Digdoug - Episode 18

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Kornaki » Sun May 04, 2014 4:19 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote: Yet I think the problem is sustainability, what happens when Posbrake runs out of enemies to conquer, for example he conquers Numlock and finds that they were standing at the base of mountain hexes Posbrake now has a very large army and cities which don't have much revenue due to their low level + the penalties for being a bigger side.

What does he do, decomission his army, transition back into a traditional sustainable model ?

Revamping his side could take time and even worse what if he is the one attacked while being in defensive mode, his offense first strategy works great only if he is on the offensive.


If Posbrake runs out of adjacent enemies then it is unlikely Homekey will be attacked.

These are legitimate fears Posbrake will have when he runs out of space to grow into, and Minus will find himself right next door to a side which needs to conquer in order to survive.


This is a legitimate concern for Delkey, that Posbrake will decide his tactics are so good he can use them on Delkey. Given that he views the alliance as an inconvenience it makes sense for Delkey to strike while the iron's hot and take out their nearest long term threat. On the other hand this isn't the argument that Creen is giving as to why Homekey needs new leadership.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lilwik » Sun May 04, 2014 4:27 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:Yet I think the problem is sustainability, what happens when Posbrake runs out of enemies to conquer, for example he conquers Numlock and finds that they were standing at the base of mountain hexes Posbrake now has a very large army and cities which don't have much revenue due to their low level + the penalties for being a bigger side.
That's not actually a problem. If Posbrake found that Homekey had conquered too much then he could simply raze some of his outer cities for shmuckers. That would pay for his army and give other sides room to grow into the space he is creating. Once other sides have rebuilt some of the cities that he razed, he can conquer them again.

Even though Posbrake wouldn't ever need to change strategies, I expect that he would change strategies eventually since he seems like a rather flexible thinker. Once Homekey becomes too big for any of its neighbors to threaten it, I imagine that Posbrake might abandon his expansionist policy and change his focus to cementing his advantage by upgrading his cities. As long as he only does this once Homekey is huge, there shouldn't be any danger. Even if some unexpected enemy somehow attacked with a force large enough to threaten Homekey, it would take quite a few turns before Homekey would be in mortal danger and that would give Posbrake time to rebuild his huge army and shift back into his current strategy.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby victor227 » Sun May 04, 2014 5:08 pm

One big thing is that Delkey is -afraid- of Homekey. As Posbrake points out, they've grown too big, too strong, and their horizontal strategy makes them a tough side to fight, as the ebb and flow of a war favors them pretty well. Most of all, they're -hungry-. Homekey is a side that doesn't nurture its cities, and pretty much solely relies on war to maintain itself. It's on the verge of devouring Numloch, what happens after that? It either settles down and horribly deflates, or it gobbles up Delkey and their other neighbor next.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lamech » Sun May 04, 2014 9:41 pm

I think Posbreak might plan on becoming more sustainable via farms and such. I.E. more dirtamancy. See all the cabbage he grows in his capital. The only other side to grow stuff in cities was Haffaton. The side that ran on pure flower power.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby drachefly » Sun May 04, 2014 9:58 pm

Yeah, given the gardens, I suspect Posbreak's strategy is reasonably stable in the case where it works.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Aquillion » Sun May 04, 2014 10:14 pm

Kornaki wrote:If Posbrake runs out of adjacent enemies then it is unlikely Homekey will be attacked.
What are you basing this on? I mean, we've seen things from the side of his relatively peace-loving dirtamancer, so we're inclined to say that he wouldn't do it; but from Homekey's perspective, it's an entirely reasonable fear. Especially since...

Lilwik wrote:That's not actually a problem. If Posbrake found that Homekey had conquered too much then he could simply raze some of his outer cities for shmuckers.
Seriously? That's your answer?

They could do it, yes. But it's entirely reasonable for Homekey to assume that razing unthreatened cities purely to avoid attacking, well, Homekey is insane and unlikely to happen.

