Summer Updates - 049

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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:31 pm

HailGreen28 wrote:I like a story where at the beginning a character acts kinda odd. Then when you find out WHY the character act so, it suddenly makes sense.

If Charlie suborned the Gobwins as another poster said, to get the Arkenhammer, then had his Archons go collect the artifact.....

If Stanley suddenly had to deal with his ruler suddenly being croaked, and then a bunch of Archons coming up to him "We'll take the hammer now, wait, why aren't you disbanded?"

Stanley's hatred of Charlie would be completely justified. Especially if he admired Saline as a father figure. I imagine Saline wouldn't appoint an heir with low Loyalty.

I smile at the ownage of Archons that would ensue if that's what happened.


Well, the problem with this is it doesn't quite explain why Stanley left with the casters as well.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Gez » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:40 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:Well, the problem with this is it doesn't quite explain why Stanley left with the casters as well.

We'd have to know what that mysterious mission was. Just getting away while the gobwins did their deed? Or something legit? Who had the idea of this mission: Saline, Stanley, Wanda? As long as we don't know, there's nothing else but our gut feeling about Stanley's character to tell whether he was part of the plot or not. Personally, I have trouble seeing Stanley as a conniving, scheming backstabber. Sure, he is ambitious, and he has this whole "the Titans have a plan for me" delusion of grandeur going on. But I don't see him as subtle enough to fool a royal unit like Saline IV. Well, we don't know anything about Sal, but presumably he wasn't a complete moron. Sizemore said Saline appreciated his sense of humor, for example, that would tend to imply a minimal finesse of mind.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Fiendishrabbit » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:53 pm

Heh. Western giants.

I'm willing to bet that if Eastern Giants appear they'll be heavily armored fighters that either fight by tackling their opponents or by throwing prolate spheroid rocks.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:34 pm

name lips wrote:It must have been totally devastating to find out he was a pawn of Stanley.

She probably hasn't really dealt with it yet. Her mind is full of Faq and nothing else has room to move.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby HailGreen28 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:38 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:
HailGreen28 wrote:I like a story where at the beginning a character acts kinda odd. Then when you find out WHY the character act so, it suddenly makes sense.

If Charlie suborned the Gobwins as another poster said, to get the Arkenhammer, then had his Archons go collect the artifact.....

If Stanley suddenly had to deal with his ruler suddenly being croaked, and then a bunch of Archons coming up to him "We'll take the hammer now, wait, why aren't you disbanded?"

Stanley's hatred of Charlie would be completely justified. Especially if he admired Saline as a father figure. I imagine Saline wouldn't appoint an heir with low Loyalty.

I smile at the ownage of Archons that would ensue if that's what happened.


Well, the problem with this is it doesn't quite explain why Stanley left with the casters as well.
Hmmm. According to Sizemore, Stanley took the casters on a "special mission". Sizemore DID NOT say what that special mission was.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby raphfrk » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:46 pm

HailGreen28 wrote:Hmmm. According to Sizemore, Stanley took the casters on a "special mission". Sizemore DID NOT say what that special mission was.


It could even have been a special mission initiated by Saline.

However, the issue is what would he have needed all 4 casters for.

Misty and Maggie seem inherently better when staying back at the capital.

Maybe the "hex of interest" was out of range of their abilities and Stanley transported them to one of GK's cities that were in range.

The mission could have then required Wanda and Jack as part of the strike team. Maybe, a sneak attack to croak and then uncroak a specific unit.

Misty would watch to see if the mission was successful and Maggie could send the mission accomplished message back to Saline.

That doesn't include Sizemore, maybe he was there to give bonuses to some golems.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Updog » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:51 pm

Maybe Stanley was attempting to form a 4 caster link up? I think that would count as special, just a guess though
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Gez » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:56 pm

Updog wrote:Maybe Stanley was attempting to form a 4 caster link up? I think that would count as special, just a guess though

Sizemore said it's not even possible, and Maggie would object. And anyway, GK had five casters at the time: Wanda, Sizemore, Jack, Maggie and Misty. Even if a four-caster linkup was possible, you wouldn't need to bring five caster for that.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby raphfrk » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:02 pm

Gez wrote:Sizemore said it's not even possible, and Maggie would object. And anyway, GK had five casters at the time: Wanda, Sizemore, Jack, Maggie and Misty. Even if a four-caster linkup was possible, you wouldn't need to bring five caster for that.


