical storm, or mounting your horse, all actions ultimately involve a call to the same function, usually written "cast".

You might be a metallurgist in real life, but unless your character knows the recipe for a copper axe (learned instantly from a trainer) you are not going to be able to make one in the game even if you really do make one because you have bypassed calling the
Code: Select all
cast(create("Copper Axe"))
function and so your "Copper Axe" will not provide a damage bonus the way the regular one will. Now if you were somehow pulled into one of these games as Parson was then the process might imbue you with the necessary powers to match or approximate what you had IRL, but since Erfworld weapons (and those of most fantasy games) defy logic and physics it is hard to see what advantage understanding logic and physics is going to get you.


No you're the one who is off here: Rob has said quite clearly that Erfworld is a "game-like universe" but not a game itself, to paraphrase Rob's "Erfworld is not a game" audio file in the Toolbox. The "game system" of Erfworld, if any codified system really exists at all, it is more akin the the shadows on the cave walls rather than the cave walls themselves (to again borrow from Rob).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby raphfrk » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:15 pm

Vreejack wrote:Perhaps Parson could make a sword himself by grinding down a piece of stock metal, but if he bypasses Erfworld's regular mechanism for assigning bonuses to weapons then he will not be able to use it as a sword and it would merely have the same combat bonus of the original metal piece, no matter how sharp or well-balanced he makes it.


In one of the Summer updates, Parson asked what happens if a unit throws a rock. The answer was that even if they are a standard unit, they can still throw rocks with a chance to hit. They don't need the archery ability to use projectile attacks. However, their base attack would be pretty low.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby BoopingCynic » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:21 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Vreejack wrote:Perhaps Parson could make a sword himself by grinding down a piece of stock metal, but if he bypasses Erfworld's regular mechanism for assigning bonuses to weapons then he will not be able to use it as a sword and it would merely have the same combat bonus of the original metal piece, no matter how sharp or well-balanced he makes it.


In one of the Summer updates, Parson asked what happens if a unit throws a rock. The answer was that even if they are a standard unit, they can still throw rocks with a chance to hit. They don't need the archery ability to use projectile attacks. However, their base attack would be pretty low.


No it was Chance to hit, like asking the average person to hit a bulls-eye without training, but a sword, now that might work but only if carved from something metallic of inherently dangerous for an attack bonus or else he might as well make a stone staff.
But we are doing some guesswork here so maybe it is like DnD you can use improvised weapons but at which point it goes from improvised to sword I dunno.

I wonder if Sizemore can make Gem Golems :|.
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His fall was not a small one\
We did but build his pedestal\
A narrow and a tall one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby atteSmythe » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:36 am

BoopingCynic wrote:I wonder if Sizemore can make Gem Golems :|.

Only if he tries to polypile too many of them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:50 am

Ytaker wrote:I asked a straight girl. She said she'd check their breasts for deformities, and compare their shape, size, and "boob things" to her own. I don't have any homosexual guys on my msn to ask what they'd do.

Edit. "With girls we compare everything about each other and boobs are just another thing."


I know girls who'd respond the same.

Although in this context at least she'd need good eyes, as we can see the archons, small statured to say the least, are some distance away from the people they are flashing - which to my mind also adds to the implication magic is involved.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby multilis » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:12 am

theseus2x wrote:...Still... as cool as the strategy may sound, it still seems sketchy. You're going to risk Wanda, Jack, Ansom, a bunch of Dwagons and a few Archons for a plan that might work?

Every choice here may be risk. Scouting may not spot the enemies surprise hiding in their capitals dungeon, etc, and attacking without knowing that suprise may be fatal to everyone.

We aren't in a good position to judge which risk is greater, or what is possible, eg could a king keep a secret from his chief warlord in case that warlord got decrypted?

***

If they had time, then not asking Parson to run calcs and advise on Wanda's plan does seem foolish. (But possible Wanda has limitations due to fearing Stanley screwing things up, which he still may do)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Sokrotes » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:06 am

I understand that characters in Erfworld keep referring to mancy all the time, but theres a couple of things that make me think that its much like how people in ancient times assumed magic simply cause they couldnt understand it. Take for instance Parsons bracelet, everyone in erfworld says it mathamancy, but we know its just a plain watch calculator, and isnt magical to parson. ALso i feel when it comes to Dollmancy it feels like magic to Erfworlders since everything else pops. If clothes and weapons and houses just suddenly appear, a person who knows how to create a basket, or forge a sword himself seems like there magical. Yes there are many things that are in fact magical, but i dont think everything actually is magical, just is seen that way by Erfworlders, hence why Parson can change things, he sees things from a new perceptive. But then again this could just be me hoping, i like to think of magic is just a tool, like a hammer, u cant build a house without a hammer but its far from the only thing u use.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby crazyguy_co » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:30 am

Sokrotes wrote:I understand that characters in Erfworld keep referring to mancy all the time, but theres a couple of things that make me think that its much like how people in ancient times assumed magic simply cause they couldnt understand it. Take for instance Parsons bracelet, everyone in erfworld says it mathamancy, but we know its just a plain watch calculator, and isnt magical to parson. ALso i feel when it comes to Dollmancy it feels like magic to Erfworlders since everything else pops. If clothes and weapons and houses just suddenly appear, a person who knows how to create a basket, or forge a sword himself seems like there magical. Yes there are many things that are in fact magical, but i dont think everything actually is magical, just is seen that way by Erfworlders, hence why Parson can change things, he sees things from a new perceptive. But then again this could just be me hoping, i like to think of magic is just a tool, like a hammer, u cant build a house without a hammer but its far from the only thing u use.



Err your wrong about the watch. It IS magic when combined with his bracelet. We're not talking about running calcs on just things he can actually know, we are talking about running advanced calcs where there is no possible way he could know all the variables to type in. Things like "Tell me the odds that learning what happened to my Archons right now will be worth giving up those calculations in the future" There is no possible way Parson can know the variables going into that to make that calculation.

Also, reread the creation of the picnic basket, it sounds a little magical just based on the description.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Ytaker » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:32 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I know girls who'd respond the same.

Although in this context at least she'd need good eyes, as we can see the archons, small statured to say the least, are some distance away from the people they are flashing - which to my mind also adds to the implication magic is involved.


Small stature but large proportioned, if you know what I mean. The distance means people would have to really stare to get a good look, adding to the effect. Even from several hundred feet away, you can see the breasts quite easily, maybe make out nipples. The fact that they're not doing anything magical suggests to me that it's not magical. And there is no magical school called flashamancy.
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