Duke Forecastle, Part 1

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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Jinren » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:14 am

Dystopianman wrote:an infantryman can be retrained into a helicopter pilot.


Stanley was an infantryman. Now he can fly!

Lipkin wrote:Parson loses weight, and he attributes it to climbing stairs. That's a change to his Signamancy that doesn't really line up with how other Signamancy works in Erf, as far as we've seen.


Doesn't it? Slately and Don King both gained weight thanks to an inactive lifestyle.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:18 am

arbo wrote:
Free Radical wrote:I wonder if that's how Anchorbar managed to sink Seaworld's fleet so completely?


Aawww man, I want a Cosmic Horror story in Erfworld :(

What are the odds for a feral Kraken?


The main story is about how a faction has summoned a warlord from some other dimension, that warlord has been alive longer than the most ancient side we know of in Erfworld (Jetstone) he had personally led in his world more battles than the next 10 more experienced warlords combined, and that is only in erfworld's style of combat which he considered a toy system and it was something he did for fun.

He has knowledge of his own dimension’s infinitely more potent "serious" style of combat and is ready to use it whenever possible giving him a bag of tricks no other strategist can match, and is quickly learning even the smallest details of erf's system which he seeks to combine with his own dimensions.

He is a special warlord, which we still don't know what it means at the very least it means he is both a warlord and caster something impossible until he was brought in and in his world he dabbled in the sciences which means he has unique insights into all of the magic disciplines available.

He has words of contempt so powerful that erfworld itself won't let him utter them, not that he isn't making progress on that, he probably knows more about rocking out than Stanley, he has very powerful no juice required signamancy i.e knowing the puns in unit's name etc.

I could go on,but more damning is that like in all the tragedies etc Parson could have been defeated back when he was first summoned but for example Charlie chose to work with him due to his greed (for smuckers for artefacts) and now it's too late.

Speculation about the seaferer special:

Looking at for example how royalty/nobility functions i.e royal sides pop nobles in their cities, pop in a greater city gain a greater title, with royals popping only in the capital and how the heir special functions i.e you can pop heir warlords as manny as you want but they take more turns to pop, this is my theory on how captains/admirals pop:

If you control a coastal city, which is a unique city type, when you pop a warlord you have the option of devoting more turns and poping a captain i.e the seaferer special is guaranteed.

Admirals are probably those captains poped in the capital.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:41 am

Admiral is likely some maritime chief warlord equivalent.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:26 am

GWvsJohn wrote:Admiral is likely some maritime chief warlord equivalent.


I expected that multiple admirals could be active at the same time due to the fact that they have a institution named the Admiralty, the navies of RL I believe also have that institution and they do have more than one admiral at the same time.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:53 am

Prodigial_Knight wrote:Speculation about the seaferer special:
Looking at for example how royalty/nobility functions i.e royal sides pop nobles in their cities, pop in a greater city gain a greater title, with royals popping only in the capital and how the heir special functions i.e you can pop heir warlords as manny as you want but they take more turns to pop, this is my theory on how captains/admirals pop:
If you control a coastal city, which is a unique city type, when you pop a warlord you have the option of devoting more turns and poping a captain i.e the seaferer special is guaranteed.
Admirals are probably those captains poped in the capital.
I think it's probably more likely that it's a side trait, much like the Warlords of Transylvito. Because it is referred to as a "Maritime Side" so I think that's a significant label. So this could mean two possible mechanics IMO:
  • It's actually a "racial" trait, so Seaworld Men are actually a special Tribe of Men (like how Saline and Stanley are of the Plaid Tribe) who usually pop with that special. Exactly the same way that Vampires seem to be a special Race/Tribe that almost always have the Flight special.
  • Perhaps by owning a Coastal Capital, your Warlords pop with the Seafaring special almost all the time.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby fehler » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:00 am

If you need to find out what happened, hire a findamancer.

British navel battles! Ok, all I remember is the Spanish Armada (damn Yankee-centric education). And this doesn't look to be setting up for that, since the strong side is on the wrong side. Unless this story is going that direction, and our Forecastle ends up setting the gambit with a well-placed Storm Trap.

