Digdoug - Episode 18

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat May 03, 2014 1:42 am

Goshen wrote:
Mrtyuh wrote:
Goshen wrote:So, it looks like the trap simply worked the way it was supposed to. Creen was a flying enemy near the tower and a bolt of lightning just happened to strike the remote tower at that time.

Maybe, maybe not. Myself and a few others expect the lightning strikes from the trap to come from the spire Digdoug constructed at the top of the tower. Of course, just because we expect it doesn't mean that is the case. It is entirely possible that the lightning will emanate from the tower itself, as happened with the bolt that struck Creen. The big question is whether or not the trap has been activated. It has been stated several times that it will only work after being activated. We know Digdoug did not activate it; he was too preoccupied with the scroll. I doubt Dove could activate, since she isn't a Homekey unit. It is possible Peck activated it before he was croaked, but that happened very quickly. It's also possible that Posbrake activated it. Still, given the big deal made over activating the trap, it seems odd that it wasn't explicitly stated when someone did so. So, at this point, I don't know if the trap is what struck Creen or if the bolt originated from another source. I'm leaning towards the other source theory, but I can see it going either way. I feel we currently lack enough information to definitively determine the source.

Agreed. IMHO, my explanation is a little more likely, just because it is simpler, but we really need more information.



Maybe Dove made herself the recipient of Digdoug's storm powered spell. So Digdoug didn't actually make a storm powered spell/weapon ...well he did, but not on the tower.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby spriteless » Sat May 03, 2014 9:06 am

arbo wrote:
Arky wrote:if only he was wearing a hat, so that DigDoug could end up with a Creen's Cap to remind him of this event.


Well, at leasta Creen's shot.

And DigDoug ended up being Creen's saver.

How tough is he? Maybe Prince Creen is captured.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby LordAcme » Sat May 03, 2014 10:04 am

Lilwik wrote:
LordAcme wrote:“And I shall have one spell upon me,” said Posbrake, with intense conviction. “A Carnymancy spell. A spell that breaks the rules. A spell that says, ‘this unit, for this turn, cannot be hit by any ranged attack.”

Ruh roh. Either we have a continuity error, or....Dove renewed the spell on the last turn change. But, she would have had to do so at a distance through her window.
There's a third possibility: maybe the spell lasts all day and Posbrake just didn't mention it since everyone naturally assumed that the attack would be over by the end of Numloch's turn. At the time he was talking, only Numloch's turn was thought to matter and any duration the spell has beyond that is just a bonus. Posbrake never specifically said when the spell would end.


Umm, the description by Posbrake is quite clear. "Maybe Rob didn't write that character's line correctly" is a possibility, but that makes it a continuity error. Unless later on we find out that Rob wrote Posbrake to be wrong about that on purpose.

But that's not how Rob writes ime. There's no point or purpose when he could have just had Posbrake say "one day". But there's a reason he wouldn't - all actions go by turns in Erfworld. I don't remember anything other than provisions that goes by day.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat May 03, 2014 10:12 am

LordAcme wrote:
Umm, the description by Posbrake is quite clear. "Maybe Rob didn't write that character's line correctly" is a possibility, but that makes it a continuity error. Unless later on we find out that Rob wrote Posbrake to be wrong about that on purpose.

But that's not how Rob writes ime. There's no point or purpose when he could have just had Posbrake say "one day". But there's a reason he wouldn't - all actions go by turns in Erfworld. I don't remember anything other than provisions that goes by day.


Well, sunlight for one thing. All turns also end at the end of the day, so any possibility of troop movement for any side is done by day (so you don't have to keep quite as close of an eye on things and can concentrate more on planning, etc), and if Move is used for anything else we know that it drops to 0 at by nightfall (possibly at turns end).

Also, provisions go by turn's start, not by day. See Archons entering GK's airspace and delaying the rations there.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby LordAcme » Sat May 03, 2014 10:16 am

Mrtyuh wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Ruh roh. Either we have a continuity error, or....
There's a third possibility: maybe the spell lasts all day and Posbrake just didn't mention it since everyone naturally assumed that the attack would be over by the end of Numloch's turn. At the time he was talking, only Numloch's turn was thought to matter and any duration the spell has beyond that is just a bonus. Posbrake never specifically said when the spell would end.

