Digdoug - Episode 22

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lipkin » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:13 pm

Stanley did not even know his name. No way he was keeping tabs on him. There was nothing preventing Sizemore from going to the Magic Kingdom and turning barbarian. The only reason Sizemore was happy before Parson's arrival was because he had his head in the sand.

Parson didn't ruin his life, he opened Sizemore's eyes to the unpleasant reality. And Sizemore blames him for it. The Magic Kingdom was already classist, far from the utopia Sizemore makes it out to be. Sizemore's only legitimate complaint is that his reputation is ruined.

I can ignore half of what he said, because half of what he said was false. The Magic Kingdom was already pretty broken. Anyone couldn't go there, because it's a casters only place. It's not free of conflict, because enforcement councils meet out vigilante justice for anyone who goes against the grain. And the war freaking started in the Magic Kingdom, with the Thinkamancers.

I have a hard time sympathizing with Sizemore, when he just wants to pretend problems aren't there.

Again, he has no problem making golems. It's only when he's ordered to fight that he takes issue. "Just following orders" doesn't cut it when he has a place to flee to at his fingertips.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby arbo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:50 pm

Denar wrote:"can't stop yourself from doing your duty? can't stop me from doing my duty? guess that's grounds enough to hate you now, you horrible monster"


You're right, Sizemore was being kind of a dick there on Parson. :(

Then again, being a matter of life or death for everyone, I always took he was more angry at the injustice of the world in general instead of Parson specifically, at that time. So much so, they got to be buddies afterwards in the Summer updates.

Now with Parson breaking the MK, Sizemore is pissed off at him again; but this time, even with Parson following Duty there were different choices he could have made, or so Sizemore thinks.

But now that's just my evidence-less interpretation :roll:
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby arbo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:05 pm

Lipkin wrote:There was nothing preventing Sizemore from going to the Magic Kingdom and turning barbarian.


I would accept this argument if there was... let me see... evidence in the comic ;) that this is an actual mechanic in the game rules of Erfworld. I mean, if you disagree or are unhappy with your side, Loyalty takes a step back and lets you flee and go barbarian at will.

Instead, Loyalty and Duty are portrayed in the comic as Big Things in the world's mechanics. (Eager here to know more about the "flexibility" Maggie hinted about, but for now...) Up to this point, I can only remember Ossomer as an example of a character Turning of his own volition, and even then he was going through an epic Heroic BSOD. Unhappiness alone wouldn't cut it.

And that's for Turning. Willingly going barbarian is something the comic never depicted, I think.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lipkin » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:31 pm

arbo wrote:
Lipkin wrote:There was nothing preventing Sizemore from going to the Magic Kingdom and turning barbarian.


I would accept this argument if there was... let me see... evidence in the comic ;) that this is an actual mechanic in the game rules of Erfworld. I mean, if you disagree or are unhappy with your side, Loyalty takes a step back and lets you flee and go barbarian at will.

Instead, Loyalty and Duty are portrayed in the comic as Big Things in the world's mechanics. (Eager here to know more about the "flexibility" Maggie hinted about, but for now...) Up to this point, I can only remember Ossomer as an example of a character Turning of his own volition, and even then he was going through an epic Heroic BSOD. Unhappiness alone wouldn't cut it.

And that's for Turning. Willingly going barbarian is something the comic never depicted, I think.

We've never seen it, but we know it can happen.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-30.jpg
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:53 pm

arbo wrote:Instead, Loyalty and Duty are portrayed in the comic as Big Things in the world's mechanics.
Loyalty and Duty are Thinkamancy and Thinkamancy can't make a person do something that he strongly disagrees with, at last judging from what Maggie said in B1P148. Based on that it seems that Thinkamancy guides people's thinking rather than controlling people. Maybe leaving Gobwin Knob would make Sizemore happy and Loyalty is preventing him from realizing it, but Loyalty probably isn't capable of putting up an actual barrier to prevent Sizemore from leaving if he ever decided that he wanted to leave. It only does subtle stuff, so I doubt anyone who is under its influence is clearly aware of its effect. Thinkamancy guided Parson to try uncroaking the volcano, but even afterward he couldn't tell how much of that was him and how much of that was Thinkamancy.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby 0beron » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:12 pm