And I don't think everything is all quiet on the eastern front.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Keldaria » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:38 am

Interesting, It had not occurred to me but makes sense that anything not organic doesn't simply heal at dawn. I wonder if actual work/money/time is required to heal these vessels or if they simply need to be in a friendly port for a turn to make repairs.

Also interestingly enough I wonder where this is going, Most of these stories have always centered around the idea of a natural born unit of erfworld breaking with common traditions to find show how effective thinking outside the box can be. Case in point, Digdoug's usefulness at improving the defenses of low level cities to the point that they aren't worth taking, or Crush's ability to learn from the errors of history. Here we have a unit that has no "Seafaring" speacial (whatever benefit that gives) being commissioned as first mate aboard their sides flagship...

Who wants to bet on how long the Captain/Admiral lasts before dying and leaving command of an armada in Forecastles hands. I suppose its possible another high ranking "Captian" could be positioned among the ships with some form of seniority, but tradition usually holds the first officer of the flagship as the superior i believe.. Possible intraside conflicts to be had there. Or I could be entirely wrong and he finds himself captured by the enemy and we see a struggle from within to prevent turning.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Snowbody » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:00 am

Wait a minute. The description of Seaworld (making 3 identical ships with identical names exactly 90 turns apart from each other) indicates that they're stuck in tradition, the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results). I'm not sure where Duke Forecastle fits on the scale of tradition / iconoclasm. He's just not characterized enough in this update.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby khamul » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:20 pm

If I was designing a game system and way to gain a special by training, I'd build it into the level-up process.

We know you can level just through training - this text update from book two states that Artemis levelled from 6 to 7 by training alone, though it's clearly difficult.

Maybe there's a chance to get a special on level-up that increases in proportion to the amount of XP gained while training that activity?
So spend 100 turns throwing rocks at a target, and maybe even if they all miss, you still get the chance to get the archery special on level. Sail a boat (without sinking, crashing, falling overboard or drowning) and maybe there's a chance to get seafarer.
Training the flying special might be more tricky. Especially as even a small fall can potentially result in incapacitation.

I'd also weight it so that training with a skill requiring a special you don't have would generate very little XP. Making it a choice between faster advancement or the chance of more capability - and meaning that the easiest time to acquire a new special would be at very low levels. This would explain why a low-level Wanda was training with a staff: although it's possible that melee combat is a skill every unit gets, even if they have very low scores by default.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby bladestorm » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:20 pm

Being that this is a game world, it may be faster and cheaper to just disband the infantry unit and pop a helicopter pilot unit. Something like 3 turns to pop a new helicopter unit vs 75 turns to retrain an infantry unit who typically only survives 25 turns.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby khamul » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:30 pm

Heh, if they're just sitting around guarding the walls of a city anyway, why not try it?
Maybe there's another unconventional strategy there.

But if there is a mechanism that works like this, it probably makes more sense as something you'd try with low-level warlords with otherwise promising stats.
Not sure 'helicopter pilot' is the best choice, but getting some extra warlords with the archery special seems like it could be pretty valuable.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:11 pm

khamul wrote:Heh, if they're just sitting around guarding the walls of a city anyway, why not try it?
Maybe there's another unconventional strategy there.

I think the reason most of us have suggested about why not to try it is that training something that is already your specialty will make you better at what you're most likely to do faster. Infantry are most likely to guard walls or fight in a field. Improving their sword-work quickly would be better for that than improving your archery slowly, especially when you can pretty easily just pop archers.

As for why Warlords don't do so...maybe they do, but maybe they have a similar issue. Maybe they're better off training specials they already have or leadership or sword-work. Maybe one more arrow in a battle, even from a Warlord's skills, isn't that important to most sides. And, by the same measure, Erf seems to have a "pop the kind you need" attitude towards Warlords. If the side has a lot of archers, they may be more likely to pop a Warlord with the Archery special to lead them. If the side has a lot of ships, the side may be more likely to pop a Warlord with Seafaring. So, if a side really wanted to change their strategy to one with more ranged units, it seems likely that simply having that attitude and acting on it might be an easier way of getting a Warlord with the Archery special than trying to train someone with no natural aptitude.

