Digdoug - Episode 19

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Re: Massively Disappointed ...

Postby Roszlishan » Mon May 12, 2014 5:17 pm

themysticalone wrote:Yes, but if author needs X in a scene and X makes no good sense given the context, then putting X in that scene is a poor writing decision.

The author is responsible for the context, exactly as the author is responsible for scene and story and characters. Omission of a scene -- for whatever reason -- is just as much an authorial decision and responsibility as inclusion.

In the scenario you posit -- the author needs X, but X makes no sense -- then the author has to change something so that it will make sense. That's what authors do; they no more sit and describe a scene passively than a sculptor picks up a chisel and chips away everything that doesn't look like David. Writing takes the same sort of planning, construction, preparation, outlining, and forethought that any other creative endeavor requires. It's work, and a great deal of it.

Pretending otherwise is a great disservice to authors.
Last edited by Roszlishan on Tue May 13, 2014 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massively Disappointed ...

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Mon May 12, 2014 5:23 pm

Roszlishan wrote:
themysticalone wrote:Yes, but if author needs X in a scene and X makes no good sense given the context, then putting X in that scene is a poor writing decision.

The author is responsible for the context, exactly as the author is responsible for scene and story and characters. Omission of a scene -- for whatever reason -- is just as much an authorial decision and responsibility as inclusion.

In the scenario you posit -- the author needs X, but X makes no sense -- then the author has to change something so that is will make sense. That's what authors do; they no more sit and describe a scene passively than a sculptor picks up a chisel and chips away everything that doesn't look like David. Writing takes the same sort of planning, construction, preparation, outlining, and forethought that any other creative endeavor requires. It's work, and a great deal of it.

Pretending otherwise is a great disservice to authors.



I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien had one of his battle depend on the full moon but then realized that the moon couldn't be full at that moment and then rewrote a chunk of his story because that part couldn'T happen... that would be a case of author need X, X cannot be, author write something else instead. Remember that writting is an art and that there are quite a few different schools on the way to procceed when you face such problem when writting.
Last edited by ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ on Mon May 12, 2014 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massively Disappointed ...

Postby Lilwik » Mon May 12, 2014 6:00 pm

Roszlishan wrote:The author is responsible for the context, exactly as the author is responsible for scene and story and characters. Omission of a scene -- for whatever reason -- is just as much an authorial decision and responsibility as inclusion.
It's a decision when he is choosing to omit or include a scene that actually happens; that sort of decision is made by authors all the time, but an author can't decide to include a counterfactual scene, and omitting a counterfactual scene is no more a decision for an author than it is for a historian. Omitting counterfactual scenes is just how the job is done.

You're right that the author chooses the context. Just like a historian, Rob Balder chooses who he will write about and what events in their lives to focus on. Perhaps something more interesting would happen to Digdoug at another time in his life (but I doubt it), and if so then we might be right to criticize Rob Balder for choosing to tell this story instead of that story. Perhaps this story would have been better told with a focus on Posbrake or Dove, but it's not fair to judge that until the story is over. One thing we mustn't ask for is a story of Digdoug the warlord who leads a stack to defend Homekey against Delkey, because that wouldn't be our Digdoug. It would be some wildly different Digdoug that we've never seen, and I don't care what happens to that Digdoug. I want to know what happens to our Digdoug, the real Digdoug who is a Dirtamancer and therefore is kept away from fighting most of the time. Our Digdoug doesn't get a climax in the heat of battle; he gets a climax in the Magic Kingdom because he is a caster and not even a combat caster like a Naughtymancer.

Maybe the next story won't be about a caster.
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Re: Massively Disappointed ...

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Tue May 13, 2014 1:52 am

I am curious about why you feel that the abrupt scene change makes no sense - it made perfect sense. Rob made a brilliant decision in abruptly switching the scenes when he did - he's given us the same sense of disorientation and frustration that poor DigDoug must be feeling right now. And amusingly enough, you're busy taking your anger and frustration out on him the same way Digdoug was taking his out on Dove in the current update, Roszlishan.