Hey Arbo? How about you actually go and read the comic and stop wasting our time? Then we wouldn't have to cherry-pick out tidbits from the piles of selfish angst that is Sizemore. If you want easy specific examples, the Book 2 epilogues are full to the brim with those. But even more meaningful are the things we cannot quote to you in easy bite-sized chunks. It's the character development, a well documented change. Sizemore is happy and complacent to let war and misery rage, and only gets worried when the war comes to his doorstep. Hundreds of units die daily to keep him alive, and it only becomes a problem once he's the one who has to do the killing. He's a spoiled little child who just got told he has to go to school instead of play on the playground all day.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby spriteless » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:59 pm

Lilwik wrote:
arbo wrote:Instead, Loyalty and Duty are portrayed in the comic as Big Things in the world's mechanics.
Loyalty and Duty are Thinkamancy and Thinkamancy can't make a person do something that he strongly disagrees with, at last judging from what Maggie said in B1P148.
Nope. That's what culture and propaganda are for! : )

Given that the MK uses Rands, it is likely that they look down on those who are down on their luck. I mean, in an Anne Randian sort of way. There is no shame in not giving, it is not considered necessary to justify yourself as a worthy person. Likewise there is no shame in surviving your side (except for predictamancers) even though other types of units will fight to their last.

To units with sides, however, Loyalty is considered the ultimate morality. At least, that is what the Titans' scripture says, and what the Rulers that can disband those units with a thought say.

So, there are truly two conflicting moral structures on Erf, not even bringing in the sort of human empathy and love that grants morality without external structures, or our Stupidworld assumptions. Sizemore acting like a MK unit, which he became because he had no GK friends or prospects, is immoral by the standards of most units. Sizemore acting with the human empathy and love that grants morality without external structures, which is only easy to express with the Hippiemancers, makes him distracted from his duty (and therefore selfish).

But.

And, Litwik, I realize you probably disagree, because you see morality as actions and pretty absolute, not varying paths for people with varying strengths, towards similar destination. (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't mean to preach) BUT.

Being selfish, in Sizemore's case, is being self actualized. Sizemore NEEDS freewill to grow, and expand his empathy to Erf itself, like some kind of Gaia Principle... Ehh, that's kind of silly, but it is Sizemore. He's always seemed too down to earth to manage feel it when someone preaches at him, so any growth must come from his self, which has been stocked with more empathy than duty. Digdoug sees every raindrop as having a Titanic mandate, and could fight enthusiastically. Sizemore makes crap golems to pass crappy times, and sees the terror in enemies' eyes. Words do little to ease the onslaught of empathy of that.

Sizemore thinks with his emotions, and is building to his own action, slowly but surely; Duty and the propaganda propping it up make him tolerate more than he might otherwise. He still must muddle through the cognitive dissonance before he can manage it.

And... it's not helpful to dismiss people as bad. All people have good and bad potential.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lamech » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:05 pm

multilis wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I kind of wish Sizemore and Jack had talked about Old Faq. Seems like Sizemore's dream place.

Sizemore may end up changing allegiance like Ossomer did, and possible Digdoug will take his place. Ideals are both a strength and a weakness.... someone like Charlie may find way to exploit. Not that hard to create impression of a side like Old Faq and send propaganda to someone in magic kingdom.... carnymancers seem to make a living out of "rope a dope", a third party could be "hustled" to do the job.

The third party pacifist kingdom gains a dirtomancer, Charlie by arranging things weakens his biggest opponent and he likely makes a profit doing so.
SIzemore should join with the Hippiemancers to work for a better Erfworld. Building, planting, signamancy and date-o-mancy. Those seem like some pretty damn important building blocks for a better tomorrow.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby arbo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:44 pm

0beron wrote:Hey Arbo? How about you actually go and read the comic and stop wasting our time? Then we wouldn't have to cherry-pick out tidbits from the piles of selfish angst that is Sizemore.