(I actually really like the idea that a side's natural signamancy affects the specials that pop on their warlords.)
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Lamech » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:04 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:
Speculation about the seaferer special:

Looking at for example how royalty/nobility functions i.e royal sides pop nobles in their cities, pop in a greater city gain a greater title, with royals popping only in the capital and how the heir special functions i.e you can pop heir warlords as manny as you want but they take more turns to pop, this is my theory on how captains/admirals pop:

If you control a coastal city, which is a unique city type, when you pop a warlord you have the option of devoting more turns and poping a captain i.e the seaferer special is guaranteed.

Admirals are probably those captains poped in the capital.

I tend to think that the seafarer special is not something they get to chose. The side wouldn't pop a landlubber of a warlord. That's a joke to them. I think its like the flying special one of Jills warlords had. Its just that Forecastle instead got a crit fail, instead of a crit success on his abilities.

Kornaki wrote:It wouldn't shock me if it was even fairly easy for units to retrain specialties, it just isn't often done because units aren't seen as people with thoughts and ambitions like they are in Stupid World.

It strikes me as something that is a poor idea in general. Especially if the special is going from sword to spear. A potential reasons;
1) Its a waste of training. You could train a swordsman to use a spear, but why? Instead just pop a spearman, and train them to use a spear really well. Or you could train the swordsman in swording well and just use that. This pretty much has to be an issue to some degree.
2) It might be a bad use of other resources. It could increase upkeep, and then you have two specials that can't be used at the same time. Worse, to actually switch in combat you'll need for them to have two weapons. Its just a bad idea.
3) Differing talent levels and have other stats suited to different roles. A spear user might be much more naturally suited to spear use. Sure, you might be able to teach him the sword, but it would take a big amount of training to get a swordsman with too little defense and hits.
What I think would be more useful is training that synergizes with existing talents.
1) Train them to be better at what they do. Obvious, but we saw this with the knights.
2) Abilities that you just don't have naturally but really want. Train someone to fabricate if you have no fabricators.
3) Abilities that synergize with existing ones. If you have a spearman, you might want to train him in shields and the special "hedgehog formation!".
4) It makes good use of other resources. If for example, training doesn't increase a units upkeep then it might make sense to train units in abilities that would otherwise be more expensive. I.E. if archers have twice the upkeep of spearmen, train the spearmen in archery and save a bit of cash.
5) Abilities that can't be used together. If you teach spearmen archery, they can fight fliers and ground pounders effectively.
6) Excess training time. You have nothing better to do with your trainer. If all you have is a boxing teacher, you might as well send your spearmen to learn from the boxing teacher. (Assuming no other costs.)
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:34 pm

Lamech wrote:I tend to think that the seafarer special is not something they get to chose. The side wouldn't pop a landlubber of a warlord. That's a joke to them. I think its like the flying special one of Jills warlords had. Its just that Forecastle instead got a crit fail, instead of a crit success on his abilities.

I'm inclined to partially agree with you. I tend to think that Erfworld gives the side that pops a Warlord the kind of Warlord they need rather than what they want. With that in mind, I'd say Forecastle was less a "crit fail" and more a recognition of the reality that Seaworld does have a land-locked city that could provide land-bound access to the side.

Without suggesting that the type of Warlord that pops is natural Signamancy for natural Predictamancy, I do think that rulers would be wise to pay attention to the abilities of their Warlords and use them appropriately rather than throw them into a position that reflects what they wish they'd gotten.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:54 pm

It seems like it is a little bit of both ways as far as Specials go.

There seems to be themed sides with Specials:

Transylvito - vampire theme, most warlords have flying
Seaworld - naval empire theme, most warlords have seafaring

There may be themes that don't result in a Special.

And warlords occasionally pop with random Specials:

Artemis has archery
Jillian's former lover had flying, though FAQ doesn't seem to get hardly any warlords with flying so it seems that FAQ doesn't have whatever thing Transylvito has that gives most of their warlords that Special.
Prince Creen had flying
All sides get casters randomly, and the casting ability shows up as a Special.

There may be one or more things which affect what random Specials a side gets. Or it could just be completely random and Erfworlders are praying to a random number generator when they wish for certain units and taking it as justification for their actions when they get coincidental positive results and as some sort of personal failing to properly worship the RNG when they don't. :D I've seen players do that in a prior game I ran. :D
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:29 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:The main story is about how a faction has summoned a warlord from some other dimension, that warlord has been alive longer than the most ancient side we know of in Erfworld (Jetstone) he had personally led in his world more battles than the next 10 more experienced warlords combined, and that is only in erfworld's style of combat which he considered a toy system and it was something he did for fun.