Also, in Erfworld turn is often synonymous with day, e.g. when Judy uses year, Jillian wondered why you'd need a term for 365 turns.


Well that is actually true. I don't have an answer for that. I would presume that characters who are planning battles would take the fact that turns don't actually equal days into account when they speak though. It just doesn't make sense for them to introduce confusion into planning when life and Side is on the line, even if the misterm is commonly used.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby LordAcme » Sat May 03, 2014 10:18 am

cheeseaholic wrote:
LordAcme wrote:
Umm, the description by Posbrake is quite clear. "Maybe Rob didn't write that character's line correctly" is a possibility, but that makes it a continuity error. Unless later on we find out that Rob wrote Posbrake to be wrong about that on purpose.

But that's not how Rob writes ime. There's no point or purpose when he could have just had Posbrake say "one day". But there's a reason he wouldn't - all actions go by turns in Erfworld. I don't remember anything other than provisions that goes by day.


Well, sunlight for one thing. All turns also end at the end of the day, so any possibility of troop movement for any side is done by day (so you don't have to keep quite as close of an eye on things and can concentrate more on planning, etc), and if Move is used for anything else we know that it drops to 0 at by nightfall (possibly at turns end).

Also, provisions go by turn's start, not by day. See Archons entering GK's airspace and delaying the rations there.


Good points. But are there any character actions - specifically casting in this case - that go by day? AFAIK, they all go by turn, or are permanent such as terrain alterations.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby LordAcme » Sat May 03, 2014 10:28 am

Lamech wrote:
LordAcme wrote:“And I shall have one spell upon me,” said Posbrake, with intense conviction. “A Carnymancy spell. A spell that breaks the rules. A spell that says, ‘this unit, for this turn, cannot be hit by any ranged attack.”

Ruh roh. Either we have a continuity error, or....

Spoiler: show
Dove renewed the spell on the last turn change. But, she would have had to do so at a distance through her window.


Guess we'll know next update!

"Turns" has multiple meanings. (Like "days" actually) It can mean a complete day night cycle: "Jillian has lived for 10,000 turns". Or here:
http://www.erfworld.com/2013/02/inner-p ... isode-062/
Jillian had never heard the word “years” before, but she somehow understood its meaning. Why would you need a word for a period of 365 turns, though? Stupid.

Or it can mean the time one side can act in the day night cycle. Language like English has words that mean multiple things.
This is presumably the complete day night cycle. No continuity error.


While what you're saying about the meaning of turns is true, it doesn't mean that "the ambiguity in the canon means there's no continuity error". This just doesn't look right. This was battle planning. Everyone in that room knew that turns do not actually equal days when you're fighting battles, and this particular point was the hidden linchpin of the entire strategy. Literally the most important thing that was said in the entire conversation.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby arbo » Sat May 03, 2014 11:04 am

spriteless wrote:
arbo wrote:
Arky wrote:if only he was wearing a hat, so that DigDoug could end up with a Creen's Cap to remind him of this event.


Well, at leasta Creen's shot.

And DigDoug ended up being Creen's saver.

How tough is he? Maybe Prince Creen is captured.


Oh, but he's so determined. Ultra high, Creen's resolution.
“Run this same calculation ten times in a row. Go.”
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby MonteCristo » Sat May 03, 2014 11:10 am

LordAcme wrote:
Lamech wrote:"Turns" has multiple meanings. (Like "days" actually) It can mean a complete day night cycle: "Jillian has lived for 10,000 turns". Or here:
http://www.erfworld.com/2013/02/inner-p ... isode-062/
Jillian had never heard the word “years” before, but she somehow understood its meaning. Why would you need a word for a period of 365 turns, though? Stupid.

Or it can mean the time one side can act in the day night cycle. Language like English has words that mean multiple things.
This is presumably the complete day night cycle. No continuity error.