And we've seen no real indication that Posbreak actually is loyal to Homekey -- we don't know much of his personality. His dirtamancer doesn't think about these things because that's just not how Digdoug thinks, but we have no reason to think that Posbreak wouldn't one day look at the books, consider the one-sided and annoying nature of his alliance with Homekey, and break it in order to smash them. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't; but given that the one thing Homekey knows is that his family loyalty to his own son didn't stop him from doing what was strategically expedient, it's entirely reasonable for them to assume that he's going to attack them before he gets to the point of razing his own cities.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby 0beron » Sun May 04, 2014 11:16 pm

Someone compared Posbroke's strategy to Haffaton, and I doubt that will come to pass. Posbroke is pragmatic. Building wide rather than tall is still going to reach a limit. Eventually the side will hit the maximum total city levels and their income will peak, meaning their army must stay fixed in size after that or else they'll crumble. Olive kept Haffaton growing because she wanted to conquer the world in "peace"...Posbroke has no such grand ideas. When the smart time to stop comes, he will do so. Granted at that point the side will probably cover more territory than your average side, and there will be boarder skirmishes with his neighbors, but he won't continue out and out indefinitely.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lamech » Mon May 05, 2014 1:49 am

0beron wrote:Someone compared Posbroke's strategy to Haffaton, and I doubt that will come to pass. Posbroke is pragmatic. Building wide rather than tall is still going to reach a limit. Eventually the side will hit the maximum total city levels and their income will peak, meaning their army must stay fixed in size after that or else they'll crumble. Olive kept Haffaton growing because she wanted to conquer the world in "peace"...Posbroke has no such grand ideas. When the smart time to stop comes, he will do so. Granted at that point the side will probably cover more territory than your average side, and there will be boarder skirmishes with his neighbors, but he won't continue out and out indefinitely.

The comparison wasn't to say they would try a full-fledged Haffaton, but that Posbrake is farming an abnormal amount. He is getting income from a place other than his cities. Like the trees in the Magic Kingdom, I think he is playing wide AND tall. Defense wise that is what he is doing, his cities have full defense, but lowered income. If he fixes the income issue... maybe he'll even do Parson's 0 upkeep strategy with his cities.

Also Olive also managed to fritter away the majority of Haffaton's resources/casters. The thinkamancer, the lookamancer, the dirtamancer, she was even throwing away the Tool and Wanda.

Final thought: Trading away the Royal Heir - isn't that basically what Delkey did? Sure it will take a while for the previous overlord to die, but he'll get the whole side under his son's (daughter's?) control.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Mrtyuh » Mon May 05, 2014 3:03 am

Prodigial_Knight wrote:True I gave that example without taking into account royal/noble bonuses, which in DnD terms would be a template and as you said broken as it appears to have 0 drawbacks, to illustrate what I thought were the trade-offs between a commissioned Warlord and a field commissioned Warlord.

If we look at the practical situation Creen has the royal advantage against Peck in addition to having been popped as a Warlord (+ his lightsaber).

Now I want to know if the bonuses derived from nobility are uniform or they vary with rank, an interesting case study Cesar is the CW under Don a very practical King and much is made of him being the lowest level of nobility yet still Don didn't appoint a promoted warlord but I might be over thinking things and Cesar was just the best Warlord at the time.

The might be one drawback. Jillian was going to have to sacrifice sixty turns of her capital's production to produce an heir. We do know that it takes extra turns to produce a warlord as an heir. We don't know if it takes longer for a Royal side to produce a warlord than a non-royal side. Given their greater attributes, it would not be unreasonable to expect a royal/noble warlord to take longer to pop than a commoner. Still, if you have the Schmuckers, it is much quicker to just promote a unit to warlord than to pop one.

The greatest disadvantage the Royals seem to suffer is their own hubris, and I think Caesar is the perfect example. He's been referred to as barely noble, but I doubt, to use your terminology, that there is a different template for a Viscount, a Count or a Duke; there is probably simply a noble template. Still, in their vanity, royals and noble end up putting undue importance to something that in reality just a matter of semantics. Also, we saw Artemis be made into a political scapegoat at court and exiled to manage a city, which was a waste of her ability.

Xarx wrote:The trade-off, if theres is one, may come down to cost or time. How much of your productivity will be tied up in popping a new noble warlord vs. how much it will cost to promote a common one.

But really I think it's more a matter of merit. Yes, a noble warlord has better stats and levels faster, and that's great, but there's no guarantee that he won't be a twit. Some rulers might prefer to put proven warriors in command.

We know for a fact that Count Topotato was in fact a twit.