Also, there would be no need to leave the city to cast it .... well, unless it was expected to kill everything in a 5 hex radius.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby ShieldOfAthena » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:56 pm

That off-hand reference to "Vanna not really knowing how to play right" in a dungeon is a further indication that upper ranks can really do whatever they want with subordinates, even if they are say casters contracted out of the MK. Subordinates in Erf are literal "subs" to higher ranked "doms." This applies even if say Jillian had asked Vanna to "dom" her. "So I should beat you like this? You're sure?" etc., isn't the same to someone who really wants to be beaten as someone who just takes charge of the experience for you.

I wonder how common S&M is in Erf.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Zak3056 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:06 pm

raphfrk wrote:
HailGreen28 wrote:Hmmm. According to Sizemore, Stanley took the casters on a "special mission". Sizemore DID NOT say what that special mission was.

...
The mission could have then required Wanda and Jack as part of the strike team. Maybe, a sneak attack to croak and then uncroak a specific unit.


I've seen this pop up in threads more than once over the last couple of days, and I'm mystified that no one is correcting it: Wanda and Jack were units from FAQ, so why does everyone keep talking about what GK was doing with them before Saline was croaked?
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:09 pm

Zak3056 wrote:
raphfrk wrote:
HailGreen28 wrote:Hmmm. According to Sizemore, Stanley took the casters on a "special mission". Sizemore DID NOT say what that special mission was.

...
The mission could have then required Wanda and Jack as part of the strike team. Maybe, a sneak attack to croak and then uncroak a specific unit.


I've seen this pop up in threads more than once over the last couple of days, and I'm mystified that no one is correcting it: Wanda and Jack were units from FAQ, so why does everyone keep talking about what GK was doing with them before Saline was croaked?


Because, as the end of book one states, they were captured and made part of the GK team BEFORE Saline croaked.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Zak3056 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:21 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:Because, as the end of book one states, they were captured and made part of the GK team BEFORE Saline croaked.

I must've missed that, because I don't remember any mention of Saline at the end of book 1. Also, I guess I just kinda assumed that the "special mission" Saline sent Stanley on was the razing of FAQ.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby raphfrk » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:42 pm

Zak3056 wrote:I must've missed that, because I don't remember any mention of Saline at the end of book 1. Also, I guess I just kinda assumed that the "special mission" Saline sent Stanley on was the razing of FAQ.


Hmm, the page where Wanda tells of the fall of Faq doesn't technically place it before Saline was killed. I am pretty sure this was settled somewhere :).
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Zak3056 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:16 pm

raphfrk wrote:Hmm, the page where Wanda tells of the fall of Faq doesn't technically place it before Saline was killed. I am pretty sure this was settled somewhere :).

Yeah, I read that page looking for your reference, and I agree that when Wanda hatched her plan, Saline was still alive (since she heard of a "warlord" (i.e. not an Overlord) who found the Arkenhamer.) I don't, however, get the impression from anything that there was a long period (if any) between the fall of FAQ, and the croaking of Saline.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Mask » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:56 am

I wholehartedly support the theory that the FAQ invasion is the "Special Mission". It makes sense in the timeline, and attacking a secret kingdom only the Chief Warlord knows about strikes me as pretty special.

Besides, it's more interesting if Stanley in fact didn't rule because of comminting regicide. And so far we haven't really seen anyone Stanley has admired, which is wierd. He ought to be a fan of someone, right?