While what you're saying about the meaning of turns is true, it doesn't mean that "the ambiguity in the canon means there's no continuity error". This just doesn't look right. This was battle planning. Everyone in that room knew that turns do not actually equal days when you're fighting battles, and this particular point was the hidden linchpin of the entire strategy. Literally the most important thing that was said in the entire conversation.


Who said that when talking battle that the default meaning of the word "turn" is just the turn of ONE side and not the whole day? As Lamech pointed out, there IS a precedent for referring to entire day as ONE turn. Posbrake said for one turn; he did not say till the end of Numlock's turn, or homekey's turn. Very well could be that "till the end of turn" means "till the end of the day" where as "till the end of OUR turn" means "till the end of one side's turn"
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Sat May 03, 2014 12:13 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:
0beron wrote:The attitude of Royalty seems to be make the Heir CWL and send him out into the field. Being such a valuable unit, I'm sure they are typically well-protected and rarely fight on the very front line of a given battle, but being present and participating no doubt gives them XP. So I imagine Creen is still of a respectable level and behaves similarly to Ansom in Book 1.


It seems Ansom was a particularly skilled Warlord, but as you say, it appears the commonly seen Heir/Chief Warlord combo is one of the toughest units in Erfworld. Even more so for Royal units.


Mrtyuh wrote:King Posbrake was formerly the Chief Warlord of Delkey, before he founded Homekey. King Minus seems to share many of Prince Creen's views, so that would indicate that all of Delkey's warlords are nobles, since they are the only ones fit to lead troops in battle. Posbrake is a utilitarian. Even as Chief Warlord, I imagine he would use all resources available to him. For those reasons, I would image Creen spent a fair amount of time in the field leading troops during his brother's tenure as Chief. Also, we've seen in Erfworld that magic items are extremely powerful, e.g. King Slately's raygun. Remember, Slately had only ever witnessed one battle, and that was from a well defended tower; he was effectively a Level-1 warlord, but his magic items allowed him to decimate his opponents. Creen's sword is a force multiplier in and of itself.


You guys are right, I think the problem was my assumption that "commisioned" Warlords, those that were popped as Warlords, "pay"/balance out for their leadership abilities by having less hp and etc than a dedicated fighter which was worth the same turns/schumckers in effect making them the "smart guys" who'se main beenfit is leadership and understanding tactics/strategy.

So to use a little DnD multiclass terminology: a Knight 2/Warlord 1 would loose out in leadership to a Warlord 3 but he could beat the single class Warlord in a duel.

But it's probably really that levels in Warlord make you both a great fighter and a great leader (bonus wise)

On another note I don't think Bucky tipped off Creen, it's just my gut but I think if Rob wanted that to happen he would have had Digdog overhear a bitter argumment between the two, instead the signs of their being anithing between Bucky and Posbrake were subtle and digdoug only learned of the old relationship by way of seeing a completely dispirited Bucky not a vengefull one.

I think the more probable explanation was that Dove's Carnymancy simply wasn't good enough to fool the Moneymancer and his report that DelKey deliberately sent a report forged with carnymancy was the straw that broke the camel's back, the camel being whatever patience Posbrake's father had had with him.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat May 03, 2014 12:47 pm

I like the idea that Bucky is a traitor. If Prosbreak is made a warlord, maybe she'll have a chance with him. Since she didn't do anything in the tower it'll either be that or she's at the bottom by the pit somewhere to interfere down there.

Unless the story includes the battle for the city later.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Godzfirefly » Sat May 03, 2014 12:55 pm

LordAcme wrote:Well that is actually true. I don't have an answer for that. I would presume that characters who are planning battles would take the fact that turns don't actually equal days into account when they speak though. It just doesn't make sense for them to introduce confusion into planning when life and Side is on the line, even if the misterm is commonly used.