Lamech wrote:Final thought: Trading away the Royal Heir - isn't that basically what Delkey did? Sure it will take a while for the previous overlord to die, but he'll get the whole side under his son's (daughter's?) control.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Delkey allowed their heir to spin off a new side and lent support for the endeavor. How is that the same as trading away the heir?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon May 05, 2014 3:17 am

Nothing Lamech just said made any sense. I think he is mixing up several sides and plots, like he is confusing Haffaton with Gobwin Knob and Homekey with Goodminton or something.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lamech » Mon May 05, 2014 10:43 am

Mrtyuh wrote:
Lamech wrote:Final thought: Trading away the Royal Heir - isn't that basically what Delkey did? Sure it will take a while for the previous overlord to die, but he'll get the whole side under his son's (daughter's?) control.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Delkey allowed their heir to spin off a new side and lent support for the endeavor. How is that the same as trading away the heir?

The kid ends up with his very own side. At least I assume that's why they spent so much to buy a royal heir instead of just popping their own warlord.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Mon May 05, 2014 11:34 am

my two cents:

This story is exploring and expanding on several themes already present in the Erfworld setting: Love vs Loyalty, the role of Nobility in Erf, convention vs. experimentation, and common prejudices and suspicions of Erf.

I'm with those who think Bucky is the traitor; she has revealed she was in love with King Posbrake, and she probably hates Dove for "stealing" the king from her. She may be counting on her betrayal to be blamed on Dove (after all: who can trust a Carny? of course she's the traitor!) in order to drive her back to the MK.

Delkey obviously has huge Royalist snobbery (where Webinar had a gump wedged, Creen has got a whole stack... possibly two), but his question is a good one: what is the point of Royalty? And in what ways did the Titans want Royals to be "better" than non-Royals? I can see that trading a Royal for a Dirtamancer would be seen as "heresy" in Delkey's eyes, given the way most Royals see and use Dirtamancers on Erf. But perhaps Posbrake did commit some kind of error in trading away his son - though perhaps Delkey ought to think about what it means to force a Royal to have an heir simply to have Nobility as leadership. It's a tough call on this one. Book 2 did considerable exploration into the nature of what it means to be Royal/Noble in terms of active vs. passive leadership, but there may be other aspects (such as honour) that also warrant consideration (Rob did take a stab at this during the summer updates via Tea with Don King and Jillian). Prince Creen may have a point... even when his proposed solution is completely wrong.

RIP, Peck - I am sorry that your last day caused you to lose great esteem for royalty. May the Titans reward you well.

Speaking of Peck - should Homekey survive this ordeal with Posbrake as leader, who is going to be chief Warlord now? Is Hunt still around? Perhaps it would be wise for Posbrake to pop an heir (though perhaps on his own terms this time...).

Oooh, and if Creen survives as a captured unit, perhaps Posbrake can trade another heir for another useful caster :twisted:
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon May 05, 2014 1:59 pm

Jacinth and Rubies wrote:Speaking of Peck - should Homekey survive this ordeal with Posbrake as leader, who is going to be chief Warlord now? Is Hunt still around? Perhaps it would be wise for Posbrake to pop an heir (though perhaps on his own terms this time...).


Wasn't Hunt the original Chief Warlord that died to make Peck the warlord?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lilwik » Mon May 05, 2014 4:48 pm

Jacinth and Rubies wrote:I'm with those who think Bucky is the traitor; she has revealed she was in love with King Posbrake, and she probably hates Dove for "stealing" the king from her. She may be counting on her betrayal to be blamed on Dove (after all: who can trust a Carny? of course she's the traitor!) in order to drive her back to the MK.
How would Bucky arrange to have it blamed on Dove? I presume that Bucky would want to have a plan for that before she betrays Homekey. Posbrake certainly doesn't seem like the kind of ruler to put faith in stereotypes, and what would be Dove's motive?

Godzfirefly wrote:Wasn't Hunt the original Chief Warlord that died to make Peck the warlord?
No, that was Carl Tunnel. It's explained in Episode 5.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Xarx » Mon May 05, 2014 5:34 pm

Do people really think that Posbrake's former heir would retain his heir status with his new side? The mechanics of this have not been thoroughly explained, but I'd be very surprised if that were the case.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Mon May 05, 2014 8:15 pm

Lilwik wrote:How would Bucky arrange to have it blamed on Dove? I presume that Bucky would want to have a plan for that before she betrays Homekey. Posbrake certainly doesn't seem like the kind of ruler to put faith in stereotypes, and what would be Dove's motive?