The main purpose of learning about Homekey thus far seems to be to establish Digdoug's unique fortune and great comfort while living with that side, and the devastating loss inflicted on him by Homekey's destruction. It has also set up the fact that Digdoug is pretty clueless when it comes to politics and strategy, which gives him a great place for character growth. I get the feeling that Digdoug's current perilous situation (stuck in a strange place with a cynical, savvy Carny for a guide) is going to help force him to become more cunning and aware of his surroundings. Maybe. Whatever happens, I hope we get to see the second half of this storyline.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Tue May 13, 2014 12:30 pm

╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
Prodigial_Knight wrote:
╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
Wouldn't it be great to see a Royal dirtamancer? Heir of his side and all that crap, but the lowest kind of caster... how would other character treat such a freakish contradiction?


Have we ever seen a Caster who was explicitly Royal/Noble I remember being some discussion about this when we had Wanda's origin but given that her father was a Overlord nothing came out of that.

Imho stacking the Royal template on a Caster wouldn't make them much more powerfull than a normal Caster, they probably would get traction only from the level up slightly faster part as their stats would be too low even with the bonus to go into combat.

And as a link with Stupidworld history, there were large epochs when public education was just not a thing discoveries were still made but the men and women who did them had to have come from the priviliged classes so to have time to study and create.




Empress Saltina?

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Noble


Her wiki said she was declared a heir after rising in favour with the court, so I assumed she was in the same situation as Stanley.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Keighvin1 » Tue May 13, 2014 12:38 pm

If she were a commoner like Stanley, I don't think she would be called Empress. It's likely a similar situation to Tramennis, where it wasn't felt necessary to pop an heir, so she was Royal without being automatically the heir.

Edit: Also, apparently wan't is not considered a typo, but Tramennis is.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Tue May 13, 2014 2:29 pm

Keighvin1 wrote:If she were a commoner like Stanley, I don't think she would be called Empress. It's likely a similar situation to Tramennis, where it wasn't felt necessary to pop an heir, so she was Royal without being automatically the heir.

Edit: Also, apparently wan't is not considered a typo, but Tramennis is.


I'm ok with Noble/Royal casters, but Salina now is making me curious about the title of "Empress" is it just a equivalent to Queen or is there something more to it, just my opinion but if there was a side which deserves the title of empire it would be one like Haffaton where it's size is so big it's practically a disadvantage.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Godzfirefly » Tue May 13, 2014 2:36 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:
Keighvin1 wrote:If she were a commoner like Stanley, I don't think she would be called Empress. It's likely a similar situation to Tramennis, where it wasn't felt necessary to pop an heir, so she was Royal without being automatically the heir.

Edit: Also, apparently wan't is not considered a typo, but Tramennis is.


I'm ok with Noble/Royal casters, but Salina now is making me curious about the title of "Empress" is it just a equivalent to Queen or is there something more to it, just my opinion but if there was a side which deserves the title of empire it would be one like Haffaton where it's size is so big it's practically a disadvantage.



Empress could also be an affectation, a title which means little more than "Queen of a side that includes more than one capital site." Or, it could actually be her first name, instead of a title. Erfworld has certainly thrown sillier puns at Parson and us in its time.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Keighvin1 » Tue May 13, 2014 3:31 pm

Her first name is Snacki, and I think that using different titles, unless we hear different from Balder, is more of a cultural affectation than anything. Though, since we have no idea of the size of Dystokyo, it could have been much larger than most sides.
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Re: Massively Disappointed ...

Postby Roszlishan » Tue May 13, 2014 5:08 pm

Jacinth and Rubies wrote:I am curious about why you feel that the abrupt scene change makes no sense - it made perfect sense. Rob made a brilliant decision in abruptly switching the scenes when he did - he's given us the same sense of disorientation and frustration that poor DigDoug must be feeling right now. And amusingly enough, you're busy taking your anger and frustration out on him the same way Digdoug was taking his out on Dove in the current update, Roszlishan.


Your paraphrase of my commentary does not reflect my intended meaning. After reviewing what I wrote, I cannot agree that your paraphrase is defensible. I did not say the abrupt scene change made no sense.

I said the abrupt scene change was jarring and unpleasant to me as a reader, and I attempted to explain why. Explaining why a particular story or phrase or element has any particular effect on me (much less on anyone else) is always a difficult task, and I'm not surprised I was less than completely successful.