Also, I always found it wierd that he'd but down the Gobwin rebellion. If he was behind it, the only reason to do so would be to save face, and given what we know of free will in Erfworld, wouldn't this pretty much just be a show for the other Sides? And killing his own infantry to potentially fool other sides into thinking he's a pretty nice guy doesn't really strike me as very Stanley-ish.

I'll put forth a bloated theory: The Special Mission really was the invasion of FAQ and Charlie really was behind the Gobwin rebellion. However, causing the rebellion was a mercenary act on the behest of the ruler of FAQ somewhere between them learning of the inbound army(if Wanda wanted stanley to fail it would have made sense for her to make sure they found out in time) and the fall. If FAQ saw the incoming huge army, Charlie would really be the only reasonable ally, and killing said army by croaking the King of the side would be just Charlie's type of solution, I think, and doing it for money would be just his type of motivation. Besides, imagine the fortunes he could make on the ensuing brawl over Saline's now-empty cities?
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby TiMothra » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:12 pm

This update has seen a lot of conjecture regarding Charlie's abilities to meddle with both sides of a conflict, even to the point of divorcing a side from its natural allies. In this case with the Western Giants (can't wait for them to square off against the Eastern Giants, unless the easterns shoot themself in the leg or something), it took the form of re-negotiating a contract. Now, Jillian won't let Vinny on that it was Charlie's idea, but my interpretation is that she herself negotiated the terms. Hence her confidence in her diplomatic abilities, whereas if Charlie set everything up and she just pulled the trigger she wouldn't get the same sense of satisfaction (though it's not implausible that Charlie also worked on the giants to make it seem that she had done the legwork herself for the motivation boost). What I'm saying is, I don't think that there's any dish-based ability to sever a natural ally from its side, any more than a new better offer can work on anyone. Natural sides are, as inferred above and through the baseball metaphor, free-agents. If a side meets the tribe's criteria for alliance, go nuts. Faq probably meets the giants' standards (no proscribed other allies, mountainous).

Which brings up the Saline regicide / FAQ Attaq conspiracy that's been picking up steam. The notion that the gobwin uprising occured while Stanley et al were off attacking FAQ is pretty good, and the only evidence I can find against is in the panel where Sizemore recalls the operation, the dragons are flying over mushroom shaped smurf houses (Mushroom Kingdom?), rather than anything similar to the oriental style of FAQ pre-fall. What isn't addressed is why he'd need Sizemore and the other casters. I can't imagine Stanley willingly taking Sizemore on a battle mission, given his opinion of the dirtamancer. Not when Stanley (with hammer and full chief warlord glory) and a squad of dwagons so ably handled it in one turn. Further, I'm not convinced that Maggie, at least, was even in GK at that point, since she would have been present for FAQ falling, and Jack turning, and probably would have learned his name. She probably has a good enough memory for it.

But getting to my original point before all this rambling, is addressing my personal speculation regarding Charlie and the Faq/GK imbroglio. FACT - Charlie will play both sides of a conflict against one another for maximum benefit. We've heard a lot of speculation about Charlie turning the gobwins against GK to take out Saline (though the art shows a silhouette of a hobgobwin with a sword to Saline's throat). I don't say I disagree. But after taking back GK, Stanley has gobwins for natural allies again, and unless it's the source of their friction, I don't think Charlie was needed to arbitrate negotiations.

No what I want to raise awareness of is the fact that FAQ, pre-fall, stinks to high heaven of a pie that Charlie would have his finger in. FAQ either through the philosophy and training of Banhammer or whatever fatemancy caster-pop mechanic, produces talented casters (profitable consultants). FAQ earned money mostly through mercenary actions, Charlie's chief source of income. FAQ had one important and valuable piece of information associated with it, and only Charlie IMO could have been in a position to possess it; the faqt that Faq exists.