You assume there would be confusion. There is a fair amount of precedent in Erfworld for information to be passed non-verbally along with verbally. They could know exactly which meaning of Turn was meant when it was said, even though the word is otherwise the same. Kinda like the Smurfs always knew what was meant when words were replaced with the word Smurf, even though just about any noun, adjective, or adverb could be replaced by the word Smurf.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lilwik » Sat May 03, 2014 3:02 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:I like the idea that Bucky is a traitor. If Posbrake is made a warlord, maybe she'll have a chance with him.
What could she possibly be expecting? She's currently Posbrake's chief of staff which seems to mean that she helps him with almost everything. If Posbrake abdicates then he might no longer need a chief of staff and if her position ceases to exist there's a chance that she'll be disbanded, especially after proving that she has low loyalty. She'd have to expect Posbrake to eventually discover that she betrayed him. At best she'll still be just a courtier, and most rulers use them for mere menial tasks and entertainment, while Posbrake spends a big portion of his time fighting battles where Bucky can't follow. Worse of all, she'd be ruled by Creen, and I can't imagine anyone wanting that.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Mrtyuh » Sun May 04, 2014 6:35 am

Prodigial_Knight wrote:You guys are right, I think the problem was my assumption that "commisioned" Warlords, those that were popped as Warlords, "pay"/balance out for their leadership abilities by having less hp and etc than a dedicated fighter which was worth the same turns/schumckers in effect making them the "smart guys" who'se main beenfit is leadership and understanding tactics/strategy.

So to use a little DnD multiclass terminology: a Knight 2/Warlord 1 would loose out in leadership to a Warlord 3 but he could beat the single class Warlord in a duel.

But it's probably really that levels in Warlord make you both a great fighter and a great leader (bonus wise)

Actually, it would be the opposite. We know from Parson's Klog #9 that "Royal and noble units have slightly stronger stats, and level faster." So, if a royal/noble warlord fought a commoner/promoted warlord of the same level, the royal/noble would be slightly stronger. To make matters worse, assuming a royal/noble warlord with 10K XP faced a commoner/promoted warlord with the same XP, you might have a L5 royal/noble fighting a L4 (to use completely arbitrary numbers). Royalty is the ultimate munchkin class in Erfworld.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Sun May 04, 2014 8:50 am

Mrtyuh wrote:
Prodigial_Knight wrote:You guys are right, I think the problem was my assumption that "commisioned" Warlords, those that were popped as Warlords, "pay"/balance out for their leadership abilities by having less hp and etc than a dedicated fighter which was worth the same turns/schumckers in effect making them the "smart guys" who'se main beenfit is leadership and understanding tactics/strategy.

So to use a little DnD multiclass terminology: a Knight 2/Warlord 1 would loose out in leadership to a Warlord 3 but he could beat the single class Warlord in a duel.

But it's probably really that levels in Warlord make you both a great fighter and a great leader (bonus wise)

Actually, it would be the opposite. We know from Parson's Klog #9 that "Royal and noble units have slightly stronger stats, and level faster." So, if a royal/noble warlord fought a commoner/promoted warlord of the same level, the royal/noble would be slightly stronger. To make matters worse, assuming a royal/noble warlord with 10K XP faced a commoner/promoted warlord with the same XP, you might have a L5 royal/noble fighting a L4 (to use completely arbitrary numbers). Royalty is the ultimate munchkin class in Erfworld.


True I gave that example without taking into account royal/noble bonuses, which in DnD terms would be a template and as you said broken as it appears to have 0 drawbacks, to illustrate what I thought were the trade-offs between a commissioned Warlord and a field commissioned Warlord.

If we look at the practical situation Creen has the royal advantage against Peck in addition to having been popped as a Warlord (+ his lightsaber).

Now I want to know if the bonuses derived from nobility are uniform or they vary with rank, an interesting case study Cesar is the CW under Don a very practical King and much is made of him being the lowest level of nobility yet still Don didn't appoint a promoted warlord but I might be over thinking things and Cesar was just the best Warlord at the time.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby 0beron » Sun May 04, 2014 11:52 am

Honestly, we have no actual factual basis for believing that popped Warlords are better than promoted ones, in either stats or mental ability. The only thing we do know for sure is that ROYAL Warlords have better stats than both those who are popped on non-royal sides or those who are promoted. If anything, I think that's Creen's beef. He's saying that Peck is not as good as a Royal Warlord that Posbroke could have popped instead. If Peck was instead a popped Warlord that Posbroke had acquired though trade with a non-royal side, I'm sure Creen would have the same attitude.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Iranon » Sun May 04, 2014 12:40 pm

Most interesting thing to me in this update are the explicit grievances against Posbrake. Do Minus and Prince Creen have a point?