Don't be a dick.

Everyone here is having a good time trading examples and counter-examples for both sides of the argument. Apart from you, I don't see anyone complaining. If you're not having fun, by all means add me to your Foe list.

0beron wrote:If you want easy specific examples, the Book 2 epilogues are full to the brim with those. But even more meaningful are the things we cannot quote to you in easy bite-sized chunks. It's the character development, a well documented change.


If it's so well-documented that you can't find easy bite-sized chunks to quote as examples of character development as you see it, I have to assume you're pulling your conclusions out of thin air. I see the character development in Sizemore as well, but I'm trying to stick to actual sources in the comic instead of speculation, and my conclusions differ vastly from yours (and others here, who are perfectly fine with arguing in a civil fashion).

0beron wrote:Sizemore is happy and complacent to let war and misery rage, and only gets worried when the war comes to his doorstep. Hundreds of units die daily to keep him alive, and it only becomes a problem once he's the one who has to do the killing. He's a spoiled little child who just got told he has to go to school instead of play on the playground all day.


I'm really sorry to bother you but there's never been a single page in the comic where Sizemore speaks his mind about any of that. You literally don't know if he ever was happy and complacent. For all Book 1 depicts, he's just a simple dude struggling with a miserable life in Gobwin Knob, with no hint of entitlement at all. We never get to know if he feels good or bad about the units that die to keep him, and all of his Side, alive. But we do get scenes where he comes out as a reluctant warrior, one who feels bad about people having to die, even enemies who are actively trying to kill him. (Webinar and Dora.) Indeed, the story hammers the point that being ordered to kill with his own hands is what triggers his character development and all the angst. But that's because he's a pacifist at heart, and the comic goes a certain length to depict that in his interactions with Janis. It's hard for me to see his changes as a result of being a spoiled child, when his everyday life had him go through all kinds of crap.

Feel free to ignore me completely if you think I'm wasting your time, but I would love it if you're still open to discussion.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Beeskee » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:00 am

Lipkin wrote:I don't buy it. Nothing is stopping Don from just removing Caesar as heir by this thought.


Not to nitpick but Don kinda is stopped from simply disbanding Caesar.

B2T16: A Ruler does not simply disband his top warlord in a time of crisis, or ever. And if a Ruler did disband a popular warlord, it could affect the Duty and Loyalty of all other units on the side.

So, he *could* disband Caesar, and risk "trouble at home" that would make his current problems look mild.

Tho that had nothing to do with your actual point. ;) I'm just mentioning that Don is kinda stuck with Caesar. Even if he sent him out in the woods to disband him, Caesar might ignore that disbanding order, rationalizing not disbanding under the "for the good of the side" clause. Sending him into dangerous battles is the best Don can do, and even then Caesar may be clever and/or strong enough to survive. S2009-047

GWvsJohn wrote:It's not that Sizemore isn't a good person, it's that he's only concerned with himself. He's more upset that Parson forced him to kill not that Parson causes death. He's more upset at what GKs actions have on his reputation in the MK than at what they mean for the wider world. He seems perfectly content to let Erfworld stay the same as long as he gets to keep his hands clean and have his fun in the MK.


I'm not disagreeing, but Sizemore isn't acting unnaturally if you think of him as a Person. As a unit, yeah, he's malfunctioning. As a person, being forced into situations he doesn't like and having literally Zero free will in the matter, having to lie to other casters - his friends, being a pacifist and being forced to kill, having his reputation with his friends destroyed by someone who also claims to be his friend but is some kind of unholy otherworldly death machine... Yeah, Sizemore is being a whiny carebear bitch lately. All things considered? He has a valid reason to be. :D Doesn't make him any less of a carebear. That's a better term than 'selfish' because he isn't selfish, but he is totally a carebear. :) There's nothing wrong with being one, just saying, that's his perspective. A no pvp casters-only zone suddenly got haxed. :D