Just a quick nitpick. Jetstone's minimum age is 80000 (turns) * 1(year) / 365 (days)=219 years. I'm reasonably certain that Parson's age cannot yet be measured in the centuries. And several of the Great Minds are also older than Parson is likely to be.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Omnimancer » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:16 pm

What I'm curious about is how ships affect move. If you're riding a ship as a passenger, whose move gets used up when you cross a hex boundary? Does the ship have its own move stat? Is it using up the crew's move? Maybe the seafaring special is what allows a unit to apply their own personal move to the entire ship.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:22 pm

Omnimancer wrote:What I'm curious about is how ships affect move. If you're riding a ship as a passenger, whose move gets used up when you cross a hex boundary? Does the ship have its own move stat? Is it using up the crew's move? Maybe the seafaring special is what allows a unit to apply their own personal move to the entire ship.

My guess, at this point, is that ships work like mounts except that the ships require a crew to manage them like siege engines do. But, that's just a guess.

As for how move works with multiple sides on the ship, it may be that only allied units can peacefully ride on the ship, in which case it is both the ship's turn and the passenger's turn at the same time, so there is no issue. If an enemy is boarding the ship and it crosses the hex border, it may slide the enemy off the ship as he/she can't cross the border. If the enemy is below deck and not a prisoner, it may prevent the ship from moving, since control may be disputed.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Nueamin » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:09 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
Prodigial_Knight wrote:The main story is about how a faction has summoned a warlord from some other dimension, that warlord has been alive longer than the most ancient side we know of in Erfworld (Jetstone) he had personally led in his world more battles than the next 10 more experienced warlords combined, and that is only in erfworld's style of combat which he considered a toy system and it was something he did for fun.

Just a quick nitpick. Jetstone's minimum age is 80000 (turns) * 1(year) / 365 (days)=219 years. I'm reasonably certain that Parson's age cannot yet be measured in the centuries. And several of the Great Minds are also older than Parson is likely to be.


This is all true. Many Erfworlders have experienced more time than Parson and so may be older than him. However how many "Erfworld days" or turns might a single game last that might be played in a game session. Yes it's not the same thing, but he MAY have played through many simulated Erfworld days and had more experience in simulated battles than the oldest Erfworldians simply because the Erfworldians HAVE to live through their turns where in Stupidworld turns do not last days for gamers. Now anyone in Erfworld COULD do something similar but from what we have seen Parson is the only one to "play" simulations inside Erfworld. Parson MAY even have simulated more turns with Jack than the oldest native Erfworlder has lived. Since no one else that we know have has played through simulations Parson has an ability to gain experience in ways the normal Erfworlder could never do as they would need to live through what he can simulate.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:44 pm

Nueamin wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
Prodigial_Knight wrote:The main story is about how a faction has summoned a warlord from some other dimension, that warlord has been alive longer than the most ancient side we know of in Erfworld (Jetstone) he had personally led in his world more battles than the next 10 more experienced warlords combined, and that is only in erfworld's style of combat which he considered a toy system and it was something he did for fun.

Just a quick nitpick. Jetstone's minimum age is 80000 (turns) * 1(year) / 365 (days)=219 years. I'm reasonably certain that Parson's age cannot yet be measured in the centuries. And several of the Great Minds are also older than Parson is likely to be.


This is all true. Many Erfworlders have experienced more time than Parson and so may be older than him. However how many "Erfworld days" or turns might a single game last that might be played in a game session. Yes it's not the same thing, but he MAY have played through many simulated Erfworld days and had more experience in simulated battles than the oldest Erfworldians simply because the Erfworldians HAVE to live through their turns where in Stupidworld turns do not last days for gamers. Now anyone in Erfworld COULD do something similar but from what we have seen Parson is the only one to "play" simulations inside Erfworld. Parson MAY even have simulated more turns with Jack than the oldest native Erfworlder has lived. Since no one else that we know have has played through simulations Parson has an ability to gain experience in ways the normal Erfworlder could never do as they would need to live through what he can simulate.

Um, OK. I have no idea what this has to do with what I said.
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