Homekey, like Haffaton, is toxic. Not getting much value out of the land, but posing a considerable challenge to would-be-invaders without corresponding rewards. Some sort of pre-emptive scorched earth policy and learning to live in it.

Folklore often holds royalty to have a spiritual connection to the land, and even without that: Some would find it objectionable to gear up one's economy to create an oversized army and fortified hellholes instead of thriving cities.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Xarx » Sun May 04, 2014 1:01 pm

The trade-off, if theres is one, may come down to cost or time. How much of your productivity will be tied up in popping a new noble warlord vs. how much it will cost to promote a common one.

But really I think it's more a matter of merit. Yes, a noble warlord has better stats and levels faster, and that's great, but there's no guarantee that he won't be a twit. Some rulers might prefer to put proven warriors in command.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Lilwik » Sun May 04, 2014 2:40 pm

Iranon wrote:Some would find it objectionable to gear up one's economy to create an oversized army and fortified hellholes instead of thriving cities.
It's not really a bad thing in this situation. Unless a side does something extraordinary it has no hope of living in peace. Just like the So-be-it Union lives in peace by protecting itself from attack with a mutual defense treaty, Homekey protects itself from attack with low-value, highly fortified cities and a large army. The So-be-it Union is clearly better, but not everyone can be so lucky. Posbrake seems to be doing the best he can for his side with the tools that he has available.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 18

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Sun May 04, 2014 4:03 pm

Iranon wrote:Most interesting thing to me in this update are the explicit grievances against Posbrake. Do Minus and Prince Creen have a point?

Homekey, like Haffaton, is toxic. Not getting much value out of the land, but posing a considerable challenge to would-be-invaders without corresponding rewards. Some sort of pre-emptive scorched earth policy and learning to live in it.

Folklore often holds royalty to have a spiritual connection to the land, and even without that: Some would find it objectionable to gear up one's economy to create an oversized army and fortified hellholes instead of thriving cities.


I wouldn't say quite "toxic" but looking at it from Minus and Creen's perspective on Posbrake's stategy, first a very very bird's eye view comparison:

Traditional strategy:
Defense (sustainability): Use X % of your revenue on building up/rebuilding powerfull defensive cities which also have better revenue
Offense (growth): Use (100 - X) % of revenue to field armies and take cities but don't pillage them unless absolutely needed because ypou want them high level for when they need to contirubute to defense

Posbreak strategy:
Defense (sustainability): Use Y % ( Y is smaller than X) of your revenue on building up/rebuilding cities, use Dirtamancy to make them as defensive as higher level cities use the small gains a opponent would get from them as additional detterent, the big problem is that you lack the revenue from pottentialy higher level cities
Offense (growth): Use (100 - Y) % of revenue to field armies and take cities and pillage them to get more revenue for more armies, this also plays into your defensive game as a detterent.

Now It's easy to see why Posbrake's strategy has brought him wins, he has figured out how to deploy a larger offensive force than his traditional thinking enemies while maintaining a equal defense.

Yet I think the problem is sustainability, what happens when Posbrake runs out of enemies to conquer, for example he conquers Numlock and finds that they were standing at the base of mountain hexes Posbrake now has a very large army and cities which don't have much revenue due to their low level + the penalties for being a bigger side.

What does he do, decomission his army, transition back into a traditional sustainable model ?

Revamping his side could take time and even worse what if he is the one attacked while being in defensive mode, his offense first strategy works great only if he is on the offensive.

These are legitimate fears Posbrake will have when he runs out of space to grow into, and Minus will find himself right next door to a side which needs to conquer in order to survive.
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