Even how Sizemore mentioned destroying the Magic Kingdom's neutrality, he called it "the place anyone could go" but it's really the exclusive Super Special Caster Club, not booping Cheers. "Rulers, Warlords, and Titans forbid, filthy infantry and peasants, all need not apply, kthxbai" was the MK's motto until Parson showed up. However, if there's one exception to the rules, there are others. How about a carnymancer spell to break the gate restrictions, either on individuals or groups, or direct at the source. That's probably the real war, once other sides learn there are troops in the Magic Kingdom. IF they ever learn. Because if Parson has no actual intent to do harm to the MK, there's no reason for a buildup. He's just going to have to convince everyone else of that. Damn this meandered... O.o;


side note, I have the impression that the MK is not a natural zone or effect of Erfworld but was added in later somehow. I could be entirely wrong, but it's a cool idea. Just guessing.


and.. wow holy boop there's a lot of replies since I started. Okay like everyone else said yeah Sizemore is not a good guy or a bad guy here but overall nobody really knows what Parson has planned or what will happen, least of all Sizemore, so he is kinda getting butthurt over nothing. Carebear. :D



edit: btw just how horrible is the MK for not allowing the non-combatant units in? I mean, what did they ever do wrong? That's the one big group of innocent people that could easily be saved if a capital city was about to fall, or even under a threat. "Everyone into the MK, take a few turns worth of shmuckers" which is what, like 5 max or something lol :)

Speaking of which, what happened to the peasants? They weren't listed under the croaked. Did Wanda exclude non-combatants from the list? Did the broke, penniless Jetstone promote them all to field units? Is the field unit promotion cost for non-combatants dirt cheap? Do they not leave uncroakable or decryptable corpses, or are they not able to be uncroaked or decrypted? Do they magically get teleported to the new capital site? Anything else I didn't think of? :D
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lamech » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:17 am

Sizemore seems self-centered, more than selfish. He sees things from his perspective and doesn't try and examine it from others. The things that directly affect him get more time in his thoughts. However, if Sizemore wanted to live in the MK and not need to fight in wars he could just turn/go barbarian. Janice gets Sizemore to stick around by telling him he can end war. Sizemore is understandably traumatized by having to kill a bunch of people up close and personal. (As opposed to through his golems or the like.)

On a scale of good to evil, Sizemore is one of the good ones in Erfworld. Working with Janice to break the cycle of war. Excepting other Hippiemancers in their collective their the only two doing that. (Olive doesn't count since she spent most of her time squandering resources instead of going towards peace. Plus the whole all kill everyone thing was an issue.) Sizemore places more "value" on those close to him. But that's human. We put our friends above strangers. We are more upset when someone dies in front of us, than when someone dies on the other side of the world. Sizemore isn't perfect, but he's a Saint by the standards of Erfworld.

Here is a moral dilemma: A man is in a very expensive suit. Its required for his job. Its so expensive that he could save many lives for the cost of replacing it. He comes across a drowning child. The man could save the child, but it would ruin the suit requiring a new one to be bought. So does the man leave the child to die and donate some money to a charity? Or should he save the child? Sizemore is the kind of person who jumps into save the child.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Beeskee » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:34 am

Lamech wrote:The man could save the child, but it would ruin the suit requiring a new one to be bought. So does the man leave the child to die and donate some money to a charity? Or should he save the child? Sizemore is the kind of person who jumps into save the child.


I think Sizemore is only in the "sane" category for that particular moral choice. :D
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lipkin » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:56 am

Beeskee wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I don't buy it. Nothing is stopping Don from just removing Caesar as heir by this thought.


Not to nitpick but Don kinda is stopped from simply disbanding Caesar.

B2T16: A Ruler does not simply disband his top warlord in a time of crisis, or ever. And if a Ruler did disband a popular warlord, it could affect the Duty and Loyalty of all other units on the side.

So, he *could* disband Caesar, and risk "trouble at home" that would make his current problems look mild.