I would take it as a great favor if you would cease to ascribe motivations to me other than that of being clearly understood. I have never found such personal remarks or asides to add value to a conversation.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby 0beron » Tue May 13, 2014 5:16 pm

The scene isn't supposed to have resolution. That's where you're running into problems, you're expecting something the author doesn't want.
If you got the resolution and answers you're asking for, it would basically be a spoiler. Rob is putting us in Digdoug's shoes, because after all the story is told by him, and because that story is not yet over. He has more to tell, so clearly showing us events that Digdoug is not privy to would ruin whatever future suprise Rob has planned, and lessen our enjoyment of the story's eventual resolution. I think it's your failure to recognize that the story is not yet done that is causing you such confusion and disappointment.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Tue May 13, 2014 9:42 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
Prodigial_Knight wrote:
Keighvin1 wrote:If she were a commoner like Stanley, I don't think she would be called Empress. It's likely a similar situation to Tramennis, where it wasn't felt necessary to pop an heir, so she was Royal without being automatically the heir.

Edit: Also, apparently wan't is not considered a typo, but Tramennis is.


I'm ok with Noble/Royal casters, but Salina now is making me curious about the title of "Empress" is it just a equivalent to Queen or is there something more to it, just my opinion but if there was a side which deserves the title of empire it would be one like Haffaton where it's size is so big it's practically a disadvantage.



Empress could also be an affectation, a title which means little more than "Queen of a side that includes more than one capital site." Or, it could actually be her first name, instead of a title. Erfworld has certainly thrown sillier puns at Parson and us in its time.



Or as is the case in real life it could be the title of someone ruling an Empire, which is a political construct includimg many states , each with their own ruler, but all under the autority of the emperor/ess. Empires could be a nice work around the rule that make schmuckers production decreaase as you obtain more cities.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Lilwik » Tue May 13, 2014 9:58 pm

╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:Empires could be a nice work around the rule that make shmuckers production decrease as you obtain more cities.
That makes sense. It could be like the So-be-it Union, but enforced by a large side upon smaller sides. For example, there might be one very large side surrounded by a thin layer of satellite sides that are forbidden from expanding. Instead of paying upkeep to a large army, the satellite sides are required to pay taxes to the large side. The large side keeps as powerful an army as it can afford so that even if all the satellite sides worked together they couldn't defeat the large side, but at the same time the large side has a mutual protection agreement with all the satellites.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Tue May 13, 2014 10:00 pm

Lilwik wrote:
╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:Empires could be a nice work around the rule that make shmuckers production decrease as you obtain more cities.
That makes sense. It could be like the So-be-it Union, but enforced by a large side upon smaller sides. For example, there might be one very large side surrounded by a thin layer of satellite sides that are forbidden from expanding. Instead of paying upkeep to a large army, the satellite sides are required to pay taxes to the large side. The large side keeps as powerful an army as it can afford so that even if all the satellite sides worked together they couldn't defeat the large side, but at the same time the large side has a mutual protection agreement with all the satellites.



I could definitely see such a side valuing a thinkamancer to the point of appointing her heir of the empire as is told in Saltina's biography.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby The_Rats » Wed May 14, 2014 5:41 pm

0beron wrote:The scene isn't supposed to have resolution. That's where you're running into problems, you're expecting something the author doesn't want.
If you got the resolution and answers you're asking for, it would basically be a spoiler. Rob is putting us in Digdoug's shoes, because after all the story is told by him, and because that story is not yet over. He has more to tell, so clearly showing us events that Digdoug is not privy to would ruin whatever future suprise Rob has planned, and lessen our enjoyment of the story's eventual resolution. I think it's your failure to recognize that the story is not yet done that is causing you such confusion and disappointment.


ditto, also by showing us what happened would prevent the reader from connecting to DigDoug emotional breakdown and rebuid, the best way to let us feel the angst and depression and conflicting emotions and suspicion and confusion is to let us know only what he knows.

This is DigDoug story!, not homekey, not postbrake's.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Snowbody » Mon May 19, 2014 9:46 am

When I read
Dove wrote:I’ll pay your upkeep, hon. Just this once, okay? I never do that.


why am I remembering dealing with salesmen who said

"For you?" (looks me up and down) "Special price! (exactly what is in my wallet) dollars."

or the salesman who said

"I'm giving you a really good deal here, my boss will be so mad when he finds out, I might even get in trouble. It's (exactly what is in my wallet, 20x the price Amazon would charge)"

Dove is clearly orchestrating things so that all the evidence DigDoug can easily gather will support her show.
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