It's the nature of the information exposed to Creen (and revealed to Posbrake) that Bucky is counting on indicting Dove: only Dove, Bucky, Posbrake, Digdoug and Peck were privy to knowing about the books, and Bucky was in charge of the notes passed to Delkey. If Bucky is indeed the traitor, she will be counting on her position and devotion to Homekey and the prejudices against Carnymancy to keep herself above suspicion while undermining Posbrake's trust in Dove. Keep in mind that Posbrake is likely unaware of Bucky's affections for him, and is also likely very keenly aware of the stigmas surrounding Carnymancy. I expect that Bucky may level some accusations regarding that info leak, should Posbrake retain his kingdom. I also expect that if this does happen, she'll overplay her hand just like in the Carnymancy game and give herself away at some point (though it might not be until after Dove leaves).

Xarx wrote:Do people really think that Posbrake's former heir would retain his heir status with his new side? The mechanics of this have not been thoroughly explained, but I'd be very surprised if that were the case.


I think it may kinda be moot at this point - based upon the other cases we've seen, heir status seems to give rather limited benefits to an heir who is not within the borders of their kingdom at the time of their Predecessor's demise. All it means is that he won't disband should Posbrake croak (and possibly should the side he was traded to fall).
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon May 05, 2014 8:21 pm

Posbrake was just double crossed by a mercenary (also oddly enough a Carny, but Posbrake doesn't know that), it's only natural he'd assume Dove betrayed him.

Why wouldn't Heir transfer? It appears to be a special like any other. A flying unit doesn't lose Flying when it changes side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lilwik » Mon May 05, 2014 8:34 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:Posbrake was just double crossed by a mercenary (also oddly enough a Carny, but Posbrake doesn't know that), it's only natural he'd assume Dove betrayed him.
It's not natural to assume someone is guilty without any evidence. There has been no indication that Dove is a traitor and as far as I can see Dove has no possible motive. If a possible motive were known for Dove then it would make perfect sense for Posbrake to assume her guilt, and in that case I expect that she really would be guilty.

GWvsJohn wrote:Why wouldn't Heir transfer? It appears to be a special like any other. A flying unit doesn't lose Flying when it changes side.
A ruler stops being a ruler when it changes sides. Being an heir might have more in common with being a ruler than flying.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon May 05, 2014 9:10 pm

Lilwik wrote:
GWvsJohn wrote:Posbrake was just double crossed by a mercenary (also oddly enough a Carny, but Posbrake doesn't know that), it's only natural he'd assume Dove betrayed him.
It's not natural to assume someone is guilty without any evidence. There has been no indication that Dove is a traitor and as far as I can see Dove has no possible motive. If a possible motive were known for Dove then it would make perfect sense for Posbrake to assume her guilt, and in that case I expect that she really would be guilty.

GWvsJohn wrote:Why wouldn't Heir transfer? It appears to be a special like any other. A flying unit doesn't lose Flying when it changes side.
A ruler stops being a ruler when it changes sides. Being an heir might have more in common with being a ruler than flying.


Someone has to be at fault. The obvious choice is Dove, either through failure to perform her task as advertised or through treachery.

That's true about Rulers, but sides can only have 1 Ruler, which is unique as far as I know. I think the only Heir we know to have changed sides (besides Posbrake's son) is Olive and she was heir of Haffaton as well.

Edit: not counting decrypted
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby bpzinn » Mon May 05, 2014 9:31 pm

Jacinth and Rubies wrote:
Xarx wrote:Do people really think that Posbrake's former heir would retain his heir status with his new side? The mechanics of this have not been thoroughly explained, but I'd be very surprised if that were the case.


I think it may kinda be moot at this point - based upon the other cases we've seen, heir status seems to give rather limited benefits to an heir who is not within the borders of their kingdom at the time of their Predecessor's demise. All it means is that he won't disband should Posbrake croak (and possibly should the side he was traded to fall).


I think some people are assuming that when Digdoug's old side agreed to the trade, they were specifically shopping for royalty. And if that is the case it is not unreasonable to assume he would be made heir of their side; royal conventional thought seems to assume having a royal heir waiting in the wings is a moral imperative. Trading for one avoids a ~60 window of vulnerability poping their own.

But we do not know that is the case. They did not value Digdoug very highly, and could have accepted any (noble) warlord, and just thought they got a bargin because Posbrake undervalued his firstborn son. If they already had a Heir, Posbrake's son might be treated as just another warlord.
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