Tho that had nothing to do with your actual point. ;) I'm just mentioning that Don is kinda stuck with Caesar. Even if he sent him out in the woods to disband him, Caesar might ignore that disbanding order, rationalizing not disbanding under the "for the good of the side" clause. Sending him into dangerous battles is the best Don can do, and even then Caesar may be clever and/or strong enough to survive. S2009-047

You didn't understand what I was saying. Removing Caesar as heir literally means stripping Caesar of heir status. I'm saying that I do not buy that Rulers can remove units from heir status at will, because Don would have done so by now. He has to pop a new heir, or promote another unit to heir first.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Beeskee » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:59 am

Lipkin wrote:You didn't understand what I was saying. Removing Caesar as heir literally means stripping Caesar of heir status. I'm saying that I do not buy that Rulers can remove units from heir status at will, because Don would have done so by now. He has to pop an new heir, or promote another unit to heir first.


I thought you meant killing him. :P "Remoing Caesar as heir" sounds ominous. :D

Don can either make the new level 1 no bonuses kid chief, if he is extremely stupid, or he can leave Caesar and his TEN DAMN LEVELS in place, including a 10 TIMES bonus to his stack, a 5 TIMES bonus to his hex, and a 3 *xXx* multiplier to his entire freaking side. What do you think will happen? So, yeah, I didn't think you meant replacing Caesar as chief any time soon because that's really, really dumb. :D As far as heir, both units are heir. The new kid will obviously be first in line, given royal succession. Leaving Mr Level 10 as... Chief warlord where he belongs.

edit: oops, will continue in next :D
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lipkin » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:08 am

Beeskee wrote:
Lipkin wrote:You didn't understand what I was saying. Removing Caesar as heir literally means stripping Caesar of heir status. I'm saying that I do not buy that Rulers can remove units from heir status at will, because Don would have done so by now. He has to pop an new heir, or promote another unit to heir first.


I thought you meant killing him. :P "Remoing Caesar as heir" sounds ominous. :D

Don can either make the new level 1 no bonuses kid chief, if he is extremely stupid, or he can leave Caesar and his TEN DAMN LEVELS in place, including a 10 TIMES bonus to his stack, a 5 TIMES bonus to his hex, and a 3 *xXx* multiplier to his entire freaking side. What do you think will happen? So, yeah, I didn't think you meant replacing Caesar as chief any time soon because that's really, really dumb. :D As far as heir, both units are heir. The new kid will obviously be first in line, given royal succession. Leaving Mr Level 10 as... Chief warlord where he belongs.

I said nothing about CWL. bp was talking about how promoting units to heir might make them permanently potential heirs. He used the logic that you can promote a grunt to warlord, and then trade that warlord to another side, and the side doesn't have to promote that unit again to remake him a warlord. Once promoted, he stays promoted. He was saying that once promoted to heir, you stay an heir, even if you change sides. And I was saying that I didn't buy it, because if that was the case, Ansom would have been heir, or at least have had heir potential, of Gobwin Knob. But it's never even mentioned, and you would think Parson would have at least looked into it. If units can be stripped of heir status by their rulers, Don would probably have done it to Caesar.

And Don was talking about retiring Caesar to a quiet little Level 2 city. I doubt he'd make the heir CWL. He might recall Vinny and give it to him.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Beeskee » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:21 am

Heir doesn't carry over between forced captures or conversions, that makes no sense as "heir" is very much a specific-side thing. (Edit: It might xfer on willingness from both sides and all units involved, like a political marriage RL) The only special case is decrypted which is just from Parson being extra careful by saying "or may do X, we don't know" - I doubt it carries over even with decrypted. He could have said "or flowers may sprout out of Ossomer's butt when Slately croaks, we don't know." :D

For TV, there's no point in removing heir status from Caesar, it essentially costs like 150-175k and if nothing else Benjamin would chew poor Don's ear off. :D Caesar didn't take the retirement offer so he can't be put to pasture. Even if he did, he's sorely needed both to train the new level 1 warlord and protect him or her, a unit which takes 60 turns to pop, as well as for his chief warlord bonus unless Don has a bunch more level tens up his fat butt. Transylvito is down a bunch of warlords, troops, cities, shmuckers, and everything else right now. Don can't afford to put anyone to pasture.