Now, Charlie doesn't strike me as a blackmailer, though charging to not tell a militaristic neighbor country (GK) about a nearby, poorly defended country would have its benefits. He would certainly play the situation to his advantage for at least a little while (before orchestrating the events which would lead to its destruction, say, offering thinkagrams between wanda and stanley for a nominal fee). My speculation lies by what I see as one of the largest un-addressed issues thus far; Faq's predictamancer (Cassandra, Debbie, not named yet). She was credited with a number of fortunes, all pertinent to the story: 1.which city to veil against detection, 2, Banhammer's death/Faq's fall, 3. Wanda receiving an Arkentool.

1. Prediction magic of this type could be replaced by effective surveillance of nearby players. So, a net of scouts could provide information regarding neighbor movements to allow for necessary plans.
2. Anyone actively and confidently planning something can predict it's eventual occurrence. Say, announcing the upheaval of a kingdom you've been working towards, and are just putting the last strokes in place.
3. Suggestions are powerful things, properly applied to the open minded. The only difference between a prophecy and an aspiration, is where it came from. I find it revealing that very little of wanda getting the pliers seems fate-ish. She worked awfully hard, used Stanley, manipulated him with the express purpose of getting a tool, though it seems that her final prize was due more to her work than acts of fate (the only one being a wild-card summoned warlord to actually come up with a plan that would croak the pliers holder, since nobody else could manage).

These are all within Charlie's power, especially if he just needs to be in contact with the predictamancer in an undetected way (Charlie can penetrate 'secure' eyebook networks). That we don't have any information regarding the predictamancer's fate following FAQ's fall makes it all the more tantalizing to speculate (and she looked cute enough to be an Archon in a funny hat in the panel with Wanda recounting the prediction). Keeping Jillian away on mission (and alive) at the time of the fall is child's play at that point; just don't compete with the Faq mercenaries for a job when the boop is going to go down. Since Charlie could have been involved in her popping in the first place (prediction 2) it's perfectly reasonable that he has plans for her.

The question just comes down to why did Charlie do all that if he did? My best guess was setting Stanley up as a regicidal criminal would get Ansom and the pliers in striking range of getting them to Wanda (his idea in the first place). Dissolving Faq would remove competition, and free up caster resources. Keeping Jillian alive... well that's tricky. All I can come up with is that Faq and GK both generally share a neighbor; Transylvito. A side which (pre-hammer) was probably more powerful than GK, but also flirting with the notion of making royalty an obsolete notion. By making assistance at FAQ pass prohibitively expensive (250k/turn), Charlie forced TV's chief warlord and heir into dangerous combat, the loss of whom could seriously inconvenience GK, necessitating coming up with a new heir. Or popping one...

It may not be Charlie's primary agenda, but I believe he has marked Transylvito as a problem, and is taking action to see it gone and a return to the friendly, regimented, profitable wars of old between polite royals. The great western conflict might be just the penultimate steps to removing TV, with FAQ and GK just the pawns and game pieces. Parson included.

/Speculation off
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:18 pm

TiMothra wrote:Natural sides are, as inferred above and through the baseball metaphor, free-agents. If a side meets the tribe's criteria for alliance, go nuts. Faq probably meets the giants' standards (no proscribed other allies, mountainous).


I wonder if Saline did something dumb that caused the uprising.

For example, the "special mission" might have required shmuckers causing a temporary cash flow problem.

The notion that the gobwin uprising occured while Stanley et al were off attacking FAQ is pretty good, and the only evidence I can find against is in the panel where Sizemore recalls the operation, the dragons are flying over mushroom shaped smurf houses (Mushroom Kingdom?), rather than anything similar to the oriental style of FAQ pre-fall.


Maybe that was it.

I thought this was a settled question ... so does anyone remember the reference that settled it?
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Danetrix » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:02 pm

I think a 3.5 caster link is possile, the 3 casterlink using the .5, which is a being an artefact/Iten, say, like Parson's bracer?
Example? Moneymancer, Luckamancer, Thinkamancer, and Mathamancer artefact.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Infidel » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:51 am

Why would you assume a mind-link was possible with a mindless item? How can you quantify mindless as .5 of a mind? I can understand speculating that a mind link was possible with a sentient tool, but as far, there has been no verification that any of the tools are sentient.
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