And I covered CW because it was funny. My original reply was way ot from yours anyway, it was more of an aside not a direct reply. :D

Vinny might make a good heir. :D
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lipkin » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:38 am

Beeskee wrote:Heir doesn't carry over between forced captures or conversions, that makes no sense as "heir" is very much a specific-side thing. (Edit: It might xfer on willingness from both sides and all units involved, like a political marriage RL) The only special case is decrypted which is just from Parson being extra careful by saying "or may do X, we don't know" - I doubt it carries over even with decrypted. He could have said "or flowers may sprout out of Ossomer's butt when Slately croaks, we don't know." :D

For TV, there's no point in removing heir status from Caesar, it essentially costs like 150-175k and if nothing else Benjamin would chew poor Don's ear off. :D Caesar didn't take the retirement offer so he can't be put to pasture. Even if he did, he's sorely needed both to train the new level 1 warlord and protect him or her, a unit which takes 60 turns to pop, as well as for his chief warlord bonus unless Don has a bunch more level tens up his fat butt. Transylvito is down a bunch of warlords, troops, cities, shmuckers, and everything else right now. Don can't afford to put anyone to pasture.

And I covered CW because it was funny. My original reply was way ot from yours anyway, it was more of an aside not a direct reply. :D

Vinny might make a good heir. :D

Again, you miss my point. It would cost 150-175k to promote another unit to heir. It would cost nothing to strip Caesar of his heirship, if such a thing were possible. Which it isn't.

That was my point. The only way to make Caesar not the next in line, is to have another heir. I don't care about the motives for or against doing so, because it's irrelevant. It can't be done.

As for Caesar's fate after the heir pops, I think you are gravely mistaken. Don isn't gonna want him anywhere near the heir.

1. If the heir croaks, Caesar is back on top, and we know from Olive that "mistakes" can happen.
2. Caesar is charismatic, respected, and powerful. You don't want to make your heir take lessons from that guy.
3. This is more of just a general point. It doesn't matter that Caesar turned down Don's retirement offer. Don can order him to maintain the level 2 city, and then Caesar either has to comply, revolt, or disband.

As a final note, Vinny would not make a good heir, because he is Noble, not Royal. He might make a good ruler, but he wouldn't make a suitable one for Don's requirements.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Beeskee » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:13 am

And you misunderstand me, I was referring to the promotion cost, not meaning that there would be a cost to remove heir status. :D

As far as what will happen in the comic, nobody really knows except Rob, we'll all find out. I don't know if (and again, didn't mean) Don will want Caesar squished up against the new heir 24/whatever, but likely at least in the same hex for the bonus, and lots of training runs to get the new heir leveled up if he's going to be a warlord/warrior heir. Obviously if Don plans for the new heir to be a stay-at-home heir who never levels, then obviously never mind the leveling and training, it would only apply if the heir was going to be active. I don't think Don specified either way. And the new heir might have their own opinion.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby Lipkin » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:09 am

Beeskee wrote:And you misunderstand me, I was referring to the promotion cost, not meaning that there would be a cost to remove heir status. :D

As far as what will happen in the comic, nobody really knows except Rob, we'll all find out. I don't know if (and again, didn't mean) Don will want Caesar squished up against the new heir 24/whatever, but likely at least in the same hex for the bonus, and lots of training runs to get the new heir leveled up if he's going to be a warlord/warrior heir. Obviously if Don plans for the new heir to be a stay-at-home heir who never levels, then obviously never mind the leveling and training, it would only apply if the heir was going to be active. I don't think Don specified either way. And the new heir might have their own opinion.

I understood what you were referring to. I just don't see why, as I wasn't talking about promotion.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 22

Postby wih » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:21 am

Do we know that there can only be 1 heir at a time?
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